Breathing room for the X-H2?

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
palane Regular Member • Posts: 252
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?

batDude,Fuji has stated the XH-2 will come in 2022,they will announce it when they are ready.With the shortages the world is going through right now PATIENCE is a virtue!

The A7iv looks reasonably good to me as well and I'll wait till I know what Fuji is doing till I buy my next body/system.

I think the stills side of things will be a little faster with improved buffering of course higher resolution,Video will see a vast jump in capability.

Seeing the last Fuji Summit was September,I dont expect any real news until Feb/March next year.What I do expect is an intergratedGrip Flagship with the best WR,possibly CFexpress/SD to cope with the 8K data.Heatsink/Fan for cooling.Possibly twin processors  like in the Olympus X model.

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 17,054
Re: My fear

John Gellings wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

timwit wrote:

It sounds doubtful that the X-H2 will be released at $2199 with a stacked sensor. The initial price at $2499 sounds more realistic since the cost to fabricate one is expensive.

Tim C.

That is my fear - stacked sensors have not been put into the lower price bodies before by Sony, Canon or Nikon. OK - Sony has it in a 1" sensor camera body but its not a cheap 1" body.

If its going to be 2,499 - I don't think many people will pay for the benefits of a stacked sensor design.

And I don't see Fujifilm overproducing a high price body again like they did for the X-H1 - so I don't foresee a fire sale discount on them. They will probability produce them like the X-Pro3 - in low volumes.

If I wanted a Fujifilm body I'd be on it in a minute at that price. Those that don't want to spend $2500 on a stacked sensor body don't really understand the benefits. Or they're just too poor to be able to afford it.

Really? Maybe the benefits don’t matter to those particular users? And honestly, you can work at McDonalds and figure out how to spend $2500 on something. $2500 is too much for APSC in this market.

Things cost what they cost.  You aren’t getting a stacked sensor in an X-H2 without spending cash.  If Fujifilm thinks they are limited to $2000 then we aren’t getting a stacked sensor.

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Ed_arizona Senior Member • Posts: 1,984
Re: Stacked Sensor is the key to improved AF
4

DHAPhotography wrote:

Jerry-astro wrote:

DHAPhotography wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

Batdude wrote:

.... I don't need high FPS and a stacked sensor, so this A7IV might be just the right camera for me and although I have been saying for the longest time that I don't need more resolution, 33MP ain't bad. I shot with the 36MP Pentax K1 for a year and I had no problem. I really hate flippy screens but besides that this A7IV might be the camera for me.

Maybe a used Panasonic S1, but I like what I'm seeing from Sony so far.

I haven't seen anything about a XH2 and again, 40MP with those massive Fuji RAW file sizes is not attractive to me at all. Now, what would interest me is IF, the XH2 comes in a one single Pro body like a mini Canon R3. THAT would interest me and I would pay $2500, but to be very honest, besides that I'm not sure the XH2 will be the camera for me, and is almost November and it hasn't shown up.

I love stacked sensors because of the silent shooting but I have come to realize that it also the path to improved AF.

EVIL AF systems need samples to calculate the lens movements. The more samples it has the better the AF. Stacked sensors gives the processors more samples to work with.

With the faster readouts - the EVF frequency can also be boosted - which will improve out viewfinder experience and reduce lag and blackout times.

Getting sensors with faster readout times and matching them with faster processors is the key to improving our shooting experience with EVIL cameras.

I'm old school. I don't need better AF systems. In fact, I find myself going back more and more to MF and playing. Such is life. Save your coins. There must be a homeless shelter somewhere. Here's one with MF yesterday.

Look... please do us all a favor and make your point, but leave out trollish remarks like your homeless shelter remark. Unnecessary and unfunny.

Heh, go easy on the testosterone remarks, svp. My point was for us all to save our money on stacking and better AF systems and spend our money more wisely, such as helping others in need. I fail to see the troll here. Just saying.

And your comments have NOTHING to do with photography, just your Huge Ego showing. go shoot a bird

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michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 17,054
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?

Batdude wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Your point is very interesting.

When I purchased my new XH1 at a whooping $1699 plus tax I really really regret it a year later when the price plummeted. I too will never make that same mistake again. The XH1 for what you got was really over priced, IMHO.

