Canon R5 help...weird swirls in images

Swirls on the left, Topaz DeNoise AI (Severe Noise) correction on the right.

Yours is the first comment that I've read that mirrors my own experiences.

I have the exact same problem with both of my Canon R3 bodies when I shoot in even moderately low light and try to edit the photos using Lightroom Classic. However, if I export the photos into Topaz DeNoise AI, and choose the "Severe Noise" option, I then get a muddy but noise-free, usuable (but not great) image.

I switched from shooting with Nikon for 50 years to shooting with the Canon R3, because I shoot a lot of auto racing and the R3 has great auto racing autofocus. However, I do not recall ever having this swirls issue with my Nikon cameras, up to and including my D5 and D4S. I sold all of my Nikon gear to raise some money to buy my new gear, so I cannot go back. With my D5, I was easily able to shoot in low light using ISO 32,000. With my R3 cameras, even photos shot at ISO 25,600 are full of swirls. The fact that you have not experienced this with your Canon DSLR suggests to me that it might be a Canon mirrorless issue.

I, too, need to find a solution to this problem other than the Topaz DeNoise AI bandaid.

Jan

Karl_Guttag wrote:

draacor wrote:

I actually get something similar but not with every shot. I think it has something to do with Lightroom. If I use DPP and save as tiff and import into Lightroom the issue goes away.

First, the circular ring pattern does not look like something a camera could do.

Second, time and again on this forum, people have found that Adobe's raw converter has serious problems, particularly with low light noise.

Thrid, definitely try DPP4 and get a "baseline reading."

Fourth, give DxO PureRAW or PL4 with DeepPrime a try (free trial and often sale). It is widely recognized as the best RAW converter for reducing noise while preserving detail. In my tests, DxO can be good for 2 to 3 stops over Adobe Camera RAW, which is just ridiculous. Adobe is not even trying with their RAW converter.

I shoot with two Canon R3 mirrorless cameras and have the exact same problem with low light swirls that Paul does. I shoot a lot of photos in low light. The highest ISO I can use is 25,600 and those are full of swirls. I use Lightroom Classic for editing. I can get rid of the swirls by further editing in the Topaz DeNoise AI plugin, but the resulting image is not very good quality (muddy-looking). Nevertheless I use that because I have to.

I would be fine with switching other editing software that could solve this problem, but I have tens of thousands of photos in a Lightroom catalog. I must continue using that catalog. All of my photos for years are in there and, as a member of the press, I often need to revisit and reuse my older photos.

Jan

Karl_Guttag wrote:

draacor wrote:

I actually get something similar but not with every shot. I think it has something to do with Lightroom. If I use DPP and save as tiff and import into Lightroom the issue goes away.

First, the circular ring pattern does not look like something a camera could do.

Second, time and again on this forum, people have found that Adobe's raw converter has serious problems, particularly with low light noise.

Thrid, definitely try DPP4 and get a "baseline reading."

Fourth, give DxO PureRAW or PL4 with DeepPrime a try (free trial and often sale). It is widely recognized as the best RAW converter for reducing noise while preserving detail. In my tests, DxO can be good for 2 to 3 stops over Adobe Camera RAW, which is just ridiculous. Adobe is not even trying with their RAW converter.

Karl,

Can I use the DxO PureRaw or PL4 and still edit my photos with Adobe Classic? I have tens of thousands of photos in my Adobe catalog and I cannot switch how I store my photos at this point. As a member of the press, I frequently need to search for and use photos that I shot even years ago.

Jan

Quarkcharmed wrote:

Pmm85 wrote:

The R5...I still think is noiser than my 5D IV when it comes to needing to pull detail from shadows in low light, but at least the rings/swirls are sorted out.

The R5 is much less noisy than 5DIV, if you shoot in the game conditions and settings. I had 5DIV and can compare.

If your R5's images are noisy, there's something wrong with either the camera, or settings, or workflow.

Check if you have something like highlight tone priority or electronic shutter enabled (don't use electronic shutter at ISOs less than 800).

Thanks everyone!

I have the exact same problem with my two Canon R3 cameras. I shoot a lot in low light conditions and often at ISO 25,600, which is the highest ISO that I can get away with before the pictures are completely unusable.I use Lightroom Classic to edit my photos and have tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of phtos organized in one Lightroom Classic catalog. As a member of the press, I need to occasionally search for and use old photos, so I really cannot switch where I catalog my images.

I have been hiding the swirls by using the Topaz AI plug-in when I am editing in Lightroom Classic. That gets rid of the swirls but the resulting images are muddy and barely usable without extensive tweaking.

It sounds like Paul was able to get rid of the swirls by changing editing software, but it sounds like you are blaming using electronic shutter mode when shooting at high ISO. I use electronic shutter mode exclusively with my two R3 cameras, no matter what the ISO. I thought that the only potential problem with using electron shutter was a "rolling shutter" effect, which I have not seen in my photos. Is this another problem with using electronic shutter?

