Maybe Nikon's waiting for the Z9 hype to die down before sending DSLRs out with a bang

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
ARClark
ARClark Veteran Member • Posts: 4,672
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

mainoo wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

Any way we slice it, Nikon benefits from priming the customer enthusiasm pump and announcing downmarket products build around Z9 features & functionality as soon as possible. That only results in more people being excited about what's coming from Nikon.

No, not as soon as possible. Nikon's nest bet is to thoroughly soak up the Z9 market before releasing anything further. I predict the following timeline

Dec 2021. Nikon Z9 - if the demand stories are true, it'll take a year for everyone who wants one to get one. More people will jump on board if the camera lives up to the hype.

Dec 2022 Nikon Z8 - slimmed down version of Z9 (same form factor) with key features in place but priced at USD 3K+.

Dec 2023. Nikon Z6/7 III - same form factor - AF finally fixed and some features from Z9 (if they are smart, they'll keep the LCD) and priced same as now.

Dec 2024 Nikon ZX - they'll be working on this now to ensure that they retain the advantage they have over the rest of the field. Then rinse and repeat.

You guys are not far apart. There are differences between leaking, teasing announcing and releasing. I think your release schedule is not unreasonable. But to Bill’s point, leaking or trading some specs not too far down the road would be helpful to those waiting on the inevitable smaller body form and giving them planning horizon.

 ARClark's gear list:ARClark's gear list
Nikon 500mm F5.6E PF Nikon D850 Nikon Z9 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm F2.8G IF-ED VR +14 more
mainoo Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

mainoo wrote:

Dec 2023. Nikon Z6/7 III - same form factor - AF finally fixed and some features from Z9 (if they are smart, they'll keep the LCD) and priced same as now.

by which I mean that the Z6/7 form factor is retained establishing one range for the small is beautiful crowd and another for those who like rubenesque DSLRs (D3/4/5/6). Maybe even a grip-optional Z8/9 body, as well. They can then reasonably say good-bye to the DSLR whilst retaining (and, if the tech lives up to the hype, even winning) market share.

mainoo Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

ARClark wrote:

You guys are not far apart. There are differences between leaking, teasing announcing and releasing. I think your release schedule is not unreasonable. But to Bill’s point, leaking or trading some specs not too far down the road would be helpful to those waiting on the inevitable smaller body form and giving them planning horizon.

but wouldn't that dilute their market share?. Right now, the Z9 has created a phenomenal buzz. If I had the money, I'd have ordered one straightaway. I'm still scheming and as long as there's no Z8 on the horizon, I'll keep trying to get the money. If I succeed before Dec 2022, I'll buy the Z9. If I know for certain that a Z8 is coming, I will definitely wait for it instead, as, I think, would many who are now planning to buy the Z9.

Craftsman70 Contributing Member • Posts: 699
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

mainoo wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

Any way we slice it, Nikon benefits from priming the customer enthusiasm pump and announcing downmarket products build around Z9 features & functionality as soon as possible. That only results in more people being excited about what's coming from Nikon.

No, not as soon as possible. Nikon's nest bet is to thoroughly soak up the Z9 market before releasing anything further. I predict the following timeline

Dec 2021. Nikon Z9 - if the demand stories are true, it'll take a year for everyone who wants one to get one. More people will jump on board if the camera lives up to the hype.

Dec 2022 Nikon Z8 - slimmed down version of Z9 (same form factor) with key features in place but priced at USD 3K+.

Dec 2023. Nikon Z6/7 III - same form factor - AF finally fixed and some features from Z9 (if they are smart, they'll keep the LCD) and priced same as now.

Dec 2024 Nikon ZX - they'll be working on this now to ensure that they retain the advantage they have over the rest of the field. Then rinse and repeat.

That might be a bit too dense of a release schedule for Nikon considering that by some time next year, their DX offerings in the Z lineup would be getting very old and thin.  I suspect that Nikon will increase their Z DX line up sooner rather than later and run with the FX horses for now.

After all, they have many in the DX area using older cameras for several years now.  Many of them may feel the need to move on just like how they left the D300s as their top DX model for too many years before the D500 was introduced.  The D500 is approaching that point now.

 Craftsman70's gear list:Craftsman70's gear list
Nikon D200 Nikon D7000 Nikon D7200 Nikon D780 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED VR +14 more
mainoo Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...
2

Craftsman70 wrote:

Dec 2021. Nikon Z9 - if the demand stories are true, it'll take a year for everyone who wants one to get one. More people will jump on board if the camera lives up to the hype.

Dec 2022 Nikon Z8 - slimmed down version of Z9 (same form factor) with key features in place but priced at USD 3K+.

Dec 2023. Nikon Z6/7 III - same form factor - AF finally fixed and some features from Z9 (if they are smart, they'll keep the LCD) and priced same as now.

Dec 2024 Nikon ZX - they'll be working on this now to ensure that they retain the advantage they have over the rest of the field. Then rinse and repeat.

That might be a bit too dense of a release schedule for Nikon considering that by some time next year, their DX offerings in the Z lineup would be getting very old and thin. I suspect that Nikon will increase their Z DX line up sooner rather than later and run with the FX horses for now.

Quite possibly - I make no claim to understanding how manufacturing timelines work. My point was more that if I were Nikon, from a marketing standpoint, I would be looking to keep the pot boiling and ensuring that I don't prematurely shut off any sales pipeline by announcing anything too soon. To keep the pot boiling I wouldn't delay too long either.

ARClark
ARClark Veteran Member • Posts: 4,672
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

mainoo wrote:

ARClark wrote:

You guys are not far apart. There are differences between leaking, teasing announcing and releasing. I think your release schedule is not unreasonable. But to Bill’s point, leaking or trading some specs not too far down the road would be helpful to those waiting on the inevitable smaller body form and giving them planning horizon.

but wouldn't that dilute their market share?. Right now, the Z9 has created a phenomenal buzz. If I had the money, I'd have ordered one straightaway. I'm still scheming and as long as there's no Z8 on the horizon, I'll keep trying to get the money. If I succeed before Dec 2022, I'll buy the Z9. If I know for certain that a Z8 is coming, I will definitely wait for it instead, as, I think, would many who are now planning to buy the Z9.

