Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

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jerryf128 Contributing Member • Posts: 885
Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

I don't understand it but it is interesting. It taks about adding pixels etc. I thought some here might be interested in it. The prosecution wants to enter images that have been enlarged, the defense says enlarged images are distorted, and unusable.

robgendreau Veteran Member • Posts: 9,737
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

jerryf128 wrote:

I don't understand it but it is interesting. It taks about adding pixels etc. I thought some here might be interested in it. The prosecution wants to enter images that have been enlarged, the defense says enlarged images are distorted, and unusable.

They wanted to do a pinch zoom. The defense want to defend, and well, distort The whole thing seemed silly, and made the judge and the defense attorney look like complete morons. You can see the exchanges in gory detail here:https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/11/rittenhouse-trial-judge-disallows-ipad-pinch-to-zoom-read-the-bizarre-transcript/

No wonder no one wants to be on a jury.

OP jerryf128 Contributing Member • Posts: 885
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.
1

I am not sure if that is what they were talking about, when I watched it. I think they were talking about an image taken from a drone, and enlarged the image with a special forensic program adding pixels?? The drone was flying over the riot occurring in the city.

gordonpritchard Veteran Member • Posts: 4,960
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.
1

jerryf128 wrote:

I am not sure if that is what they were talking about, when I watched it. I think they were talking about an image taken from a drone, and enlarged the image with a special forensic program adding pixels?? The drone was flying over the riot occurring in the city.

They were talking about and conflating two separate things.

First - viewing the drone footage enlarged by using the pinch zoom function on an iPad/iphone to enlarge the displayed video/image.

Second - Viewing the drone footage/image uprezzed by an expert using a dedicated video/image editing application (e.g. going from 720p to 1080p or 2k to 4k).

If the pixels don't fit you must acquit.

Sad.

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OP jerryf128 Contributing Member • Posts: 885
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

I didn't understand it, but thought it was kind of interesting to listen to.

Glad.

Smiles123 Regular Member • Posts: 147
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

The defense attorney was trying to challenge the credibility of the witness.  The witness had enlarged pictures and by challenging his credibility, he was hoping the judge would rule the pictures inadmissible.

The defense attorney asked a question, “if you enlarge a smartphone picture to a 5x7 print are you adding pixels. “The expert witness said yes. He was obviously wrong.

gordonpritchard Veteran Member • Posts: 4,960
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.
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Smiles123 wrote:

The defense attorney asked a question, “if you enlarge a smartphone picture to a 5x7 print are you adding pixels. “The expert witness said yes. He was obviously wrong.

That's how you recognize an expert witness. LOL

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Major Jack Reacher
Major Jack Reacher Senior Member • Posts: 1,554
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.
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jerryf128 wrote:

I am not sure if that is what they were talking about, when I watched it. I think they were talking about an image taken from a drone, and enlarged the image with a special forensic program adding pixels?? The drone was flying over the riot occurring in the city.

I watched that also.   You are correct, they were discussing "captures" from drone video.   They used a few "captures" of Kyle, that Prosecutors were trying to claim proved Kyle Rittenhouse was seen pointing a hand gun at someone.   They had to ENLARGE those photos for clarity purposes to try to prove their case.   Evidently the images were very small crops from the drone video, and highly distorted.  So they (Prosecutors) hired someone to try to enlarge them using forensic software.   They were trying to explain to the Judge how "Interpolation" works, and the Judge did not understand it at all.

Bottom line was the Prosecutors were simply trying to prove Kyle lied on the witness stand when he said he never pointed his guns at anybody BEFORE those three guys started attacking him.   The Defense Attorneys were claiming the interpolation process could have added pixels, (which it clearly does) and could have created a photo that was not an accurate photo depending on how many pixels it added, and what color those added pixels created.

Since we were unable to see the original photos, compared to the enlarged photos, it is hard to determine exactly what the interpolation process actually created.   The Defense team was simply objecting because the photos WERE ALTERED via interpolation.

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OP jerryf128 Contributing Member • Posts: 885
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

Very interesting.

Ho72
Ho72 Senior Member • Posts: 2,447
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.
1

Smiles123 wrote:

The defense attorney asked a question, “if you enlarge a smartphone picture to a 5x7 print are you adding pixels. “The expert witness said yes. He was obviously wrong.

Wouldn't that depend on the phone used and the quality setting selected for images?