I had switched from 50 years of shooting with Nikon DSLRs to switch to the Canon R3, because I shoot a lot of professional auto racing. The R3 has great race car autofocus. I had sold all of my Nikon gear, so switching back to Nikon was not possible.

Please advise. Thank you.

Jan

John Sheehy wrote:

Quarkcharmed wrote:

Pmm85 wrote:

The R5...I still think is noiser than my 5D IV when it comes to needing to pull detail from shadows in low light, but at least the rings/swirls are sorted out.

The R5 is much less noisy than 5DIV, if you shoot in the game conditions and settings. I had 5DIV and can compare.

If your R5's images are noisy, there's something wrong with either the camera, or settings, or workflow.

... or manner of inspecting. Lots of people don't fully understand the role of pixel size in both the magnification that they inspect at, or the effect it has on the default sharpening in a converter. Converters' "Sharpness" controls operate at the pixel level, which is a different image frequency for different pixel counts, for the same sensor area used. So, converters assume that the user wants pixel-level sharpness, no matter what the pixel size is, making cameras with smaller pixels seem noisier, as an illusion. For larger pixels, the sharpness mainly tries to recap the analog micro-contrast contrast lost to the AA filter, and for much smaller pixels, it is also trying to compensate for diffraction and aberration, too, which attenuate neighbor-pixel contrast more with smaller pixels. If the converter doesn't do this extra sharpening with smaller pixels by default, the user will likely do it.

Check if you have something like highlight tone priority or electronic shutter enabled (don't use electronic shutter at ISOs less than 800).

Electronic shutter is noisier at all ISOs, mainly in the deepest shadows at low ISOs, and reaching into higher tones at high ISOs. The difference is quite visible at ISO 51,200. There's a difference between reading out the sensor in 14 bits and then quantizing to 12 bits, vs reading out in 12 bits to begin with.

HTP isn't too bad in 14 bits, but HTP plus 12 bit e-shutter is a bit worse than just HTP or just e-shutter. The fine horizontal banding noise is worse in 12-bit e-shutter; it disappears readily with downsampling or NR or filtering, but may be a nuisance with high magnification of the original resolution.

I have the exact same problem with my two Canon R3 bodies. Since I do a lot of low light photography, should I just change the settings on my two Canon R3 bodies from electronic shutter, where they are now, to mechanical shutter. Will that solve the problem? I have been using electronic shutter to save wear and tear on the camera bodies, but if that is what is causing this extreme moire effect in my many low light images, then I will switch to shooting with the mechanical shutter.

I switched from Nikon DSLRs (most recently their D5 and D4S) to shoot with the Canon R3 bodies because I shoot a lot of motorsports and Canon's autofocus for car racing is the best that I've ever experienced.

I edit using Lightroom Classic mostly. For my many pictures with swirls, I am able to get rid of the swirls by using the Topaz DeNoise AI plugin from Lightroom. The "Severe Noise" choice gets rid of the swirls, but the resulting image is muddy-looking — usable but not great, for sure.

I have tens of thousands of my images catalogued in one Lightroom catalog. I am a member of the press and often need to search through my old images to use them in stories, so I need to keep storing in that catalog. Can other, better software/RAW converters still allow me to edit in Lightroom Classic and save to my existing Lightroom catalog?

Thank you.

Jan

Pmm85 wrote:

Hi,

I have a Canon R5, and during editing, especially when anything over a +8 bump in shadows or small bump up in exposure is done this weird circles pattern engulfs the image making it unusable. I've exaggerated the edit it in the attached image so you can see the pattern, but this doesn't happen on my 5D IV or 5D III when doing the same thing with the same settings. It's pretty much rendered the R5 useless because it shows up doing very minimal editing using Lightroom or ACR. It shows up at most ISOs, and the images across all ranges seem noisy (no matter of how much light I get on the sensor. Is it a noisy camera compared to the 5D IV, even just raising shadows a little seems to bring up noise the 5D IV doesn't have issues with pulling up in the same settings/setup. I can't reproduce the patterns/swirls doing the same on my 5D bodies.

Can anyone help? Is my R5 faulty?

Any help would be great, I'm totally stuck.

Thanks.

Paul

I've been on the phone for an hour with Canon and then the rest of the afternoon with Adobe. The swirls are not there if the photos are opened in Canon's Digital Photo Professional 4 or in PhotoShop. You can edit the photos there and then export them to Lightroom Classic so that you can have them in your Lightroom Catalog. The moire effect is only visible in the Develop Module of Lightroom Classic, not in its Library Module. Adobe is going to try to figure out what is going on with CR3 photos shot at high ISOs and then call me back.

By the way, Canon said that the electronic shutter is fine to use for high ISO images. Using the manual shutter in an R3 should not be necessary to stop the moire effect showing up in the Lightroom Classic Develop Module.

One problem with using DPP4 is that it takes forever to load and then process edits on Apple computers using the new Ventura 13.2.1 MacOS.

Jan

I spent a lot of time on the phone with Canon and Adobe about this yesterday. Adobe escalated the issue and is supposed to phone me back late this afternoon — hopefully with a solution.