But as I said, if Fuji shows up with a XH2 like a mini D4/R3 type body it will be really hard for me to resist

It was not overpriced. I think it was very reasonably priced. The problem was not that it was overpriced but that they came out with the X-T3 shortly thereafter and killed sales.

Yes I know which is the same reason, it "became" over priced because people didn't really feel it had anything special, except IBIS and a deeper grip. That's it. The AF wasn't that great either and it never got a boost in AF performance and the XT3 does have better AF. And by the way, the same exact thing is going to happen if Fuji releases the XT5 soon after that, so, something HAS to make the XH2 very different, and I say and hope Fuji makes it in a body with built-in grip. The new flag ship. Otherwise why would anyone want to buy it again.

Now, the D4/R3 built-in grip style is just my (personal) idea and wish as to what the XH2 should be, but whatever it is, it better have something really different that will make it's existence worth it compared to the XT5 when that comes out otherwise Fuji themselves will shoot themselves on the foot and kill the XH line forever.

Having said all that, buying another fuji camera that will look exactly like the XH1 will turn me off and I seriously doubt I will buy such camera. A stacked sensor alone doesn't really excite me that much to be frank because I don't think I really need it.

I have no opinion on what you need.  That’s for you to work out.  I’m only suggesting that the X-H2, if it has a stacked sensor it is not going to be cheap.  An X-H2 at release is not going to be only $300 more than the X-T4 was as release

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timwit Contributing Member • Posts: 566
Re: My fear

Canadianguy wrote:

timwit wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

Remember the Sony A7 III - with a release price of 1999 USD - it just crushed Fujifilm's dream of moving APS-C pricing up.

Fast forward to 2021 - A7 IV is out now and it has a release price of $2499 USD.

So some breathing room for an over $2K APS-C body from Fujifilm.

My "The Price is Right" guess for X-H2 pricing - $2199 with a stacked sensor.

Without a stacked sensor - it should be much cheaper.

It sounds doubtful that the X-H2 will be released at $2199 with a stacked sensor. The initial price at $2499 sounds more realistic since the cost to fabricate one is expensive.

Tim C.

That is my fear - stacked sensors have not been put into the lower price bodies before by Sony, Canon or Nikon. OK - Sony has it in a 1" sensor camera body but its not a cheap 1" body.

If its going to be 2,499 - I don't think many people will pay for the benefits of a stacked sensor design.

And I don't see Fujifilm overproducing a high price body again like they did for the X-H1 - so I don't foresee a fire sale discount on them. They will probability produce them like the X-Pro3 - in low volumes.

Below are released/announced full-frame cameras with a stacked sensor:

Canon R3 - $5999

Sony A1 - $6500

The rumored Nikon Z9 will probably be in the same price range when it is released.

There is a chance that Fujifilm can play their cards right by utilizing their assets and opportunities with the stacked sensor for the X-H2.  An introductory price near $3000 might even be considered a bargain.

Tim C.

timwit Contributing Member • Posts: 566
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?
1

Lettermanian wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

Remember the Sony A7 III - with a release price of 1999 USD - it just crushed Fujifilm's dream of moving APS-C pricing up.

Fast forward to 2021 - A7 IV is out now and it has a release price of $2499 USD.

So some breathing room for an over $2K APS-C body from Fujifilm.

My "The Price is Right" guess for X-H2 pricing - $2199 with a stacked sensor.

Without a stacked sensor - it should be much cheaper.

Hard to say what Fuji will do. Since the release of the X-H1 there have been countless passionate threads on why Fuji made it, how they marketed it, how they priced it, and whether it would have a successor. I have always been skeptical about an X-H2, since the X-H1 was a real miss on Fuji's part, from a marketing perspective. Not bashing it at all though, since I'm on my second one and it's my favourite camera ever.

While it seems like an X-H2 is indeed on the way, I am still saying "I'll believe it when I see it". The X-H1 didn't gain popularity until it was deeply discounted, and given the FF offerings now available, I can't imagine much in the way of people changing systems, unless m43 users finally see the light At best I think it will be seen as an upgrade to existing Fuji users. Ithas to be differentiated enough from the X-Tx series to be able to sell within the Fuji user base, but is it differentiated enough to attract people from other systems? Time will tell...

Spot on.