Vernon D Rainwater Forum Pro • Posts: 14,700
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.
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Major Jack Reacher wrote:

jerryf128 wrote:

I am not sure if that is what they were talking about, when I watched it. I think they were talking about an image taken from a drone, and enlarged the image with a special forensic program adding pixels?? The drone was flying over the riot occurring in the city.

I watched that also. You are correct, they were discussing "captures" from drone video. They used a few "captures" of Kyle, that Prosecutors were trying to claim proved Kyle Rittenhouse was seen pointing a hand gun at someone. They had to ENLARGE those photos for clarity purposes to try to prove their case. Evidently the images were very small crops from the drone video, and highly distorted. So they (Prosecutors) hired someone to try to enlarge them using forensic software. They were trying to explain to the Judge how "Interpolation" works, and the Judge did not understand it at all.

Bottom line was the Prosecutors were simply trying to prove Kyle lied on the witness stand when he said he never pointed his guns at anybody BEFORE those three guys started attacking him. The Defense Attorneys were claiming the interpolation process could have added pixels, (which it clearly does) and could have created a photo that was not an accurate photo depending on how many pixels it added, and what color those added pixels created.

Since we were unable to see the original photos, compared to the enlarged photos, it is hard to determine exactly what the interpolation process actually created. The Defense team was simply objecting because the photos WERE ALTERED via interpolation.

Images altered in any way should not be presentable in court, news media, or any other purpose of that type.

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Vernon...

ppage
ppage Senior Member • Posts: 2,446
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.
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Ho72 wrote:

Smiles123 wrote:

The defense attorney asked a question, “if you enlarge a smartphone picture to a 5x7 print are you adding pixels. “The expert witness said yes. He was obviously wrong.

Wouldn't that depend on the phone used and the quality setting selected for images?

It absolutely would.

ppage
ppage Senior Member • Posts: 2,446
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Images altered in any way should not be presentable in court, news media, or any other purpose of that type.

What if the photographer shot in raw?  Just converting the image to any viewable format (jpeg, tiff, whatever) alters the image.

gordonpritchard Veteran Member • Posts: 4,960
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

ppage wrote:

Ho72 wrote:

Smiles123 wrote:

The defense attorney asked a question, “if you enlarge a smartphone picture to a 5x7 print are you adding pixels. “The expert witness said yes. He was obviously wrong.

Wouldn't that depend on the phone used and the quality setting selected for images?

It absolutely would.

How would the phone brand or the quality setting selected for images affect whether you are adding pixels or not?

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mangurian Contributing Member • Posts: 917
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

g

Second - Viewing the drone footage/image uprezzed by an expert using a dedicated video/image editing application (e.g. going from 720p to 1080p or 2k to 4k).

Calling the poor guy an expert is funny. He understood nothing and only knows how to press on "run" with his mouse.

An expert would take the frame(s) in question and use every available method to blow it up. The do a analysis/comparison. He said he never even compared the enlarged image against the original. Why would a competent software tech work for the gov't when they can make 2-3 times as much in private industry?

Where is Gigapixel when you need it?

Major Jack Reacher
Major Jack Reacher Senior Member • Posts: 1,554
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

ppage wrote:

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Images altered in any way should not be presentable in court, news media, or any other purpose of that type.

What if the photographer shot in raw? Just converting the image to any viewable format (jpeg, tiff, whatever) alters the image.

Major difference between bringing out details that are ALREADY in the raw file, compared to ADDING PIXELS to an image based solely on what the software interprets.

Processing a raw file is not adding pixels that the camera did not capture.  It (raw file) is simply an unprocessed file that the camera itself applied no adjustments to, like sharpening, white balance, tint, shadows, highlights, etc, etc.   Interpolation is the act of ADDING pixels to a file that is too small.   When you take a very small image, and try to increase the size of that file to say 8x10, you may need to add a million pixels that the software itself creates.   Those pixels being added are completely subject to the interpolation method being used, and "could" create an image that is simply no longer accurate.

In this case, the Prosecutors are trying to take a very small cropped part of an image, and enlarge it, and trying to prove that Mr. Rittenhouse had a gun in his hand and pointing it at someone.    Of course, it would require all of us to look at the original image, and the enlarged images to see how much the interpolation changed the photos.   We are not afforded those options though.

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Major Jack Reacher
Major Jack Reacher Senior Member • Posts: 1,554
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Major Jack Reacher wrote:

jerryf128 wrote:

I am not sure if that is what they were talking about, when I watched it. I think they were talking about an image taken from a drone, and enlarged the image with a special forensic program adding pixels?? The drone was flying over the riot occurring in the city.

