7DIII?

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
Mark B.
Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 28,983
Re: R6
1

IR1234 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

No, it's not.

Why? Because it says 6?

Don't be silly.  Because if I put my 500 on it and crop to get the same field of view as I would on the 7D ii, I'm left with an 8mp image.  And if I'm shooting with the 500 (and let's assume I'm also including the 1.4x), I'm already as close as I can get.

Look at the specs of the two cameras, they are nearly identical with the exception of APS-C and Full Frame.

Pixel density is not. See above.

Where is the APS-C camera in the RF range? There isn't one.

Yet...

Canon literally aren't making one and have set the RP at the new entry level price point and that too is full frame.

The RP replaces the 6D series, which has been approaching the $1k mark.

We are over 3 years into the RF range - and no APS-C camera. And the 7D2 is now 7 years old and still "no replacement". Yet there is a replacement camera that is identical on nearly every spec - apart from sensor size.

We're a big 7D/7D2 user, we have something like 6 7Ds and 5 7D2s in our fleet. But face it, there is no 7D2 APS-C replacement.

Yet.

The next move is the R6.

I have it, and so i can say with absolute certainty it is not a suitable replacement.  For long telephoto work i would need much longer, and far more expensive lenses to get the same number of pixels on the subject.  They are different cameras for different uses.

Mark B.
Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 28,983
Re: 7DIII? NO LENSES...the end for APS-c DSLR

davev8 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

davev8 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

i let you be the judge whether any more APS-c bodies are coming ....the profit is in the lenses right..here is a list of APS-c lenses Canon has announced are being discontinude

Those are EF-S mount. All that says is there will be no more APS-C DSLR bodies. It says nothing for a potential APS-C mirrorless.

well obviously they are DSLR lenses ..but as i was replying to the OP that was asking about whether there will be a 7Diii DSLR or not ..he did not ask about a new APS-c MILC

The fact that more than 1/2 the APS-c lenses have been discontinued in 1 go is a strong indication there won't be any new APS-c DSLRs, well high end anyway ...most rebel uses just use the kit lens

There won't be any new DSLR bodies, period.  Neither APS-C nor FF.  I think that is very obvious.

davev8
davev8 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,580
Re: Let it go...
1

Tannin wrote:

I agree that I am in the minority, Dave8, but as any successful businessman knows, minorities, specialties, and niche markets are huge profit centres.

only at a high cost ..look at Leica would you pay 6K for a basic DSLR in 10 years' time that an entry-level MILC will do everything better??

And the SLR-buying part of the market is huge. Bigger than mirrorless? Of course not. But it doesn't need to be, it just needs to be big enough to provide a return on the R&D. Given that there is very little R&D required for a DSLR, it's a no-brainer.

Think about it: what does Canon have to spend to make (for example) a 5D V?

Body: pretty much nothing: DSLR body design has already reached perfection, or very very close to it.

Optical path (mirror, viewfinder, etc.). Nothing. All this engineering has already been done.

Sensor: pretty much nothing: sensors can be (and already have been) carried over from the equivalent mirrorless body at minimal cost.

Sort answer: it will cost them very little, and there is a pent-up market waiting for product.

i am afraid in business it don't work like that when it comes to costs

canon don't have a single production line for each lens and each body but several doing them all

they do a run on a line for so many body or lenses over a set time which then the items go into storage and are shipped out when needed, then the line is changed out to do another body/lens and after that another and hopefully they get all the different body/lenses made before the 1st body/lenses run out of stock...

they will make items with as many shared components as possible to keep costs down and the body/lenses with the most shared items will follow each other when the line is swapped out an E.G could be the EF40mm F2.8 and the EF-s 24mm F2,8 both look pretty much the same and will share many components so it will be sensible to make one after the other as there may be little to change on the line so keeping costly downtime to a minimum

so when you have say a 5Dmk5 that will share hardly any components with anything else which means its component becomes costly and make a lot of downtime swapping lines out it very quickly becomes not cost-effective.