Tim C.

a_c_skinner Forum Pro • Posts: 11,950
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?

"Sony has improved everything in it."

Have they improved what comes out of it?  I've admitted elsewhere I don't like taking photos, I just want the photos.

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kamerakiri Regular Member • Posts: 376
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?
1

Canadianguy wrote:

Remember the Sony A7 III - with a release price of 1999 USD - it just crushed Fujifilm's dream of moving APS-C pricing up.

Fast forward to 2021 - A7 IV is out now and it has a release price of $2499 USD.

So some breathing room for an over $2K APS-C body from Fujifilm.

My "The Price is Right" guess for X-H2 pricing - $2199 with a stacked sensor.

Without a stacked sensor - it should be much cheaper.

I was similarly sceptical regarding pricing but I took some time(and help of several camera comparison websites) to figure out the most usable package of camera/lens combination across different manufacturers. Using this, let me put things in perspective:

1) The new 40 Mp sensor has nearly the same pixel density as the GFX 100s. This makes this newer sensor reach parity with GFX in "tonality", "depth" and whatever such terms that Fujifilm managers or fans were throwing around.

2) This sensor matches ~60 Mp Full Frame sensor in pixel density. We already know how lenses that perform fine on 24 Mp Sony FF sensor start falling apart at corners, and even in mid-frame on the 60 Mp sensor.

3) All this puts immense pressure on the newer line of lenses(18/23/33 trio, possibly an update to 56, and the newer video zoom). I think Fujifilm designers are using some of their expertise from making GFX lenses into this new line of lenses. GFX like DOF is near impossible on APS-C at wider apertures, but the sharpness and micro-detail will be at the same level - imagine that!

4) Additionally, Fuji will give 8K on an APS-C camera.

5) A micro four thirds crop on this 40 Mp sensor gives 30 Mp(3/4 factor) which is significantly higher than even the newer stacked 20Mp sensor that will come on GH6 and possibly Olympus "wow" flagship(I'm not certain. There are rumours of global shutter as well). So imagine, a stacked 30 Mp mft crop mode that resolves more than stacked 20 Mp GH6. Remember GH6 will likely be above $2000, possibly even $2400.

6) A 2x digital zoom gives 10 Mp which is still quite huge(more than 4K 16:9). The level of resolution in centre must be quite good.

7) 40 Mp stacked BSI sensor sets quite high standard for APS-C. We can expect a very sturdy and well built body in X-H2, possible as bulky as a GH6, because I think Fuji is looking to sell the larger lens( new 150-600) and its cine zooms(the two MK zooms). A well built body can handle bulkier lenses better.

8) Landscape photographers will enjoy the leap in image quality.

9) I also expect a rewrite of video assist features within the firmware.

Considering all this, and the A7IV price, I won't be surprised if Fuji prices this at the same price as GH6, which will be quite insane value for money. I expect the price to be above $2000.

It will drop under $2000 after some time(probably year and a half). And it will be quite a bestseller for many years to come. Even X-T4 is so good that I think Fuji will continue to make it until 2025.

lewiedude2
lewiedude2 Senior Member • Posts: 2,418
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?

Samuraidog wrote:

Watching reviews today on Youtube about the Sony A7 IV, it had me thinking that Fujifilm may have made a mistake postponing the release of the X-H2 this year in favor of making a big splash on their 10th anniversary. Of course, the stacked sensor in the X-H2 will probably make a big difference, but I'd think that Fujifilm will lose some potential sales to the A7 IV.

Also, Fujifilm will have to make great strides in AF. If the X-H2 can't compete with the A7 IV in human eye AF, it will also be a huge disappointment. Add to that, the significant improvements in the A7 IV's animal eye AF.

Call me crazy, but I'm hoping for an X-H2 at less than $2500 that is nearly on par with the A1.

My X-T2 + 16-55 is so much easier to handle than the IV + 24-70 Gmaster. That combo is way too heavy for me and my one handed handling. The IQ gain - not much in my book and I dislike Sony colors - isn’t worth it.

If the H2 provides the jump in pixel count without too much noise in the shadows it may be the mid-camera jump while the real version II of the GFX50 sensor is available - in a few years.

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Damien Frost New Member • Posts: 8
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?
1

I'm dreaming with GH6 or mini D500 body for H2...

