Do you miss larger sensors?

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 54,512
Re: RX10 compared to Sony A7Riv with Tamron 28-200mm f/2.8-5.6 Di III RX?

Ab S wrote:

I always had in mind that the successor of my RX10 will be the RX10iv, now I am doubting..

Why?

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Tom

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Jerry R
Jerry R Forum Pro • Posts: 11,698
How is the RX10 at 24mm?

Here are a few pics at 24mm/f8 and 100 ISO. I have seen lots of pics at 600mm (eq) but can some post a few pics comparable to these:

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Foto4x4 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
Re: RX10 compared to Sony A7Riv with Tamron 28-200mm f/2.8-5.6 Di III RX?

tbcass wrote:

Foto4x4 wrote:

It may have been my post. I can't completely supply what you wanted but the following may help you and others when considering the options.

1. Camera Size.

I always found the RX10III or IV rather bulky for a "compact". Clearly the A7RIV + 28-200 sent much different in many ways.

That's not a valid comparison because you should show the A7RIV with lenses necessary to cover 24-600mm. As far as bulky. I actually prefer the feel and handling of bulky cameras and consider the RX10IV a bit on the small side.

Tom, he was actually asking about the Tamron 28-200 and the thread is about would I miss larger sensors. I’m just a casual visitor to these forums now and so I will now butt out…

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Cheers, John
Quote: “A good photograph is knowing where to stand.” - Ansel Adams

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Ab S
Ab S Senior Member • Posts: 1,119
Re: RX10 compared to Sony A7Riv with Tamron 28-200mm f/2.8-5.6 Di III RX?

Foto4x4 wrote:

Ab S wrote:

Somewhere in thread of this very interesting topic I read the about the combination of Sony FF with the Tamron 28-200mm f/2.8-5.6 Di III RXD lens (unfortunately I cannot recall who posted).

A sony A7Riv in combination with this lens would not be significantly larger than the RX10iv (I don't look at the price tag here). Okay, you don't have 24 mm on the lens and also no 600 mm, but with the 61 mp of the A7Riv you can do some cropping (to 350 mm equiv @ 20 mp - the resolution of the RX10iv).

Since cropping will most of the time be in the center of the FOV you will have optimal sharpness of the lens.

It would be very interesting if someone here on the forum has both the a Sony FF with this Tamron and an RX10 camera, to see a sharpness/resolution comparison (with enough light allowing base iso value of the RX10 camera).

Somebody?

I always had in mind that the successor of my RX10 will be the RX10iv, now I am doubting..

PS: For resolution arguments I would not change a RX10 camera (20 mp) with a FF of 24 or even 30 mp (except for low light), but the A7Riv with its 61 mp would be interesting: a combination with this Tamron lens for travel and all the freedom to use other lenses for specific situation.

It may have been my post. I can't completely supply what you wanted but the following may help you and others when considering the options.

1. Camera Size.

I always found the RX10III or IV rather bulky for a "compact". Clearly the A7RIV + 28-200 sent much different in many ways.

2. Image Quality.

I don't have the RX10III anymore, so I can't take an exact same scene but I did find two similar images taken some time apart. Unfortunately I don't have water dragon shot with my 28-200 in anything like similar conditions. However these two are both taken at 600mm eqv focal length though the FF one is taken with a 100-400GM so it does resolve very well. For the record, both have been post processed with some sharpening and noise reduction.

A7RIII:

I took this with an A7RIII in crop mode so the resulting image is about 20Mp

RX10III:

I considered this at the time I shot it as one of the sharpest images I ever took with the RX10III. It still pleases me and certainly show off the lens and sensor pretty well

Tamron 28-200:

Here is an example of what the 28-200 is capable of. For a superzoom, it's about as good as it gets in my view. Since I took this photo, I have updated to an A7RIV but really there isn't that big a gap between the two.

In your PS, you make a completely valid observation. I tried M4/3 for a time, an EM1.2 plus a couple of pro lenses which at the time easily were better than Sony's APS-C offerings. When I started to consider FF, I realised that like your comment, why switch systems unless I gain some significant advantage. To try out my theory, I bought a secondhand A7RII and I quickly realised the advantage of extra MPs. So much so that I sold all my M4/3 and APS-C gear to fund the transition. I have so enjoyed the move that I've bought several G and GM lenses (see my gear list) but wanting a very flexible lens I bought the Tamron and it has not disappointed me. I use it mainly for travel but there are times I need faster due to light and background blur and either wider or longer. Although a RX10III of IV provide some range advantages, they cannot go wide enough, fast enough and even though they're not bad at 600mm, they cannot compete with Sony's 200-600G for wildlife (I am happy with the 100-400GM with a T/C because of size and close focus advantages).