but even if it was not making a loss manufactures are at capacity with some components probably sensors in canons case as they make them from 2 fabs 1 making the old type sensors one making the new ones (this is why the 6Dii got an old type sensor to keep the new sensors for higher-margin cameras from the new fab)

so canon are also likely to knock on the head an older less profitable body to sell more profitable bodys its better to put the limited supply of sensors (or it could be production capacity) in the most profitable bodys

canon know what it costs to make a body ..they know the profit margins are WE DONT

if canon discontinues a body you can bet its down to profitability ..if it was not why would they stop????

they will also factor in possible lost customers in the equation

so if you realy realy don't want a body with an EVF i should start to look at Pentax sooner rather than later..if there is enough folk like yourself Pentax will always be in business ..if you doubt that then it disproves your argument

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Attention Dislexsic i mean dyslexic person... This post will have many although spell checked, spelling and grammatical errs ..its The best its going get so no need to tell me it is bad I know it is .....................................................................................................
the EOS M is not dead and wont be for a long time ....as long as you don't want a flagship camera with a VF...if that's the case it died sometime ago
My 5D IS a MK1 classic
.........................................................................................................
There is no argument for FF vs APS-c (or m43) with shallow DOF..as it's a law of physics and a very subjective personal thing if you want to make use of the shallow DOF only FF can offer
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If you wait for a camera that will tick all your boxes ....by then you will have more boxes to tick..... so the wait continues .....David Appleton

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davev8
davev8 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,580
Re: Let it go...

Tannin wrote:

Back to the original topic - when will there be a replacement for the 7D II?

Answer: it has already been replaced by a camera which is very similar but superior in a number of respects, and inferior only in one - frame rate. The 5D IV has been my 7D II replacement, and it has brought >>better noise,<<<< better AF, better low-light AF, >>higher resolution,<<

this is not so when you are focal length restricted like birding ETC .. when you crop by 1.6X you well have less resolution and the same noise

The only canon camera that can replace the 7Dmkii at the moment is the R5..and it will be an upgrade in every way ,,but at a cost

improved controls, bigger, brighter viewfinder .... and I don't miss the frame rate even though I've owned a series of fast cameras including 7D, 7D II, 1D III and 1D IV.

I still have my 7D II and use it often, but as a second or third camera behind the superb-in-all-respects 5D IV.

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Attention Dislexsic i mean dyslexic person... This post will have many although spell checked, spelling and grammatical errs ..its The best its going get so no need to tell me it is bad I know it is .....................................................................................................
the EOS M is not dead and wont be for a long time ....as long as you don't want a flagship camera with a VF...if that's the case it died sometime ago
My 5D IS a MK1 classic
.........................................................................................................
There is no argument for FF vs APS-c (or m43) with shallow DOF..as it's a law of physics and a very subjective personal thing if you want to make use of the shallow DOF only FF can offer
.....................................................................................................
If you wait for a camera that will tick all your boxes ....by then you will have more boxes to tick..... so the wait continues .....David Appleton

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Dave
Dave Veteran Member • Posts: 6,032
Re: R6
1

John Sheehy wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

APS-C is done. It's over.

Pixel density is not over, and there is probably a larger market for an ~32.5MP APS-C RF body than an ~83MP FF with ~32.5MP in crop mode, which would be far more expensive, and may have less effective IBIS.

Agreed, and by the time that body comes along EVF advancements may remove most concerns.

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IR1234 Senior Member • Posts: 1,891
Re: R6
1

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

No, it's not.

Why? Because it says 6?

Don't be silly. Because if I put my 500 on it and crop to get the same field of view as I would on the 7D ii, I'm left with an 8mp image. And if I'm shooting with the 500 (and let's assume I'm also including the 1.4x), I'm already as close as I can get.

Look at the specs of the two cameras, they are nearly identical with the exception of APS-C and Full Frame.

Pixel density is not. See above.

Where is the APS-C camera in the RF range? There isn't one.