John Gellings
John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 8,358
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?
2

Batdude wrote:

Samuraidog wrote:

Watching reviews today on Youtube about the Sony A7 IV, it had me thinking that Fujifilm may have made a mistake postponing the release of the X-H2 this year in favor of making a big splash on their 10th anniversary. Of course, the stacked sensor in the X-H2 will probably make a big difference, but I'd think that Fujifilm will lose some potential sales to the A7 IV.

Also, Fujifilm will have to make great strides in AF. If the X-H2 can't compete with the A7 IV in human eye AF, it will also be a huge disappointment. Add to that, the significant improvements in the A7 IV's animal eye AF.

Call me crazy, but I'm hoping for an X-H2 at less than $2500 that is nearly on par with the A1.

I agree with everything you said. Fuji does NOT want to be reading the type of review after review like the Pentax K3III expressing how they are asking for too much money for the XH2 because is an APS-C. Yeah, the XH2 won't be a DSLR and I'm 100% sure it won't be as bad as the K3III, not even close, but is still an APS-C. Again, it HAS to have something special and unique as other have said too, so that XH2 owners won't get really upset when the XT5 shows up.

I'm Just saying

Let’s face it, if you are using Fuji it’s because you think they still offer something unique.  If you just want the coolest specs, then there are surely better deals.  Sony could sell that A7 IV for $1500 and I still wouldn’t want it.  I just do not like using Sony cameras.

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palane Regular Member • Posts: 252
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?
1

Your 1 and 2 are along way off.

FF 90mp divided by the square of the crop equals a 40mp Apsc.

The wafer that the present BSI is cut from is 102 MF...61 FF,the GFX and Sony A7R4 use the same wafer for their sensors.

kamerakiri Regular Member • Posts: 376
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?

palane wrote:

Your 1 and 2 are along way off.

FF 90mp divided by the square of the crop equals a 40mp Apsc.

The wafer that the present BSI is cut from is 102 MF...61 FF,the GFX and Sony A7R4 use the same wafer for their sensors.

Correct! Sorry for the mishap in math.

Fuji APS-C 40 Mp would be 90 Mp Full Frame, 160 Mp GFX, and 22 Mp MFT. So, higher than what I wrote. I missed the square of crop factor.

In effect industry leading pixel density across the board. I don't think people estimate how stressful creating a lens to perform at such level is. Like 18 hour work day level of stress.

Fujifilm engineers are pushing it to extreme(for the present standard). Hope that Fujifilm updates the JPEG engine to take advantage of this leap in resolution.

palane Regular Member • Posts: 252
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?

The Gh6 is supposed to be coming out with around 22mp,so guessing the new wafer will go into the next GFX as well, along with the a7R5.

It will be VERY interesting when the capability of XH2 are known to the consumer.

Guyps Contributing Member • Posts: 501
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?
2

kamerakiri wrote:

palane wrote:

Your 1 and 2 are along way off.

FF 90mp divided by the square of the crop equals a 40mp Apsc.

The wafer that the present BSI is cut from is 102 MF...61 FF,the GFX and Sony A7R4 use the same wafer for their sensors.

Correct! Sorry for the mishap in math.

Fuji APS-C 40 Mp would be 90 Mp Full Frame, 160 Mp GFX, and 22 Mp MFT. So, higher than what I wrote. I missed the square of crop factor.

In effect industry leading pixel density across the board. I don't think people estimate how stressful creating a lens to perform at such level is. Like 18 hour work day level of stress.

Fujifilm engineers are pushing it to extreme(for the present standard). Hope that Fujifilm updates the JPEG engine to take advantage of this leap in resolution.

I wish they would spend those hours attempting to catch up on AF performance 

No point in having more pixels if they are blurry!

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Batdude
Batdude Veteran Member • Posts: 5,855
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?

John Gellings wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Samuraidog wrote:

Watching reviews today on Youtube about the Sony A7 IV, it had me thinking that Fujifilm may have made a mistake postponing the release of the X-H2 this year in favor of making a big splash on their 10th anniversary. Of course, the stacked sensor in the X-H2 will probably make a big difference, but I'd think that Fujifilm will lose some potential sales to the A7 IV.