Yea, now is certainly way too soon. The Z9 needs to be out in people’s hands and the leading reviewers need time to do their thing and share their findings. If the Z9 lives up to the hype and sales are going strong, some hints of a smaller model could then be teased out. Bill will no doubt clarify what he means by “as soon as possible”, but I think what I described could be considered a qualified ASAP, under circumstances. I think some tangible signs of hope for all those waiting on a downsized model could help dissuade some from moving on to Canon or Sony. 🙂

 ARClark's gear list:ARClark's gear list
Nikon 500mm F5.6E PF Nikon D850 Nikon Z9 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm F2.8G IF-ED VR +14 more
primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 6,893
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...
4

Bill Ferris wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

shuncheung wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

If the pre-order rumors are anything close to accurate, photographers are more excited about the Z9 than any Nikon body since the D850. If anything, Nikon will leverage that enthusiasm by making an announcement - perhaps by the end of this calendar year - that the Z8 is in development and coming in 2022. Reassuring photographers that Z9 capability will be designed into downmarket products is the #1 thing Nikon can do to leverage the Z9 hype.

There is only a month and half left in 2021, and Nikon won't start shipping the Z9 until at least mid December. There is no better way to stop their own Z9's momentum to announce some "Z8" is coming with most of Z9's features but less expensive. Or announce another DSLR money loser when the world has moved to mirrorless. Either move would be a major shot in their own foot.

The only new DSLR Nikon may announce in the future are those anniversary model, special edition type, ALA Leica. But even that is getting unlikely. Nikon already have the retro Zfc. Perhaps that will make an FX version.

The thing is hype like this has a way of dieing fast. Why? Well because most nikon users won't buy this because of its price size and weight. The bigger market will be in a Z8 or whatever nikon calls it, but essentially a z7ii style body but with pro controls - without the missing buttons like the focus mode button, the 10 pin remote terminal at the front so it doesn't interfere with l bracket use, better AF, less or no blackout, so on and so forth (that z9 horizontal and vertical tilting screen is a must!). I think it is unlikely that masses of people who want a Z9 will suddenly not wish that style of body just because a Z8 is on it's way. The Z9 body is massive and weighty, if you want that type of camera you already know and go for it.

Exactly. Nikon only benefits from the Z9 by developing and releasing downmarket products that make the most desirable features & functionality of the Z9 available to enthusiasts.

The sooner they get on with that, the better. No D4 thru D6 shooter who's been waiting for the Z9 is going to pass on it because a non-gripped Z8 is announced. Not. One. If a D850 shooter who pre-ordered a Z9 cancels to get in line for a Z8, Nikon still gets a multi-thousand dollar sale. Plus they'll get the same sale from the thousands of D850 shooters who didn't pre-order a Z9 but can't wait to get in line for the Z8. If Nikon announces a Z900 is in development, the line of D500 and D7500 shooters getting in line for that will be long and enthusiastic. Professionals who pre-ordered the Z9 may join them in that line to get a second body having a similar user interface & functionality but lighter in weight and better at filling the frame when photographing distant subjects.

Any way we slice it, Nikon benefits from priming the customer enthusiasm pump and announcing downmarket products build around Z9 features & functionality as soon as possible. That only results in more people being excited about what's coming from Nikon.

I do not care what anyone says...the current Z bodies all have some sort of compromise or issue that means for my shooting they are side steps at best. This is a personal thing to each shooter. I know what I do and I know what works. Heck I have tried to justify grabbing one for months' but every time I look at it rationally I cannot swing it. (It is mainly to try the lenses more).

Nikon really must not realise how good their d850 is, or maybe they do. The simple fact is it is truly the best dslr ever made, period. I want to try the Z lenses I do. But I am not side stepping into some flawed or compromised body in order to do it. Nikon will get my money when they truly match or eclipse the d850. I suspect this is the viewpoint of many serious shooters. I've been caught up in this iterative upgrade thing before and it doesn't suit me anymore. I also suspect in this modern world many have got wise to this piecemealing stuff too. I am waiting for a d850 "we nailed it moment". A truly refined product without some problem that will get in the way of my shooting. I won't go into that here for now. I'm not here to watch nikon screw around adding an extra card slot and calling it a new camera. Try harder...a lot harder nikon. I am sure they will.

And Ps I will keep my dslrs. Some things are just better with an optical viewfinder. I like to see the world. To feel that connection. Some times that means no electronic viewpoints and pure optical goodness.

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 17,186
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...
2

mainoo wrote:

Craftsman70 wrote:

Dec 2021. Nikon Z9 - if the demand stories are true, it'll take a year for everyone who wants one to get one. More people will jump on board if the camera lives up to the hype.

Dec 2022 Nikon Z8 - slimmed down version of Z9 (same form factor) with key features in place but priced at USD 3K+.

Dec 2023. Nikon Z6/7 III - same form factor - AF finally fixed and some features from Z9 (if they are smart, they'll keep the LCD) and priced same as now.

Dec 2024 Nikon ZX - they'll be working on this now to ensure that they retain the advantage they have over the rest of the field. Then rinse and repeat.

That might be a bit too dense of a release schedule for Nikon considering that by some time next year, their DX offerings in the Z lineup would be getting very old and thin. I suspect that Nikon will increase their Z DX line up sooner rather than later and run with the FX horses for now.

Quite possibly - I make no claim to understanding how manufacturing timelines work. My point was more that if I were Nikon, from a marketing standpoint, I would be looking to keep the pot boiling and ensuring that I don't prematurely shut off any sales pipeline by announcing anything too soon. To keep the pot boiling I wouldn't delay too long either.

Sony is eating Nikon’s lunch.  You’re suggesting basically 2024 to come out with Z6/7 models that fix AF deficiencies against Sony and Canon.  A Z8 is not what is needed next.  What is needed next is a best in class bread and butter camera that the masses, what’s left of them, will buy.