Yet...

Canon literally aren't making one and have set the RP at the new entry level price point and that too is full frame.

The RP replaces the 6D series, which has been approaching the $1k mark.

We are over 3 years into the RF range - and no APS-C camera. And the 7D2 is now 7 years old and still "no replacement". Yet there is a replacement camera that is identical on nearly every spec - apart from sensor size.

We're a big 7D/7D2 user, we have something like 6 7Ds and 5 7D2s in our fleet. But face it, there is no 7D2 APS-C replacement.

Yet.

The next move is the R6.

I have it, and so i can say with absolute certainty it is not a suitable replacement. For long telephoto work i would need much longer, and far more expensive lenses to get the same number of pixels on the subject. They are different cameras for different uses.

I do not know why but you guys simply won't accept it, APS-C is pretty much dead at this point. APS-C was built for price, not for crop or pixel density, that's why it was released on a Rebel and not a 1 series. Canon like everyone else are getting out of the lower end camera market as there is no more money to be made there.

Even the fact that Canon is not launching cameras with APS-C yet you still find excuses to keep your head in the sand. Maybe they will launch an APS-C R, but there is nothing, absolutely nothing that Canon has done in the last 3 years that suggests it's going to do it - yet you still have this deranged hope. It's weird.

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Dave
Dave Veteran Member • Posts: 6,032
Re: Let it go...

Tannin wrote:

I agree that I am in the minority, Dave8, but as any successful businessman knows, minorities, specialties, and niche markets are huge profit centres. And the SLR-buying part of the market is huge. Bigger than mirrorless? Of course not. But it doesn't need to be, it just needs to be big enough to provide a return on the R&D. Given that there is very little R&D required for a DSLR, it's a no-brainer.

Think about it: what does Canon have to spend to make (for example) a 5D V?

Body: pretty much nothing: DSLR body design has already reached perfection, or very very close to it.

Optical path (mirror, viewfinder, etc.). Nothing. All this engineering has already been done.

Sensor: pretty much nothing: sensors can be (and already have been) carried over from the equivalent mirrorless body at minimal cost.

Sort answer: it will cost them very little, and there is a pent-up market waiting for product.

So just a sensor change with accompanying software updates?

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Dave
Dave Veteran Member • Posts: 6,032
Re: R6

IR1234 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

No, it's not.

Why? Because it says 6?

Don't be silly. Because if I put my 500 on it and crop to get the same field of view as I would on the 7D ii, I'm left with an 8mp image. And if I'm shooting with the 500 (and let's assume I'm also including the 1.4x), I'm already as close as I can get.

Look at the specs of the two cameras, they are nearly identical with the exception of APS-C and Full Frame.

Pixel density is not. See above.

Where is the APS-C camera in the RF range? There isn't one.

Yet...

Canon literally aren't making one and have set the RP at the new entry level price point and that too is full frame.

The RP replaces the 6D series, which has been approaching the $1k mark.

We are over 3 years into the RF range - and no APS-C camera. And the 7D2 is now 7 years old and still "no replacement". Yet there is a replacement camera that is identical on nearly every spec - apart from sensor size.

We're a big 7D/7D2 user, we have something like 6 7Ds and 5 7D2s in our fleet. But face it, there is no 7D2 APS-C replacement.

Yet.

The next move is the R6.

I have it, and so i can say with absolute certainty it is not a suitable replacement. For long telephoto work i would need much longer, and far more expensive lenses to get the same number of pixels on the subject. They are different cameras for different uses.

I do not know why but you guys simply won't accept it, APS-C is pretty much dead at this point. APS-C was built for price, not for crop or pixel density, that's why it was released on a Rebel and not a 1 series. Canon like everyone else are getting out of the lower end camera market as there is no more money to be made there.

I accept that APS-C was created to meet price/profitability targets.  What then explains the creation of the very capable 7D using the format?  Surely other alternatives existed when the decision was made.