Also, Fujifilm will have to make great strides in AF. If the X-H2 can't compete with the A7 IV in human eye AF, it will also be a huge disappointment. Add to that, the significant improvements in the A7 IV's animal eye AF.

Call me crazy, but I'm hoping for an X-H2 at less than $2500 that is nearly on par with the A1.

I agree with everything you said. Fuji does NOT want to be reading the type of review after review like the Pentax K3III expressing how they are asking for too much money for the XH2 because is an APS-C. Yeah, the XH2 won't be a DSLR and I'm 100% sure it won't be as bad as the K3III, not even close, but is still an APS-C. Again, it HAS to have something special and unique as other have said too, so that XH2 owners won't get really upset when the XT5 shows up.

I'm Just saying

Let’s face it, if you are using Fuji it’s because you think they still offer something unique. If you just want the coolest specs, then there are surely better deals. Sony could sell that A7 IV for $1500 and I still wouldn’t want it. I just do not like using Sony cameras.

That’s what I told my wife that some people here in the Fuji forum really don’t like Sony, but it looks like a lot of people do like it because everywhere I go someone is using a Sony.  And the truth is that Sony has answered to all the complaints people had so that mentality that Sony “sucks” might be a thing of the past pretty soon.
By the way I too know people that don’t like Fuji and they would never buy a Fuji camera.

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Jerry-astro
MOD Jerry-astro Forum Pro • Posts: 18,457
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?

Batdude wrote:

Let’s face it, if you are using Fuji it’s because you think they still offer something unique. If you just want the coolest specs, then there are surely better deals. Sony could sell that A7 IV for $1500 and I still wouldn’t want it. I just do not like using Sony cameras.

That’s what I told my wife that some people here in the Fuji forum really don’t like Sony, but it looks like a lot of people do like it because everywhere I go someone is using a Sony. And the truth is that Sony has answered to all the complaints people had so that mentality that Sony “sucks” might be a thing of the past pretty soon.
By the way I too know people that don’t like Fuji and they would never buy a Fuji camera.

Well, count me in the group that hasn’t been much of a Sony fan.  However, my experience with Sony (NEX series) was quite a few years back and I have little doubt that Sony cameras have evolved and improved significantly since that time.  Sony has struggled with developing a user friendly interface that is intuitive and not highly menu driven (and it’s not just their cameras that have suffered from this issue).  So, many of us who might be — well, let’s call it less than enthusiastic — about that brand actually base that on some experience, not just a simple bias against Sony’s cameras.

Regardless of all that, everyone has their own preferences and biases.  As you point out, not everyone who picks up a Fujifilm camera enjoys the experience or feels compelled to change brands from what they’re currently using.  Sony has managed to build a name for themselves and a pretty decent product line.  There’s no question that they are a brand to be contended with.  All that said, given my earlier experience, I seriously doubt that I would consider changing brands as long as Fujifilm continues to innovate and develop products that meet or exceed my own needs.  YMMV.

Bottom line, I don’t think you need to defend Sony here.  Their success in the market speaks for itself.

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John Gellings
John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 8,358
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?
1

Batdude wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Samuraidog wrote:

Watching reviews today on Youtube about the Sony A7 IV, it had me thinking that Fujifilm may have made a mistake postponing the release of the X-H2 this year in favor of making a big splash on their 10th anniversary. Of course, the stacked sensor in the X-H2 will probably make a big difference, but I'd think that Fujifilm will lose some potential sales to the A7 IV.

Also, Fujifilm will have to make great strides in AF. If the X-H2 can't compete with the A7 IV in human eye AF, it will also be a huge disappointment. Add to that, the significant improvements in the A7 IV's animal eye AF.

Call me crazy, but I'm hoping for an X-H2 at less than $2500 that is nearly on par with the A1.

I agree with everything you said. Fuji does NOT want to be reading the type of review after review like the Pentax K3III expressing how they are asking for too much money for the XH2 because is an APS-C. Yeah, the XH2 won't be a DSLR and I'm 100% sure it won't be as bad as the K3III, not even close, but is still an APS-C. Again, it HAS to have something special and unique as other have said too, so that XH2 owners won't get really upset when the XT5 shows up.