-- hide signature --

Mike Dawson

 michaeladawson's gear list:michaeladawson's gear list
Nikon D7200 Nikon D5 Fujifilm X-T2 Nikon D850 Fujifilm X-E3 +39 more
primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 6,893
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

michaeladawson wrote:

mainoo wrote:

Craftsman70 wrote:

Dec 2021. Nikon Z9 - if the demand stories are true, it'll take a year for everyone who wants one to get one. More people will jump on board if the camera lives up to the hype.

Dec 2022 Nikon Z8 - slimmed down version of Z9 (same form factor) with key features in place but priced at USD 3K+.

Dec 2023. Nikon Z6/7 III - same form factor - AF finally fixed and some features from Z9 (if they are smart, they'll keep the LCD) and priced same as now.

Dec 2024 Nikon ZX - they'll be working on this now to ensure that they retain the advantage they have over the rest of the field. Then rinse and repeat.

That might be a bit too dense of a release schedule for Nikon considering that by some time next year, their DX offerings in the Z lineup would be getting very old and thin. I suspect that Nikon will increase their Z DX line up sooner rather than later and run with the FX horses for now.

Quite possibly - I make no claim to understanding how manufacturing timelines work. My point was more that if I were Nikon, from a marketing standpoint, I would be looking to keep the pot boiling and ensuring that I don't prematurely shut off any sales pipeline by announcing anything too soon. To keep the pot boiling I wouldn't delay too long either.

Sony is eating Nikon’s lunch. You’re suggesting basically 2024 to come out with Z6/7 models that fix AF deficiencies against Sony and Canon. A Z8 is not what is needed next. What is needed next is a best in class bread and butter camera that the masses, what’s left of them, will buy.

The z7ii or z6ii aren't terrible but they are not enough to convert all these d850 shooters and d810 shooters and d800 shooters. Still plenty using these bodies. I recon a firmware update will bring em on even more if going by the improvements had to the originals with just one expeed processor are any inclination. To put it finely, there is a difference say between in dslr world a d750 and a d850.

mainoo Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

michaeladawson wrote:

mainoo wrote:

Quite possibly - I make no claim to understanding how manufacturing timelines work. My point was more that if I were Nikon, from a marketing standpoint, I would be looking to keep the pot boiling and ensuring that I don't prematurely shut off any sales pipeline by announcing anything too soon. To keep the pot boiling I wouldn't delay too long either.

Sony is eating Nikon’s lunch. You’re suggesting basically 2024 to come out with Z6/7 models that fix AF deficiencies against Sony and Canon. A Z8 is not what is needed next. What is needed next is a best in class bread and butter camera that the masses, what’s left of them, will buy.

Again, quite possibly - in fact, I agree that the Z6/7 is more urgent. My main point is that whatever the strategy, Nikon would be wise to ride the sales pipeline carefully. Perhaps they should release. both the Z8 and the Z6/7 gen 3 at the same time as those market segments are, I think, sufficiently distinct. I'm sure there are smart minds at Nikon thinking about this. They've done  the important thing and disrupted (I think that is what they call it) - I hope they are able to exploit it.

Bill Ferris
Bill Ferris Veteran Member • Posts: 8,285
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...
1

primeshooter wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

shuncheung wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

If the pre-order rumors are anything close to accurate, photographers are more excited about the Z9 than any Nikon body since the D850. If anything, Nikon will leverage that enthusiasm by making an announcement - perhaps by the end of this calendar year - that the Z8 is in development and coming in 2022. Reassuring photographers that Z9 capability will be designed into downmarket products is the #1 thing Nikon can do to leverage the Z9 hype.

There is only a month and half left in 2021, and Nikon won't start shipping the Z9 until at least mid December. There is no better way to stop their own Z9's momentum to announce some "Z8" is coming with most of Z9's features but less expensive. Or announce another DSLR money loser when the world has moved to mirrorless. Either move would be a major shot in their own foot.

The only new DSLR Nikon may announce in the future are those anniversary model, special edition type, ALA Leica. But even that is getting unlikely. Nikon already have the retro Zfc. Perhaps that will make an FX version.

The thing is hype like this has a way of dieing fast. Why? Well because most nikon users won't buy this because of its price size and weight. The bigger market will be in a Z8 or whatever nikon calls it, but essentially a z7ii style body but with pro controls - without the missing buttons like the focus mode button, the 10 pin remote terminal at the front so it doesn't interfere with l bracket use, better AF, less or no blackout, so on and so forth (that z9 horizontal and vertical tilting screen is a must!). I think it is unlikely that masses of people who want a Z9 will suddenly not wish that style of body just because a Z8 is on it's way. The Z9 body is massive and weighty, if you want that type of camera you already know and go for it.

Exactly. Nikon only benefits from the Z9 by developing and releasing downmarket products that make the most desirable features & functionality of the Z9 available to enthusiasts.

The sooner they get on with that, the better. No D4 thru D6 shooter who's been waiting for the Z9 is going to pass on it because a non-gripped Z8 is announced. Not. One. If a D850 shooter who pre-ordered a Z9 cancels to get in line for a Z8, Nikon still gets a multi-thousand dollar sale. Plus they'll get the same sale from the thousands of D850 shooters who didn't pre-order a Z9 but can't wait to get in line for the Z8. If Nikon announces a Z900 is in development, the line of D500 and D7500 shooters getting in line for that will be long and enthusiastic. Professionals who pre-ordered the Z9 may join them in that line to get a second body having a similar user interface & functionality but lighter in weight and better at filling the frame when photographing distant subjects.

Any way we slice it, Nikon benefits from priming the customer enthusiasm pump and announcing downmarket products build around Z9 features & functionality as soon as possible. That only results in more people being excited about what's coming from Nikon.

I do not care what anyone says...the current Z bodies all have some sort of compromise or issue that means for my shooting they are side steps at best. This is a personal thing to each shooter. I know what I do and I know what works. Heck I have tried to justify grabbing one for months' but every time I look at it rationally I cannot swing it. (It is mainly to try the lenses more).