Even the fact that Canon is not launching cameras with APS-C yet you still find excuses to keep your head in the sand. Maybe they will launch an APS-C R, but there is nothing, absolutely nothing that Canon has done in the last 3 years that suggests it's going to do it - yet you still have this deranged hope. It's weird.

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Klaus dk
Klaus dk Veteran Member • Posts: 8,780
Re: R6
1

Dave wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

No, it's not.

Why? Because it says 6?

Don't be silly. Because if I put my 500 on it and crop to get the same field of view as I would on the 7D ii, I'm left with an 8mp image. And if I'm shooting with the 500 (and let's assume I'm also including the 1.4x), I'm already as close as I can get.

Look at the specs of the two cameras, they are nearly identical with the exception of APS-C and Full Frame.

Pixel density is not. See above.

Where is the APS-C camera in the RF range? There isn't one.

Yet...

Canon literally aren't making one and have set the RP at the new entry level price point and that too is full frame.

The RP replaces the 6D series, which has been approaching the $1k mark.

We are over 3 years into the RF range - and no APS-C camera. And the 7D2 is now 7 years old and still "no replacement". Yet there is a replacement camera that is identical on nearly every spec - apart from sensor size.

We're a big 7D/7D2 user, we have something like 6 7Ds and 5 7D2s in our fleet. But face it, there is no 7D2 APS-C replacement.

Yet.

The next move is the R6.

I have it, and so i can say with absolute certainty it is not a suitable replacement. For long telephoto work i would need much longer, and far more expensive lenses to get the same number of pixels on the subject. They are different cameras for different uses.

I do not know why but you guys simply won't accept it, APS-C is pretty much dead at this point. APS-C was built for price, not for crop or pixel density, that's why it was released on a Rebel and not a 1 series. Canon like everyone else are getting out of the lower end camera market as there is no more money to be made there.

I accept that APS-C was created to meet price/profitability targets. What then explains the creation of the very capable 7D using the format? Surely other alternatives existed when the decision was made.

The decision was probably made somewhere in the beginning of 2008, when an 18Mp pro grade APS-C was a real show of development and manufacturing force with great marketing potential. Those who couldn't afford a 5D II or a 1Dsomething could have everything but the FF sensor, and the birders even got the crop factor reach advantage with plenty of pixels on subject. In those days, 18Mp was huge.

Since then, manufacturers have cleverly marketed FF as the only acceptable sensor size for pros and enthusiasts, so it's no wonder that Canon is now relegating APS-C to the consumer level M series. I doubt there's a big enough market for APS-C DSLRs.

Even the fact that Canon is not launching cameras with APS-C yet you still find excuses to keep your head in the sand. Maybe they will launch an APS-C R, but there is nothing, absolutely nothing that Canon has done in the last 3 years that suggests it's going to do it - yet you still have this deranged hope. It's weird.

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Distinctly Average Senior Member • Posts: 1,295
Re: R6
1

Klaus dk wrote:

Dave wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

No, it's not.

Why? Because it says 6?

Don't be silly. Because if I put my 500 on it and crop to get the same field of view as I would on the 7D ii, I'm left with an 8mp image. And if I'm shooting with the 500 (and let's assume I'm also including the 1.4x), I'm already as close as I can get.

Look at the specs of the two cameras, they are nearly identical with the exception of APS-C and Full Frame.

Pixel density is not. See above.

Where is the APS-C camera in the RF range? There isn't one.

Yet...

Canon literally aren't making one and have set the RP at the new entry level price point and that too is full frame.

The RP replaces the 6D series, which has been approaching the $1k mark.

We are over 3 years into the RF range - and no APS-C camera. And the 7D2 is now 7 years old and still "no replacement". Yet there is a replacement camera that is identical on nearly every spec - apart from sensor size.

We're a big 7D/7D2 user, we have something like 6 7Ds and 5 7D2s in our fleet. But face it, there is no 7D2 APS-C replacement.

Yet.

The next move is the R6.