Again, I am not knocking the RX10s or RX100s for that matter, I love having the RX100VI and will keep it until it dies since it's so darn versatile for its size, but I was simply not satisfied enough (FOR ME) with them to be my only camera and once I started shooting with FF, I completely stopped using the RX10III so it got sold. About the only thing I may look at in the future is a successor to the A7C. Right now, the first version has too many compromises to warrant investing. But the compactness with decent lenses does have some appeal. whether it's worth getting while I have the RX100VI is something I would grapple with.

Take the foregoing with a grain of salt if you disagree. that's fine by me.

Thanks, this is really informative! The results at the 200 mm end of the Tamron lens coupled to the A7R are really amazing, I think also in absolute sense (not only for a superzoom)! If you have some more examples of the Tamron (also at other focal lengths and aperture value) I would be very thankful!

Kind regards,

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Ab

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 54,512
Not from RX10 model

EXIF says ILCE-7

Jerry R wrote:

Here are a few pics at 24mm/f8 and 100 ISO. I have seen lots of pics at 600mm (eq) but can some post a few pics comparable to these:

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Tom

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Jerry R
Jerry R Forum Pro • Posts: 11,698
Re: Not from RX10 model

Tom,

Sorry, these are FF. I was interested in what similar 1" pics looked like.

Jerry

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Ab S
Ab S Senior Member • Posts: 1,119
Re: RX10 compared to Sony A7Riv with Tamron 28-200mm f/2.8-5.6 Di III RX?

tbcass wrote:

Ab S wrote:

I always had in mind that the successor of my RX10 will be the RX10iv, now I am doubting..

Why?

Image quality of RX10 compared to A7Riv in combi with the Tamron 28-200 mm for travel photography in the overlapping equivalent focal length range.

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Ab

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Ab S
Ab S Senior Member • Posts: 1,119
Re: How is the RX10 at 24mm?

Jerry R wrote:

Here are a few pics at 24mm/f8 and 100 ISO. I have seen lots of pics at 600mm (eq) but can some post a few pics comparable to these:

Here are some examples with the RX10 at 24 mm equiv; the RX10iv will be similar or may be even slighter better. I Think this is pretty good..

Riga

Riga

Riga

Ab

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Ab S
Ab S Senior Member • Posts: 1,119
Re: How is the RX10 at 24mm?

..I have to add that all my images are processed in C1 with sharpening 'to taste'..

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Ab

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 54,512
Not an easy choice
1

Ab S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Ab S wrote:

I always had in mind that the successor of my RX10 will be the RX10iv, now I am doubting..

Why?

Image quality of RX10 compared to A7Riv in combi with the Tamron 28-200 mm for travel photography in the overlapping equivalent focal length range.

I understand. As someone who owns both a Sony Full Frame (42mp not 61mp) and an RX10iv, I find the IQ difference very small and not significant below ISO 800 but your opinion may differ. I wonder if the Tamron lens is as sharp as the RX10iv lens. Because the RX10iv lens is optimized for that body and sensor it tends to be sharper than FF superzooms.

Personally, I could never be happy with only an RX10iv or only a Full Frame because each has its strengths and weaknesses. I also own an RX100VII for walk-around convenience.

Another consideration is the cost. The A7Riv/Tamron choice is twice as expensive as an RX10iv. In APSC mode, you are losing the 350-600mm range. In FF mode you lose the 24-28mm range. Also, consider the A7RIII which is 42mp and $1000 cheaper than the IV right now. That still gives you 18mp in APSC mode. That combined with an RX10iv would give you the best of both worlds.

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Tom

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 54,512
Re: RX10 compared to Sony A7Riv with Tamron 28-200mm f/2.8-5.6 Di III RX?

Foto4x4 wrote:

That's not a valid comparison because you should show the A7RIV with lenses necessary to cover 24-600mm. As far as bulky. I actually prefer the feel and handling of bulky cameras and consider the RX10IV a bit on the small side.

Tom, he was actually asking about the Tamron 28-200 and the thread is about would I miss larger sensors. I’m just a casual visitor to these forums now and so I will now butt out…

Sorry, I missed that.

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Tom

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 54,512
Re: How is the RX10 at 24mm?

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Tom

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ChuckB Contributing Member • Posts: 748
Re: Do you miss larger sensors?
1

richarddd wrote:

The RX10 iii's 600mm equivalent has a much smaller aperture than the FF camera's 600mm. The RX10 has an aperture of 220/4 = 55mm, while the FF camera's is 600/4 = 150mm. The FF equivalent with the same aperture would be 600mm, f/11.

If you care about DOF and noise, that's a major difference.