Nikon really must not realise how good their d850 is, or maybe they do. The simple fact is it is truly the best dslr ever made, period. I want to try the Z lenses I do. But I am not side stepping into some flawed or compromised body in order to do it. Nikon will get my money when they truly match or eclipse the d850. I suspect this is the viewpoint of many serious shooters. I've been caught up in this iterative upgrade thing before and it doesn't suit me anymore. I also suspect in this modern world many have got wise to this piecemealing stuff too. I am waiting for a d850 "we nailed it moment". A truly refined product without some problem that will get in the way of my shooting. I won't go into that here for now. I'm not here to watch nikon screw around adding an extra card slot and calling it a new camera. Try harder...a lot harder nikon. I am sure they will.

And Ps I will keep my dslrs. Some things are just better with an optical viewfinder. I like to see the world. To feel that connection. Some times that means no electronic viewpoints and pure optical goodness.

I respect your choice. We all free to shoot with whichever system appeals. I've really enjoyed shooting with Nikon DSLRs the last 17 years, including the last 3+ with a D500 as my primary body. I can totally understand where you're coming from and wouldn't try to talk you off the DSLR island.

That said, I've been shooting with a mirrorless Fuji X-T20 as my primary travel and lightweight hiking camera for about 4 1/2 years and have come to appreciate the advantages MILCs offer. For example, I really like an EVF that shows me a preview of how the photo I'm about to make will look.

As a wildlife and bird photographer, I've been spoiled by the performance of the D500. Its autofocus, burst rate, buffer, controls, and user interface are all excellent. I don't like the volume level of the mirror slap; not even in quiet or quiet continuous mode. I've had animals become uncomfortable by the sound of my D500's mirror slap. I've got 100s of photos of birds looking directly at me...made aware of my presence by that mirror slap. A Nikon mirrorless that offers truly silent shooting with autofocus as good or better than my D500 is of genuine interest to me.

While I've not had the opportunity to hold or use a Z9, the autofocus performance of that camera as shown in numerous videos looks truly impressive. If an APS-C version of that camera were introduced, I'd be sorely tempted. If an APS-C Z900 offered silent shooting in continuous AF mode along with 12-15 fps, I'd be all in on that bad boy.

I'm not trying to sell you or anybody else on the Z bodies; just sharing what about the Z series and potential future cameras interests me. I don't think I'm alone. A lot of D850, D750, D6xx, and D500 shooters have been hesitant to move to the Z-cosystem. Some like you are 100% satisfied with the DSLR experience and in no hurry to give that up. I respect that. Others like me have been waiting for something that's clearly, obviously an upgrade from our current kit and sense that, with the release of the Z9, we could be just a year or two from seeing that product introduced.

So again, I'm not being critical of your decision or trying to persuade you to change your mind. I'm just genuinely optimistic that Nikon will release a Z in the next year or two that genuinely interests me.

-- hide signature --

Bill Ferris Photography
Flagstaff, AZ
http://www.billferris.photoshelter.com

 Bill Ferris's gear list:Bill Ferris's gear list
Nikon D610 Nikon D500 Fujifilm X-T20 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +4 more
michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 17,186
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

I know what you’re saying, but there are far more D750 users than D850 users.

-- hide signature --

Mike Dawson

 michaeladawson's gear list:michaeladawson's gear list
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primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 6,893
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...
1

Bill Ferris wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

shuncheung wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

If the pre-order rumors are anything close to accurate, photographers are more excited about the Z9 than any Nikon body since the D850. If anything, Nikon will leverage that enthusiasm by making an announcement - perhaps by the end of this calendar year - that the Z8 is in development and coming in 2022. Reassuring photographers that Z9 capability will be designed into downmarket products is the #1 thing Nikon can do to leverage the Z9 hype.

There is only a month and half left in 2021, and Nikon won't start shipping the Z9 until at least mid December. There is no better way to stop their own Z9's momentum to announce some "Z8" is coming with most of Z9's features but less expensive. Or announce another DSLR money loser when the world has moved to mirrorless. Either move would be a major shot in their own foot.

The only new DSLR Nikon may announce in the future are those anniversary model, special edition type, ALA Leica. But even that is getting unlikely. Nikon already have the retro Zfc. Perhaps that will make an FX version.

The thing is hype like this has a way of dieing fast. Why? Well because most nikon users won't buy this because of its price size and weight. The bigger market will be in a Z8 or whatever nikon calls it, but essentially a z7ii style body but with pro controls - without the missing buttons like the focus mode button, the 10 pin remote terminal at the front so it doesn't interfere with l bracket use, better AF, less or no blackout, so on and so forth (that z9 horizontal and vertical tilting screen is a must!). I think it is unlikely that masses of people who want a Z9 will suddenly not wish that style of body just because a Z8 is on it's way. The Z9 body is massive and weighty, if you want that type of camera you already know and go for it.

Exactly. Nikon only benefits from the Z9 by developing and releasing downmarket products that make the most desirable features & functionality of the Z9 available to enthusiasts.

The sooner they get on with that, the better. No D4 thru D6 shooter who's been waiting for the Z9 is going to pass on it because a non-gripped Z8 is announced. Not. One. If a D850 shooter who pre-ordered a Z9 cancels to get in line for a Z8, Nikon still gets a multi-thousand dollar sale. Plus they'll get the same sale from the thousands of D850 shooters who didn't pre-order a Z9 but can't wait to get in line for the Z8. If Nikon announces a Z900 is in development, the line of D500 and D7500 shooters getting in line for that will be long and enthusiastic. Professionals who pre-ordered the Z9 may join them in that line to get a second body having a similar user interface & functionality but lighter in weight and better at filling the frame when photographing distant subjects.

Any way we slice it, Nikon benefits from priming the customer enthusiasm pump and announcing downmarket products build around Z9 features & functionality as soon as possible. That only results in more people being excited about what's coming from Nikon.

I do not care what anyone says...the current Z bodies all have some sort of compromise or issue that means for my shooting they are side steps at best. This is a personal thing to each shooter. I know what I do and I know what works. Heck I have tried to justify grabbing one for months' but every time I look at it rationally I cannot swing it. (It is mainly to try the lenses more).