I have it, and so i can say with absolute certainty it is not a suitable replacement. For long telephoto work i would need much longer, and far more expensive lenses to get the same number of pixels on the subject. They are different cameras for different uses.

I do not know why but you guys simply won't accept it, APS-C is pretty much dead at this point. APS-C was built for price, not for crop or pixel density, that's why it was released on a Rebel and not a 1 series. Canon like everyone else are getting out of the lower end camera market as there is no more money to be made there.

I accept that APS-C was created to meet price/profitability targets. What then explains the creation of the very capable 7D using the format? Surely other alternatives existed when the decision was made.

The decision was probably made somewhere in the beginning of 2008, when an 18Mp pro grade APS-C was a real show of development and manufacturing force with great marketing potential. Those who couldn't afford a 5D II or a 1Dsomething could have everything but the FF sensor, and the birders even got the crop factor reach advantage with plenty of pixels on subject. In those days, 18Mp was huge.

Since then, manufacturers have cleverly marketed FF as the only acceptable sensor size for pros and enthusiasts, so it's no wonder that Canon is now relegating APS-C to the consumer level M series. I doubt there's a big enough market for APS-C DSLRs.

Even the fact that Canon is not launching cameras with APS-C yet you still find excuses to keep your head in the sand. Maybe they will launch an APS-C R, but there is nothing, absolutely nothing that Canon has done in the last 3 years that suggests it's going to do it - yet you still have this deranged hope. It's weird.

I’m not so sure. For a given pixel density APS-C still comes in quite a bit cheaper. More sensors per wafer, less wafer wasted and more importantly, less memory and processing. The above is considering as 32mp aps-c vs 83mp full frame. It still makes a large difference in cost. If M got dropped then that would allow a single line also reducing manufacturer costs.

As for market, the 90D and 77D still sell very well according to my local dealer. So do crop Fuji and Sony models with both having some decent current models and predicted to do more. 
Whether we do see crop has yet to be seen, but a recent interview with a Canon exec strongly hinted at one.

It is certainly an interesting as well as frustrating time. I am looking forward to watching it develop. We are still in the very early stages.

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davev8
davev8 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,580
Re: 7DIII? NO LENSES...the end for APS-c DSLR

Mark B. wrote:

davev8 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

davev8 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

i let you be the judge whether any more APS-c bodies are coming ....the profit is in the lenses right..here is a list of APS-c lenses Canon has announced are being discontinude

Those are EF-S mount. All that says is there will be no more APS-C DSLR bodies. It says nothing for a potential APS-C mirrorless.

well obviously they are DSLR lenses ..but as i was replying to the OP that was asking about whether there will be a 7Diii DSLR or not ..he did not ask about a new APS-c MILC

The fact that more than 1/2 the APS-c lenses have been discontinued in 1 go is a strong indication there won't be any new APS-c DSLRs, well high end anyway ...most rebel uses just use the kit lens

There won't be any new DSLR bodies, period. Neither APS-C nor FF. I think that is very obvious.

yes that somes up what i say

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Attention Dislexsic i mean dyslexic person... This post will have many although spell checked, spelling and grammatical errs ..its The best its going get so no need to tell me it is bad I know it is .....................................................................................................
the EOS M is not dead and wont be for a long time ....as long as you don't want a flagship camera with a VF...if that's the case it died sometime ago
My 5D IS a MK1 classic
.........................................................................................................
There is no argument for FF vs APS-c (or m43) with shallow DOF..as it's a law of physics and a very subjective personal thing if you want to make use of the shallow DOF only FF can offer
.....................................................................................................
If you wait for a camera that will  tick all your boxes ....by then you will have more boxes to tick..... so the wait continues .....David Appleton

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IR1234 Senior Member • Posts: 1,891
Re: R6

Dave wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

APS-C is done. It's over.

Pixel density is not over, and there is probably a larger market for an ~32.5MP APS-C RF body than an ~83MP FF with ~32.5MP in crop mode, which would be far more expensive, and may have less effective IBIS.