I'm Just saying

Let’s face it, if you are using Fuji it’s because you think they still offer something unique. If you just want the coolest specs, then there are surely better deals. Sony could sell that A7 IV for $1500 and I still wouldn’t want it. I just do not like using Sony cameras.

That’s what I told my wife that some people here in the Fuji forum really don’t like Sony, but it looks like a lot of people do like it because everywhere I go someone is using a Sony.

Oh I agree. Sony is certainly more popular and also easier to obtain. But us diehard Fuji users don't care about popularity contests.

And the truth is that Sony has answered to all the complaints people had so that mentality that Sony “sucks” might be a thing of the past pretty soon.

I've tried a handful of Sonys for extended periods of time, the A7R, A7II, A7RII, A7c, RX1RII etc... a few of the RX100 series. They still are horrible ergonomically and the menus are still too overly complex.  It's obviously I've wanted to like them right? I just do not.

By the way I too know people that don’t like Fuji and they would never buy a Fuji camera.

Of course...

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Batdude
Batdude Veteran Member • Posts: 5,855
Re: Breathing room for the X-H2?

Jerry-astro wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Let’s face it, if you are using Fuji it’s because you think they still offer something unique. If you just want the coolest specs, then there are surely better deals. Sony could sell that A7 IV for $1500 and I still wouldn’t want it. I just do not like using Sony cameras.

That’s what I told my wife that some people here in the Fuji forum really don’t like Sony, but it looks like a lot of people do like it because everywhere I go someone is using a Sony. And the truth is that Sony has answered to all the complaints people had so that mentality that Sony “sucks” might be a thing of the past pretty soon.
By the way I too know people that don’t like Fuji and they would never buy a Fuji camera.

Well, count me in the group that hasn’t been much of a Sony fan. However, my experience with Sony (NEX series) was quite a few years back and I have little doubt that Sony cameras have evolved and improved significantly since that time. Sony has struggled with developing a user friendly interface that is intuitive and not highly menu driven (and it’s not just their cameras that have suffered from this issue). So, many of us who might be — well, let’s call it less than enthusiastic — about that brand actually base that on some experience, not just a simple bias against Sony’s cameras.

Regardless of all that, everyone has their own preferences and biases. As you point out, not everyone who picks up a Fujifilm camera enjoys the experience or feels compelled to change brands from what they’re currently using. Sony has managed to build a name for themselves and a pretty decent product line. There’s no question that they are a brand to be contended with. All that said, given my earlier experience, I seriously doubt that I would consider changing brands as long as Fujifilm continues to innovate and develop products that meet or exceed my own needs. YMMV.

Bottom line, I don’t think you need to defend Sony here. Their success in the market speaks for itself.

I agree with everything you said.  I’m not defending Sony because I myself have never felt compelled to buy their cameras, until now.  I’m mainly looking at the A7IV because looks and feels like that is the piece of gear for me at this time.  I’m not in love with that company nor I’m defending it and I have always been open minded with any brand, including Pentax.

 Batdude's gear list:Batdude's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Nikon D4 Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm X-T1 Fujifilm X-T3 +10 more
OP Canadianguy Senior Member • Posts: 2,809
Re: MkI & II
2

John Gellings wrote:

Oh I agree. Sony is certainly more popular and also easier to obtain. But us diehard Fuji users don't care about popularity contests.

And the truth is that Sony has answered to all the complaints people had so that mentality that Sony “sucks” might be a thing of the past pretty soon.

I've tried a handful of Sonys for extended periods of time, the A7R, A7II, A7RII, A7c, RX1RII etc... a few of the RX100 series. They still are horrible ergonomically and the menus are still too overly complex. It's obviously I've wanted to like them right? I just do not.

By the way I too know people that don’t like Fuji and they would never buy a Fuji camera.

Of course...

It appears your experience with Sony is with their MkI and II generation of cameras. I would have to agree - their MkI and II cameras were garbage - I wouldn't waste my time on them.

MkIII and now their MkIV generation (A9II, A1, A7IV) bodies is where the action is. Try one of their MkIV bodies and you will be surprised.

I look back on the MkI (12 MP sensors) and MkII (16 MP sensor) Fujifilm bodies and they were a bit_h to use. Sure - the images came out great but you had to fight the AF system to get them. So I wouldn't say that Fujifilm wasn't that much better than Sony in their Gen 1 & 2 bodies.

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