Nikon really must not realise how good their d850 is, or maybe they do. The simple fact is it is truly the best dslr ever made, period. I want to try the Z lenses I do. But I am not side stepping into some flawed or compromised body in order to do it. Nikon will get my money when they truly match or eclipse the d850. I suspect this is the viewpoint of many serious shooters. I've been caught up in this iterative upgrade thing before and it doesn't suit me anymore. I also suspect in this modern world many have got wise to this piecemealing stuff too. I am waiting for a d850 "we nailed it moment". A truly refined product without some problem that will get in the way of my shooting. I won't go into that here for now. I'm not here to watch nikon screw around adding an extra card slot and calling it a new camera. Try harder...a lot harder nikon. I am sure they will.

And Ps I will keep my dslrs. Some things are just better with an optical viewfinder. I like to see the world. To feel that connection. Some times that means no electronic viewpoints and pure optical goodness.

I respect your choice. We all free to shoot with whichever system appeals. I've really enjoyed shooting with Nikon DSLRs the last 17 years, including the last 3+ with a D500 as my primary body. I can totally understand where you're coming from and wouldn't try to talk you off the DSLR island.

That said, I've been shooting with a mirrorless Fuji X-T20 as my primary travel and lightweight hiking camera for about 4 1/2 years and have come to appreciate the advantages MILCs offer. For example, I really like an EVF that shows me a preview of how the photo I'm about to make will look.

As a wildlife and bird photographer, I've been spoiled by the performance of the D500. Its autofocus, burst rate, buffer, controls, and user interface are all excellent. I don't like the volume level of the mirror slap; not even in quiet or quiet continuous mode. I've had animals become uncomfortable by the sound of my D500's mirror slap. I've got 100s of photos of birds looking directly at me...made aware of my presence by that mirror slap. A Nikon mirrorless that offers truly silent shooting with autofocus as good or better than my D500 is of genuine interest to me.

While I've not had the opportunity to hold or use a Z9, the autofocus performance of that camera as shown in numerous videos looks truly impressive. If an APS-C version of that camera were introduced, I'd be sorely tempted. If an APS-C Z900 offered silent shooting in continuous AF mode along with 12-15 fps, I'd be all in on that bad boy.

I'm not trying to sell you or anybody else on the Z bodies; just sharing what about the Z series and potential future cameras interests me. I don't think I'm alone. A lot of D850, D750, D6xx, and D500 shooters have been hesitant to move to the Z-cosystem. Some like you are 100% satisfied with the DSLR experience and in no hurry to give that up. I respect that. Others like me have been waiting for something that's clearly, obviously an upgrade from our current kit and sense that, with the release of the Z9, we could be just a year or two from seeing that product introduced.

So again, I'm not being critical of your decision or trying to persuade you to change your mind. I'm just genuinely optimistic that Nikon will release a Z in the next year or two that genuinely interests me.

Agree with your sentiments...as I said there are plusses but for me still too many minuses or side steps currently. I am sure the next body will change that though. So for now I wait.

T O Shooter Forum Pro • Posts: 11,846
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...
3

michaeladawson wrote:

mainoo wrote:

Craftsman70 wrote:

Dec 2021. Nikon Z9 - if the demand stories are true, it'll take a year for everyone who wants one to get one. More people will jump on board if the camera lives up to the hype.

Dec 2022 Nikon Z8 - slimmed down version of Z9 (same form factor) with key features in place but priced at USD 3K+.

Dec 2023. Nikon Z6/7 III - same form factor - AF finally fixed and some features from Z9 (if they are smart, they'll keep the LCD) and priced same as now.

Dec 2024 Nikon ZX - they'll be working on this now to ensure that they retain the advantage they have over the rest of the field. Then rinse and repeat.

That might be a bit too dense of a release schedule for Nikon considering that by some time next year, their DX offerings in the Z lineup would be getting very old and thin. I suspect that Nikon will increase their Z DX line up sooner rather than later and run with the FX horses for now.

Quite possibly - I make no claim to understanding how manufacturing timelines work. My point was more that if I were Nikon, from a marketing standpoint, I would be looking to keep the pot boiling and ensuring that I don't prematurely shut off any sales pipeline by announcing anything too soon. To keep the pot boiling I wouldn't delay too long either.

Sony is eating Nikon’s lunch. You’re suggesting basically 2024 to come out with Z6/7 models that fix AF deficiencies against Sony and Canon. A Z8 is not what is needed next. What is needed next is a best in class bread and butter camera that the masses, what’s left of them, will buy.

I looked at Mainoo's timeline for new Zee bodies and was going to post along your lines, but said "why bother?".

I think fellows misunderstand how bad Nikon needs a body for the masses, and the Z9 is far from that.  There's a lot of fellows figuratively pulling their wallets out of their pockets and pre-ordering a Z9, but unless there's been a big influx of cash, and going off the DSLR forum, the masses buy D600, D750 and D500 cameras, all those pre=orders will not be actual purchases.  The size of it is likely a deal breaker for most.

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Craftsman70 Contributing Member • Posts: 699
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

mainoo wrote:

Craftsman70 wrote:

Dec 2021. Nikon Z9 - if the demand stories are true, it'll take a year for everyone who wants one to get one. More people will jump on board if the camera lives up to the hype.

Dec 2022 Nikon Z8 - slimmed down version of Z9 (same form factor) with key features in place but priced at USD 3K+.

Dec 2023. Nikon Z6/7 III - same form factor - AF finally fixed and some features from Z9 (if they are smart, they'll keep the LCD) and priced same as now.

Dec 2024 Nikon ZX - they'll be working on this now to ensure that they retain the advantage they have over the rest of the field. Then rinse and repeat.

That might be a bit too dense of a release schedule for Nikon considering that by some time next year, their DX offerings in the Z lineup would be getting very old and thin. I suspect that Nikon will increase their Z DX line up sooner rather than later and run with the FX horses for now.

Quite possibly - I make no claim to understanding how manufacturing timelines work. My point was more that if I were Nikon, from a marketing standpoint, I would be looking to keep the pot boiling and ensuring that I don't prematurely shut off any sales pipeline by announcing anything too soon. To keep the pot boiling I wouldn't delay too long either.

I'm with you on that point - milk the cow when the cow is still giving milk!  However, they do have to ensure that their other product lines are looked after or else they will see people decide to make make a choice between waiting and buying something (or sometimes someone) else.  Once that happens, there is a good chance that they might not buy a Nikon product the next time around.