Agreed, and by the time that body comes along EVF advancements may remove most concerns.

No one cares about pixel density. It was a way of selling cheap sensors 18 years ago.

Canon have the 90D for anyone truly wanting an APS-C DSLR at this point.

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davev8
davev8 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,580
Re: Lens signal

Klaus dk wrote:

If the EF-S 17-55/2.8 is discontinued and no replacement is released, that extinguishes any hope for more Canon APS-C pro grade DSLRs, IMO.

it  was a good lens..i kept an APS-c DSLR for quite a while after I went FF because of this lens

I think the market is too small and that the profit rates are too small. Pentax can see if they can get any profit out of it.

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Attention Dislexsic i mean dyslexic person... This post will have many although spell checked, spelling and grammatical errs ..its The best its going get so no need to tell me it is bad I know it is .....................................................................................................
the EOS M is not dead and wont be for a long time ....as long as you don't want a flagship camera with a VF...if that's the case it died sometime ago
My 5D IS a MK1 classic
.........................................................................................................
There is no argument for FF vs APS-c (or m43) with shallow DOF..as it's a law of physics and a very subjective personal thing if you want to make use of the shallow DOF only FF can offer
.....................................................................................................
If you wait for a camera that will  tick all your boxes ....by then you will have more boxes to tick..... so the wait continues .....David Appleton

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Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS R6 Canon EF 50mm F1.4 USM +5 more
Mark B.
Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 28,983
Re: R6

IR1234 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

No, it's not.

Why? Because it says 6?

Don't be silly. Because if I put my 500 on it and crop to get the same field of view as I would on the 7D ii, I'm left with an 8mp image. And if I'm shooting with the 500 (and let's assume I'm also including the 1.4x), I'm already as close as I can get.

Look at the specs of the two cameras, they are nearly identical with the exception of APS-C and Full Frame.

Pixel density is not. See above.

Where is the APS-C camera in the RF range? There isn't one.

Yet...

Canon literally aren't making one and have set the RP at the new entry level price point and that too is full frame.

The RP replaces the 6D series, which has been approaching the $1k mark.

We are over 3 years into the RF range - and no APS-C camera. And the 7D2 is now 7 years old and still "no replacement". Yet there is a replacement camera that is identical on nearly every spec - apart from sensor size.

We're a big 7D/7D2 user, we have something like 6 7Ds and 5 7D2s in our fleet. But face it, there is no 7D2 APS-C replacement.

Yet.

The next move is the R6.

I have it, and so i can say with absolute certainty it is not a suitable replacement. For long telephoto work i would need much longer, and far more expensive lenses to get the same number of pixels on the subject. They are different cameras for different uses.

I do not know why but you guys simply won't accept it, APS-C is pretty much dead at this point.

I'll accept it maybe at the end of next year if Canon does not come out with a mirrorless version. I don't know why "you guys" are so insistent on pushing the death of the format.

APS-C was built for price, not for crop or pixel density, that's why it was released on a Rebel and not a 1 series. Canon like everyone else are getting out of the lower end camera market as there is no more money to be made there.

I guess Nikon didn't get the memo.

Even the fact that Canon is not launching cameras with APS-C yet you still find excuses to keep your head in the sand. Maybe they will launch an APS-C R, but there is nothing, absolutely nothing that Canon has done in the last 3 years that suggests it's going to do it - yet you still have this deranged hope. It's weird.

LOL, this will be my last reply here.  When one side can't have a rational discussion w/o resorting to petty insults it's a good sign you have nothing valuable left to say.

Mark B.
Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 28,983
Re: R6

IR1234 wrote:

Dave wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

APS-C is done. It's over.

Pixel density is not over, and there is probably a larger market for an ~32.5MP APS-C RF body than an ~83MP FF with ~32.5MP in crop mode, which would be far more expensive, and may have less effective IBIS.

Agreed, and by the time that body comes along EVF advancements may remove most concerns.