Jan

Pmm85 wrote:

Hi,

I have a Canon R5, and during editing, especially when anything over a +8 bump in shadows or small bump up in exposure is done this weird circles pattern engulfs the image making it unusable. I've exaggerated the edit it in the attached image so you can see the pattern, but this doesn't happen on my 5D IV or 5D III when doing the same thing with the same settings. It's pretty much rendered the R5 useless because it shows up doing very minimal editing using Lightroom or ACR. It shows up at most ISOs, and the images across all ranges seem noisy (no matter of how much light I get on the sensor. Is it a noisy camera compared to the 5D IV, even just raising shadows a little seems to bring up noise the 5D IV doesn't have issues with pulling up in the same settings/setup. I can't reproduce the patterns/swirls doing the same on my 5D bodies.

Can anyone help? Is my R5 faulty?

Any help would be great, I'm totally stuck.

Thanks.

Paul

I SENT THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE (minus photo #3 — it was too large) to Adobe Customer Care, after two phone conversations with them on March 2 & 3, 2023.

Jan

I sent this with FOUR images (including the original Canon RAW .CR3 image) to the Adobe prerelease forum:

Adobe Lightroom Classic Forum for the "Lightroom Prerelease Program (for the "entire Lightroom family, including Lightroom Classic and Lightroom CC):

https://www.adobeprerelease.com/beta/58066397-8A54-4025-8C68-8672C4F87759/feedback/home#

Problem Description:

There is a serious, ongoing problem with Lightroom Classic when editing high ISO Canon RAW (.CR3) images in the Lightroom Classic DEVELOP MODULE (many versions, for over a year). When the EXPOSURE of those images is INCREASED SIGNIFICANTLY in Lightroom Classic’s DEVELOP MODULE, doing that introduces a strong MOIRE EFFECT that can be seen over the entire image. This MOIRE EFFECT can be most easily seen in the otherwise very dark areas of images.

IMPORTANT: This MOIRE EFFECT can only be seen while editing images in the Lightroom Classic Develop Module. When that image is exported, the MOIRE EFFECT disappears. This suggests what is being seen only affects the PREVIEW copy of the image, which is what is seen while editing images in the Lightroom Classic Develop Module. The actual edited image, when exported, does NOT have this MOIRE EFFECT.

It is not possible to correctly edit images when this MOIRE EFFECT covers them. When editing images, it is necessary to see how they are actually going to look when the images are exported. The moire effect makes it impossible to see if there are problems with the image that need to be corrected in editing, before they are exported. The moire effect hides problems like grain, poor focus, etec.

The MOIRE EFFECT is not there if the same images are opened in Canon’s proprietary DPP4 (Digital Photo Professional 4) editing software. I phoned Canon Professional Services. They are aware of this issue with Canon’s RAW .CR3 images when opened in Adobe Lightroom. They told me that there is nothing they can do about it. They suggested that I contact Adobe.

This problem has been noted and discussed in the popular DP Review forum for over the past year. See https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66907834

Please do something about this.

Steps to Reproduce:

1. Open any high ISO Canon RAW image (.CR3) with dark areas.
2. In the DEVELOP MODULE of Lightroom Classic, increase the exposure.
3. The greater the exposure increase, the stronger the MOIRE EFFECT (and the noise, of course) will be.

Actual Result:

A strong MOIRE EFFECT, along with increased noise. when viewed in the Lightroom Classic Develop Module, but NO MOIRE EFFECT when that exact same image is exported. The MOIRE EFFECT is only visible while editing in the Develop Module.

Expected Result:

Just increased noise.

Any Workarounds:

Open the images in Canon's proprietary DPP4 editing software, where there is no MOIRE EFFECT, or clean it up as best as possible, when editing in Lightroom Classic, by further editing in the Topaz DeNoise AI plug-in — but doing so significantly worsens the sharpness of the images..

System Info:iMac Pro, MacOS Ventura 13.2.1 plus previous versions of the OS (this has been a problem for over a year)I a

I attached FOUR images from the Lightroom Classic Develop module in my submission to the Adobe Prerelease Forum. Here I am only attaching TWO images — one BEFORE I increased the exposure and one AFTER increasing the exposure, but before exporting it — at which time the moire effect disappeared. The full size Canon RAW .CR3 image and the exported image that just shows noise, but no moire effect, are too large to be sent in an email:

IMAGE #1:

As seen in Lightroom Classic BEFORE increasing the exposure:

IMAGE #2:

As seen in Lightroom Classic AFTER increasing the exposure. Note the strong Moire Effect that is only seen within the Lightroom Classic Develop Module. This moire effect disappears when the image is exported. This moire effect is not present when the .CR3 image is opened in Canon’s proprietary DPP4 image editing software:

IMAGE #3:

As seen AFTER exporting the image. Note that the MOIRE EFFECT IS GONE. The image is just very grainy, which is to be expected. This moire effect is NOT present when the .CR3 image is opened in Canon’s proprietary DPP4 image editing software:

Jan