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Bill Ferris
Bill Ferris Veteran Member • Posts: 8,285
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...
2

mainoo wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

Any way we slice it, Nikon benefits from priming the customer enthusiasm pump and announcing downmarket products build around Z9 features & functionality as soon as possible. That only results in more people being excited about what's coming from Nikon.

No, not as soon as possible. Nikon's nest bet is to thoroughly soak up the Z9 market before releasing anything further. I predict the following timeline

Dec 2021. Nikon Z9 - if the demand stories are true, it'll take a year for everyone who wants one to get one. More people will jump on board if the camera lives up to the hype.

Dec 2022 Nikon Z8 - slimmed down version of Z9 (same form factor) with key features in place but priced at USD 3K+.

Dec 2023. Nikon Z6/7 III - same form factor - AF finally fixed and some features from Z9 (if they are smart, they'll keep the LCD) and priced same as now.

Dec 2024 Nikon ZX - they'll be working on this now to ensure that they retain the advantage they have over the rest of the field. Then rinse and repeat.

Flagship market size is much smaller than the market size for downmarket products.

  • D3: minimum 96,500 bodies sold (http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/camera.html )
  • D700: min. 540,000 sold
  • D300: min. 591,000 sold
  • D4: min. 76,000 sold
  • D810: min. 200,000 sold
  • D750: min. 570,000 sold
  • D5: min. 39,000 sold
  • D850: min. 245,000 sold
  • D500: min. 176,000 sold

Flagships are also a niche product. Their price, physical form, build quality, and functionality are designed to appeal to professionals and those who want the best of the best. Downmarket products don't compete so much as augment. In other words, a professional may own multiple copies of the same model and may augment that collection with downmarket bodies that are compatible with other shooting the professional does.

In short, I just don't buy that downmarket products cannibalize sales of flagships. If anything, a lower-priced downmarket product that shares enough of the functionality and user interface of the flagship may be added to a professional's kit. In any event, if a professional or enthusiast doesn't have room in the budget for a 6 kilobuck flagship, they're going to be looking downmarket anyway. That's a sale the flagship would never have had.

The timing of Nikon's announcements about downmarket products can certainly be debated. And given Nikon's history, a rational assessment may be that we won't see a Z8 announced until this time next year. Still, I'm convinced the best thing Nikon could do to leverage the positive response to the introduction of the Z9 is to let current Nikon shooters know as soon as possible that downmarket products are in the works. Even a development announcement of a Z8 or Z900 by the end of 2021 or early 2022 would be enough to stop the hemorrhaging of customers Nikon has experienced in the last few years.

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Fullframer Senior Member • Posts: 1,036
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

primeshooter wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

shuncheung wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

If the pre-order rumors are anything close to accurate, photographers are more excited about the Z9 than any Nikon body since the D850. If anything, Nikon will leverage that enthusiasm by making an announcement - perhaps by the end of this calendar year - that the Z8 is in development and coming in 2022. Reassuring photographers that Z9 capability will be designed into downmarket products is the #1 thing Nikon can do to leverage the Z9 hype.

There is only a month and half left in 2021, and Nikon won't start shipping the Z9 until at least mid December. There is no better way to stop their own Z9's momentum to announce some "Z8" is coming with most of Z9's features but less expensive. Or announce another DSLR money loser when the world has moved to mirrorless. Either move would be a major shot in their own foot.

The only new DSLR Nikon may announce in the future are those anniversary model, special edition type, ALA Leica. But even that is getting unlikely. Nikon already have the retro Zfc. Perhaps that will make an FX version.

The thing is hype like this has a way of dieing fast. Why? Well because most nikon users won't buy this because of its price size and weight. The bigger market will be in a Z8 or whatever nikon calls it, but essentially a z7ii style body but with pro controls - without the missing buttons like the focus mode button, the 10 pin remote terminal at the front so it doesn't interfere with l bracket use, better AF, less or no blackout, so on and so forth (that z9 horizontal and vertical tilting screen is a must!). I think it is unlikely that masses of people who want a Z9 will suddenly not wish that style of body just because a Z8 is on it's way. The Z9 body is massive and weighty, if you want that type of camera you already know and go for it.

Exactly. Nikon only benefits from the Z9 by developing and releasing downmarket products that make the most desirable features & functionality of the Z9 available to enthusiasts.

The sooner they get on with that, the better. No D4 thru D6 shooter who's been waiting for the Z9 is going to pass on it because a non-gripped Z8 is announced. Not. One. If a D850 shooter who pre-ordered a Z9 cancels to get in line for a Z8, Nikon still gets a multi-thousand dollar sale. Plus they'll get the same sale from the thousands of D850 shooters who didn't pre-order a Z9 but can't wait to get in line for the Z8. If Nikon announces a Z900 is in development, the line of D500 and D7500 shooters getting in line for that will be long and enthusiastic. Professionals who pre-ordered the Z9 may join them in that line to get a second body having a similar user interface & functionality but lighter in weight and better at filling the frame when photographing distant subjects.

Any way we slice it, Nikon benefits from priming the customer enthusiasm pump and announcing downmarket products build around Z9 features & functionality as soon as possible. That only results in more people being excited about what's coming from Nikon.

I do not care what anyone says...the current Z bodies all have some sort of compromise or issue that means for my shooting they are side steps at best. This is a personal thing to each shooter. I know what I do and I know what works. Heck I have tried to justify grabbing one for months' but every time I look at it rationally I cannot swing it. (It is mainly to try the lenses more).

The current issue for me is the EVF lag on fast moving objects where you have to move camera around quick.  too annoying.    They eat batteries. Important when you are on a long time sporting events or all day photo shoots.  The amount of time one battery on my D8XX series camera lasts,  I would have to go through 3 or 4 on a Z7 to keep pace.   DSLR is far more energy efficient, LOL. Sad but true.

Nikon really must not realise how good their d850 is, or maybe they do. The simple fact is it is truly the best dslr ever made, period. I want to try the Z lenses I do. But I am not side stepping into some flawed or compromised body in order to do it. Nikon will get my money when they truly match or eclipse the d850. I suspect this is the viewpoint of many serious shooters.