No one cares about pixel density. It was a way of selling cheap sensors 18 years ago.

Canon have the 90D for anyone truly wanting an APS-C DSLR at this point.

The 7D II is only 7 years old, the 90D was released only 2 years ago.  There will be no more new DSLR bodies at all, and 7D II users are looking for a true upgrade to that body.  The 90D isn't quite it, so a mirrorless version would have great appeal to those users.

Distinctly Average Senior Member • Posts: 1,295
Re: R6
3

Mark B. wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Dave wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

APS-C is done. It's over.

Pixel density is not over, and there is probably a larger market for an ~32.5MP APS-C RF body than an ~83MP FF with ~32.5MP in crop mode, which would be far more expensive, and may have less effective IBIS.

Agreed, and by the time that body comes along EVF advancements may remove most concerns.

No one cares about pixel density. It was a way of selling cheap sensors 18 years ago.

Canon have the 90D for anyone truly wanting an APS-C DSLR at this point.

The 7D II is only 7 years old, the 90D was released only 2 years ago. There will be no more new DSLR bodies at all, and 7D II users are looking for a true upgrade to that body. The 90D isn't quite it, so a mirrorless version would have great appeal to those users.

I am one of those users. The R6 is a lovely camera but just does not have the pixels on subject that I am used to. By that measure alone it is a downgrade, add in the ergonomics and the battery life and the average 7D2 user is left a little wanting. The R5 when cropped is only 17mp compared to the 20.2 of the 7D2 so again, users may be a little disappointed when you add in battery life etc. I have actually heard more than a few users of the R5 out in the field saying just that. Having tried the R5 extensively myself it is a stunning camera, but the EVF does have limitations and especially when tracking a fast moving bird from a light background to a dark background it struggles. Amazingly it still keeps A lock as long ad you can guess where the bird is and keep it in the VF. It was also quite funny when I was in a hide one day and as all the action was happening in perfect light with some very hard to catch birds that not one, but three R5 users had their batteries die mid action. I just carried on the whole day with my 7D2 but there was quite a bit of swearing from R5 owners. Sure, they could have all added battery grips but that totally negates the point of having a "lighter" mirrorless system, especially as even then the battery life is still half that of a 7D2 with one battery.

Personally, I am willing to handle the battery limitations. I can deal with that. I hope that EVF performance improves as time goes on, it certainly has with the R3 which I was lucky enough to have a play with recently. What I am not willing to do is spend thousands on a camera and get less pixels on subject. For me that just makes no sense. Nor am I willing to have to compensate by lugging around a bigger lens, also at huge cost. I tend to be very mobile as a photographer, not one to turn up at a spot and sit there all day camera on tripod. I shoot handheld often walking miles. Carrying the extra load would take away not only the versatility, but a lot of the fun. I don't want to end up going home with arms like lead, severe back ache and a migraine. I get everything I need from 400mm on a crop body which is why my FF camera gathers dust on a shelf.

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Klaus dk
Klaus dk Veteran Member • Posts: 8,780
Re: R6

Distinctly Average wrote:

Klaus dk wrote:

Dave wrote:
[…]

I accept that APS-C was created to meet price/profitability targets. What then explains the creation of the very capable 7D using the format? Surely other alternatives existed when the decision was made.

The decision was probably made somewhere in the beginning of 2008, when an 18Mp pro grade APS-C was a real show of development and manufacturing force with great marketing potential. Those who couldn't afford a 5D II or a 1Dsomething could have everything but the FF sensor, and the birders even got the crop factor reach advantage with plenty of pixels on subject. In those days, 18Mp was huge.

Since then, manufacturers have cleverly marketed FF as the only acceptable sensor size for pros and enthusiasts, so it's no wonder that Canon is now relegating APS-C to the consumer level M series. I doubt there's a big enough market for APS-C DSLRs.

[…]

I’m not so sure. For a given pixel density APS-C still comes in quite a bit cheaper. More sensors per wafer, less wafer wasted and more importantly, less memory and processing. The above is considering as 32mp aps-c vs 83mp full frame. It still makes a large difference in cost. If M got dropped then that would allow a single line also reducing manufacturer costs.