DOF at 600mm?? I want all I can get. Advantage small sensor system. Noise? Speaking only for myself and the kind of pictures I take, it can be fixed in post 95% of the time, if it's needed at all.

Yes, FF with a great lens gives 'better' IQ but at age 76 the ergonomics are more important.

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Jerry R
Jerry R Forum Pro • Posts: 11,698
Re: How is the RX10 at 24mm?

Thanks Ab,

They are nice, any with a wider FOV?

Jerry

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Jerry R
Jerry R Forum Pro • Posts: 11,698
Re: How is the RX10 at 24mm?

Thanks Tom,

Looks good for Travel.

Jerry

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Sony R1, NEX C3 & 5R ,Sony A7.
Lenses: 24mm, f/1.8, FE 24-70, f/4, & FE 70-200, f/4.
Nikon V1 + 10-30 & 30-110 lenses.

tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 54,512
Re: How is the RX10 at 24mm?

Jerry R wrote:

Thanks Tom,

Looks good for Travel.

Jerry

I can't think of a better more convenient travel camera.

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Tom

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richarddd
richarddd Veteran Member • Posts: 3,416
Re: Do you miss larger sensors?

ChuckB wrote:

richarddd wrote:

The RX10 iii's 600mm equivalent has a much smaller aperture than the FF camera's 600mm. The RX10 has an aperture of 220/4 = 55mm, while the FF camera's is 600/4 = 150mm. The FF equivalent with the same aperture would be 600mm, f/11.

If you care about DOF and noise, that's a major difference.

DOF at 600mm?? I want all I can get. Advantage small sensor system. Noise? Speaking only for myself and the kind of pictures I take, it can be fixed in post 95% of the time, if it's needed at all.

Yes, FF with a great lens gives 'better' IQ but at age 76 the ergonomics are more important.

You can stop down on FF, so there's no real DOF advantage to small sensor. Perhaps you can stop down more on the small sensor lens, but you're likely to run into diffraction issues that essentially negate any DOF increases.

Sometimes people want shallower DOF, in which case FF has an advantage.

At the same DOF (and shutter speed and scene illumination and number of MP) there's no real advantage to FF over a smaller sensor of the same general generation.

As to acceptable noise, lens quality and ergonomics, de gustibus non est disputandum. I'd take the trade-off in favor of a light weight system most of the time.

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Ed B
Ed B Forum Pro • Posts: 12,021
Re: Do you miss larger sensors?

richarddd wrote:

At the same DOF (and shutter speed and scene illumination and number of MP) there's no real advantage to FF over a smaller sensor of the same general generation.

I'm still trying to process this, but I don't think I agree with you.

If I let the camera make the decisions and shoot in Program mode with my full frame camera, it defaults to f4.0, 1/80 for almost all natural light, indoor images and adjusts the ISO to whatever setting is necessary to provide a good, noise free, image.

I don't know of any one inch sensor camera that's going to come anywhere near the quality it provides at f4.0, 1/80.

Naturally, if I'm shooting in aperture priority, I might choose a smaller aperture that would produce a narrower DOF and require a lower ISO setting.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way.

Ab S
Ab S Senior Member • Posts: 1,119
Re: Not an easy choice

tbcass wrote:

Ab S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Ab S wrote:

I always had in mind that the successor of my RX10 will be the RX10iv, now I am doubting..

Why?

Image quality of RX10 compared to A7Riv in combi with the Tamron 28-200 mm for travel photography in the overlapping equivalent focal length range.

I understand. As someone who owns both a Sony Full Frame (42mp not 61mp) and an RX10iv, I find the IQ difference very small and not significant below ISO 800 but your opinion may differ. I wonder if the Tamron lens is as sharp as the RX10iv lens. Because the RX10iv lens is optimized for that body and sensor it tends to be sharper than FF superzooms.

Personally, I could never be happy with only an RX10iv or only a Full Frame because each has its strengths and weaknesses. I also own an RX100VII for walk-around convenience.

Another consideration is the cost. The A7Riv/Tamron choice is twice as expensive as an RX10iv. In APSC mode, you are losing the 350-600mm range. In FF mode you lose the 24-28mm range. Also, consider the A7RIII which is 42mp and $1000 cheaper than the IV right now. That still gives you 18mp in APSC mode. That combined with an RX10iv would give you the best of both worlds.

..I was really impressed by the picture from Foto4x4 https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65684501 with the Tamron 28-200 mm together with the A7R. I don't think you can even match that with an RX10..

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Ab

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Ab S
Ab S Senior Member • Posts: 1,119
Re: How is the RX10 at 24mm?

Jerry R wrote:

Thanks Ab,

They are nice, any with a wider FOV?

Jerry

..no, 24 mm equivalent is the widest for the RX series.

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Ab

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