Yep it it is, viewpoint of serious and paid shooters,  in the real world, not here on the Internet forums.  Many of my peers in the business even shoot on even older cameras.  I got one guy that still uses a 2009 vintage D300S, with AFD screw driver vintage pro glass,  lol.  They get great results. Their clients are happy.   Not everyone is using that old, some are,  using the latest greatest in the real world with clients.  You would be surprised.  I still see plenty of pro's using old D4 and D800 from 2012 on their paid shoots.

I've been caught up in this iterative upgrade thing before and it doesn't suit me anymore. I also suspect in this modern world many have got wise to this piecemealing stuff too. I am waiting for a d850 "we nailed it moment". A truly refined product without some problem that will get in the way of my shooting. I won't go into that here for now. I'm not here to watch nikon screw around adding an extra card slot and calling it a new camera. Try harder...a lot harder nikon. I am sure they will.

And Ps I will keep my dslrs. Some things are just better with an optical viewfinder. I like to see the world. To feel that connection. Some times that means no electronic viewpoints and pure optical goodness.

primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 6,893
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

Fullframer wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

shuncheung wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

If the pre-order rumors are anything close to accurate, photographers are more excited about the Z9 than any Nikon body since the D850. If anything, Nikon will leverage that enthusiasm by making an announcement - perhaps by the end of this calendar year - that the Z8 is in development and coming in 2022. Reassuring photographers that Z9 capability will be designed into downmarket products is the #1 thing Nikon can do to leverage the Z9 hype.

There is only a month and half left in 2021, and Nikon won't start shipping the Z9 until at least mid December. There is no better way to stop their own Z9's momentum to announce some "Z8" is coming with most of Z9's features but less expensive. Or announce another DSLR money loser when the world has moved to mirrorless. Either move would be a major shot in their own foot.

The only new DSLR Nikon may announce in the future are those anniversary model, special edition type, ALA Leica. But even that is getting unlikely. Nikon already have the retro Zfc. Perhaps that will make an FX version.

The thing is hype like this has a way of dieing fast. Why? Well because most nikon users won't buy this because of its price size and weight. The bigger market will be in a Z8 or whatever nikon calls it, but essentially a z7ii style body but with pro controls - without the missing buttons like the focus mode button, the 10 pin remote terminal at the front so it doesn't interfere with l bracket use, better AF, less or no blackout, so on and so forth (that z9 horizontal and vertical tilting screen is a must!). I think it is unlikely that masses of people who want a Z9 will suddenly not wish that style of body just because a Z8 is on it's way. The Z9 body is massive and weighty, if you want that type of camera you already know and go for it.

Exactly. Nikon only benefits from the Z9 by developing and releasing downmarket products that make the most desirable features & functionality of the Z9 available to enthusiasts.

The sooner they get on with that, the better. No D4 thru D6 shooter who's been waiting for the Z9 is going to pass on it because a non-gripped Z8 is announced. Not. One. If a D850 shooter who pre-ordered a Z9 cancels to get in line for a Z8, Nikon still gets a multi-thousand dollar sale. Plus they'll get the same sale from the thousands of D850 shooters who didn't pre-order a Z9 but can't wait to get in line for the Z8. If Nikon announces a Z900 is in development, the line of D500 and D7500 shooters getting in line for that will be long and enthusiastic. Professionals who pre-ordered the Z9 may join them in that line to get a second body having a similar user interface & functionality but lighter in weight and better at filling the frame when photographing distant subjects.

Any way we slice it, Nikon benefits from priming the customer enthusiasm pump and announcing downmarket products build around Z9 features & functionality as soon as possible. That only results in more people being excited about what's coming from Nikon.

I do not care what anyone says...the current Z bodies all have some sort of compromise or issue that means for my shooting they are side steps at best. This is a personal thing to each shooter. I know what I do and I know what works. Heck I have tried to justify grabbing one for months' but every time I look at it rationally I cannot swing it. (It is mainly to try the lenses more).

The current issue for me is the EVF lag on fast moving objects where you have to move camera around quick. too annoying. They eat batteries. Important when you are on a long time sporting events or all day photo shoots. The amount of time one battery on my D8XX series camera lasts, I would have to go through 3 or 4 on a Z7 to keep pace. DSLR is far more energy efficient, LOL. Sad but true.

Probably be that way for a long long time. ML is powering an EVF and constant af / metering calculations. I'd honestly have liked to have seen a hybrid.

Nikon really must not realise how good their d850 is, or maybe they do. The simple fact is it is truly the best dslr ever made, period. I want to try the Z lenses I do. But I am not side stepping into some flawed or compromised body in order to do it. Nikon will get my money when they truly match or eclipse the d850. I suspect this is the viewpoint of many serious shooters.

Yep it it is, viewpoint of serious and paid shooters, in the real world, not here on the Internet forums. Many of my peers in the business even shoot on even older cameras. I got one guy that still uses a 2009 vintage D300S, with AFD screw driver vintage pro glass, lol. They get great results. Their clients are happy. Not everyone is using that old, some are, using the latest greatest in the real world with clients. You would be surprised. I still see plenty of pro's using old D4 and D800 from 2012 on their paid shoots.

D4 and d800 still practically state of the art in terms of output anyway. Camera sensor tech moves at a snails pace. It's vision and talent that separate the shooters out. I used to always go for the latest tech but now I wait until tech matures more, then I jump if it fits my needs. My needs are both...OVF and ML but I can't jump yet. The 24-70 is tempting because it is a lens I need in time. I refuse to buy the f mount version as it has been very much eclipsed by the z lens. But the bodies don't work for me yet.

I've been caught up in this iterative upgrade thing before and it doesn't suit me anymore. I also suspect in this modern world many have got wise to this piecemealing stuff too. I am waiting for a d850 "we nailed it moment". A truly refined product without some problem that will get in the way of my shooting. I won't go into that here for now. I'm not here to watch nikon screw around adding an extra card slot and calling it a new camera. Try harder...a lot harder nikon. I am sure they will.