I watched that also. You are correct, they were discussing "captures" from drone video. They used a few "captures" of Kyle, that Prosecutors were trying to claim proved Kyle Rittenhouse was seen pointing a hand gun at someone. They had to ENLARGE those photos for clarity purposes to try to prove their case. Evidently the images were very small crops from the drone video, and highly distorted. So they (Prosecutors) hired someone to try to enlarge them using forensic software. They were trying to explain to the Judge how "Interpolation" works, and the Judge did not understand it at all.

Bottom line was the Prosecutors were simply trying to prove Kyle lied on the witness stand when he said he never pointed his guns at anybody BEFORE those three guys started attacking him. The Defense Attorneys were claiming the interpolation process could have added pixels, (which it clearly does) and could have created a photo that was not an accurate photo depending on how many pixels it added, and what color those added pixels created.

Since we were unable to see the original photos, compared to the enlarged photos, it is hard to determine exactly what the interpolation process actually created. The Defense team was simply objecting because the photos WERE ALTERED via interpolation.

Images altered in any way should not be presentable in court, news media, or any other purpose of that type.

I can see using enlarged photographs if they help solve a case.  One example would be to enlarge a license plate to track a car and prove that car might have been at the scene of a crime.   In that case, the license plate just leads to the car and potential suspects, and then you would have to do more investigations.   The jury would have to decide if the images have been ALTERED beyond reasonable, and the forensic experts would clearly need to testify that the images reflect a real and truthful depiction of the photograph.

Now, if you take a photograph of a suspect that is small, small, small and increase it in size, then the jury would REALLY have to consider whether the alteration via interpolation created an unreasonable depiction of the suspect.   Tough call, and in this case, both attorneys argued over these photographs and the Judge ended up making a ruling that the jury could see the photos, but the Prosecutor COULD NOT state during closing arguments that Kyle lied.   The Judge simply did not find sufficient evidence in the photographs to clearly see that Kyle lied.   But, he allowed the photographs to be entered if the Jury wanted to view them, themselves.   Personally, I agree with you on altered and enlarged photographs, but I can see their use, SOMETIMES.

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ppage
ppage Senior Member • Posts: 2,446
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

Major Jack Reacher wrote:

ppage wrote:

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Images altered in any way should not be presentable in court, news media, or any other purpose of that type.

What if the photographer shot in raw? Just converting the image to any viewable format (jpeg, tiff, whatever) alters the image.

Major difference between bringing out details that are ALREADY in the raw file, compared to ADDING PIXELS to an image based solely on what the software interprets.

Processing a raw file is not adding pixels that the camera did not capture. It (raw file) is simply an unprocessed file that the camera itself applied no adjustments to, like sharpening, white balance, tint, shadows, highlights, etc, etc. Interpolation is the act of ADDING pixels to a file that is too small. When you take a very small image, and try to increase the size of that file to say 8x10, you may need to add a million pixels that the software itself creates. Those pixels being added are completely subject to the interpolation method being used, and "could" create an image that is simply no longer accurate.

In this case, the Prosecutors are trying to take a very small cropped part of an image, and enlarge it, and trying to prove that Mr. Rittenhouse had a gun in his hand and pointing it at someone. Of course, it would require all of us to look at the original image, and the enlarged images to see how much the interpolation changed the photos. We are not afforded those options though.

Yes there is a big difference technically; nevertheless a blanket statement like "images altered in any way should not be presentable in court" might be broad enough in the minds of technically illiterate judges and/or juries to exclude a converted raw file if a lawyer trying to make his case or 'unmake' his opponent's case argues it well.   That's the only point I wanted to make.

Vernon D Rainwater Forum Pro • Posts: 14,700
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

ppage wrote:

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Images altered in any way should not be presentable in court, news media, or any other purpose of that type.

What if the photographer shot in raw? Just converting the image to any viewable format (jpeg, tiff, whatever) alters the image.

Before converting RAW to JPG, TIF, etc -- in raw, it is NOT even a Photographic image since at that stage, it is just a "mass" of pixels -- not a Photograph.

There are printing Programs that can "print from Raw" but behind the scene, it really just converts the RAW content into one of the Photo formats such as JPG ot TIF then prints.

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Vernon...

Ho72
Ho72 Senior Member • Posts: 2,447
Re: Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial digital image inlarging question.

Nikon used to have a forensic mode, or words to that effect. Not sure what ever happened to it.

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