And Ps I will keep my dslrs. Some things are just better with an optical viewfinder. I like to see the world. To feel that connection. Some times that means no electronic viewpoints and pure optical goodness.

fpapp
fpapp Senior Member • Posts: 1,410
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...
2

primeshooter wrote:

...I'd honestly have liked to have seen a hybrid.

Me too!

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Fullframer Senior Member • Posts: 1,036
Re: Why Would Nikon Want...

primeshooter wrote:

Fullframer wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

shuncheung wrote:

Bill Ferris wrote:

If the pre-order rumors are anything close to accurate, photographers are more excited about the Z9 than any Nikon body since the D850. If anything, Nikon will leverage that enthusiasm by making an announcement - perhaps by the end of this calendar year - that the Z8 is in development and coming in 2022. Reassuring photographers that Z9 capability will be designed into downmarket products is the #1 thing Nikon can do to leverage the Z9 hype.

There is only a month and half left in 2021, and Nikon won't start shipping the Z9 until at least mid December. There is no better way to stop their own Z9's momentum to announce some "Z8" is coming with most of Z9's features but less expensive. Or announce another DSLR money loser when the world has moved to mirrorless. Either move would be a major shot in their own foot.

The only new DSLR Nikon may announce in the future are those anniversary model, special edition type, ALA Leica. But even that is getting unlikely. Nikon already have the retro Zfc. Perhaps that will make an FX version.

The thing is hype like this has a way of dieing fast. Why? Well because most nikon users won't buy this because of its price size and weight. The bigger market will be in a Z8 or whatever nikon calls it, but essentially a z7ii style body but with pro controls - without the missing buttons like the focus mode button, the 10 pin remote terminal at the front so it doesn't interfere with l bracket use, better AF, less or no blackout, so on and so forth (that z9 horizontal and vertical tilting screen is a must!). I think it is unlikely that masses of people who want a Z9 will suddenly not wish that style of body just because a Z8 is on it's way. The Z9 body is massive and weighty, if you want that type of camera you already know and go for it.

Exactly. Nikon only benefits from the Z9 by developing and releasing downmarket products that make the most desirable features & functionality of the Z9 available to enthusiasts.

The sooner they get on with that, the better. No D4 thru D6 shooter who's been waiting for the Z9 is going to pass on it because a non-gripped Z8 is announced. Not. One. If a D850 shooter who pre-ordered a Z9 cancels to get in line for a Z8, Nikon still gets a multi-thousand dollar sale. Plus they'll get the same sale from the thousands of D850 shooters who didn't pre-order a Z9 but can't wait to get in line for the Z8. If Nikon announces a Z900 is in development, the line of D500 and D7500 shooters getting in line for that will be long and enthusiastic. Professionals who pre-ordered the Z9 may join them in that line to get a second body having a similar user interface & functionality but lighter in weight and better at filling the frame when photographing distant subjects.

Any way we slice it, Nikon benefits from priming the customer enthusiasm pump and announcing downmarket products build around Z9 features & functionality as soon as possible. That only results in more people being excited about what's coming from Nikon.

I do not care what anyone says...the current Z bodies all have some sort of compromise or issue that means for my shooting they are side steps at best. This is a personal thing to each shooter. I know what I do and I know what works. Heck I have tried to justify grabbing one for months' but every time I look at it rationally I cannot swing it. (It is mainly to try the lenses more).

The current issue for me is the EVF lag on fast moving objects where you have to move camera around quick. too annoying. They eat batteries. Important when you are on a long time sporting events or all day photo shoots. The amount of time one battery on my D8XX series camera lasts, I would have to go through 3 or 4 on a Z7 to keep pace. DSLR is far more energy efficient, LOL. Sad but true.

Probably be that way for a long long time. ML is powering an EVF and constant af / metering calculations. I'd honestly have liked to have seen a hybrid.

Agreed.  Hybrid system would be nice.

Nikon really must not realise how good their d850 is, or maybe they do. The simple fact is it is truly the best dslr ever made, period. I want to try the Z lenses I do. But I am not side stepping into some flawed or compromised body in order to do it. Nikon will get my money when they truly match or eclipse the d850. I suspect this is the viewpoint of many serious shooters.

Yep it it is, viewpoint of serious and paid shooters, in the real world, not here on the Internet forums. Many of my peers in the business even shoot on even older cameras. I got one guy that still uses a 2009 vintage D300S, with AFD screw driver vintage pro glass, lol. They get great results. Their clients are happy. Not everyone is using that old, some are, using the latest greatest in the real world with clients. You would be surprised. I still see plenty of pro's using old D4 and D800 from 2012 on their paid shoots.

D4 and d800 still practically state of the art in terms of output anyway. Camera sensor tech moves at a snails pace. It's vision and talent that separate the shooters out. I used to always go for the latest tech but now I wait until tech matures more, then I jump if it fits my needs.

True.  When I go for the latest tech, I keep it for 1 or 2 generations.  Usually so I get something for it $$ wise.  If you hold on to it too long. You might as well keep it.

My needs are both...OVF and ML but I can't jump yet. The 24-70 is tempting because it is a lens I need in time. I refuse to buy the f mount version as it has been very much eclipsed by the z lens. But the bodies don't work for me yet.

I will disagree there on the lens, The Z  24-70 F2.8 version may be better in lab tests, but  I have no problems with last F mount 24-70 F2.8 VR which came out new in 2015.   Prints look great  at big sizes from the demanding D850 high res sensor,  clients are happy.   F mount is far cheaper too.   Black Friday deal, 25% off,  $1599, last year. it's that price again.

I've been caught up in this iterative upgrade thing before and it doesn't suit me anymore. I also suspect in this modern world many have got wise to this piecemealing stuff too. I am waiting for a d850 "we nailed it moment". A truly refined product without some problem that will get in the way of my shooting. I won't go into that here for now. I'm not here to watch nikon screw around adding an extra card slot and calling it a new camera. Try harder...a lot harder nikon. I am sure they will.

And Ps I will keep my dslrs. Some things are just better with an optical viewfinder. I like to see the world. To feel that connection. Some times that means no electronic viewpoints and pure optical goodness.

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