As for market, the 90D and 77D still sell very well according to my local dealer. So do crop Fuji and Sony models with both having some decent current models and predicted to do more.
Whether we do see crop has yet to be seen, but a recent interview with a Canon exec strongly hinted at one.

It is certainly an interesting as well as frustrating time. I am looking forward to watching it develop. We are still in the very early stages.

I was trying to answer Dave's question "What then explains the creation of the very capable 7D using the format?".

I'm not contesting that APS-C sensors are cheaper.

I just believe Canon's market segmentation is working and that the market is different today, than when the 7D was concieved.

As somebody else wrote, Canon only have so much production capacity, so why use it on lower profit products when they can't even fill the demand for higher profit products?

AFAIK, neither Sony nor Fuji make APS-C DSLRs, so they're competing with the Canon M-line, which Canon clearly sees as entry to mid level products There are no EF-M lenses to match a 7D level MILC.

The only thing constant in life is change, so we'll see.

 Klaus dk's gear list:Klaus dk's gear list
Sony RX100 II Canon EOS R Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 135mm F2.8 SF Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM +6 more
Distinctly Average Senior Member • Posts: 1,295
Re: R6
1

Klaus dk wrote:

Distinctly Average wrote:

Klaus dk wrote:

Dave wrote:
[…]

I accept that APS-C was created to meet price/profitability targets. What then explains the creation of the very capable 7D using the format? Surely other alternatives existed when the decision was made.

The decision was probably made somewhere in the beginning of 2008, when an 18Mp pro grade APS-C was a real show of development and manufacturing force with great marketing potential. Those who couldn't afford a 5D II or a 1Dsomething could have everything but the FF sensor, and the birders even got the crop factor reach advantage with plenty of pixels on subject. In those days, 18Mp was huge.

Since then, manufacturers have cleverly marketed FF as the only acceptable sensor size for pros and enthusiasts, so it's no wonder that Canon is now relegating APS-C to the consumer level M series. I doubt there's a big enough market for APS-C DSLRs.

[…]

I’m not so sure. For a given pixel density APS-C still comes in quite a bit cheaper. More sensors per wafer, less wafer wasted and more importantly, less memory and processing. The above is considering as 32mp aps-c vs 83mp full frame. It still makes a large difference in cost. If M got dropped then that would allow a single line also reducing manufacturer costs.

As for market, the 90D and 77D still sell very well according to my local dealer. So do crop Fuji and Sony models with both having some decent current models and predicted to do more.
Whether we do see crop has yet to be seen, but a recent interview with a Canon exec strongly hinted at one.

It is certainly an interesting as well as frustrating time. I am looking forward to watching it develop. We are still in the very early stages.

I was trying to answer Dave's question "What then explains the creation of the very capable 7D using the format?".

I'm not contesting that APS-C sensors are cheaper.

I just believe Canon's market segmentation is working and that the market is different today, than when the 7D was concieved.

As somebody else wrote, Canon only have so much production capacity, so why use it on lower profit products when they can't even fill the demand for higher profit products?

AFAIK, neither Sony nor Fuji make APS-C DSLRs, so they're competing with the Canon M-line, which Canon clearly sees as entry to mid level products There are no EF-M lenses to match a 7D level MILC.

The only thing constant in life is change, so we'll see.

Thing is, the bodies are there to sell accessories. I would bet that there is not a huge markup on bodies at all, but there is on lenses, batteries and more. A single body can sell multiple accessories and continue to do so over its life. The move to RF will drive sales and the more choice consumers have in bodies, the more lenses and batteries Canon will sell. So releasing an R5 body with a crop sensor would almost certainly not cost a huge amount to develop, but would drive sales.

A dealer once told me that Canon made more profit from selling three spare batteries to 1Dx owners than they made from selling the 1Dx, which I quite believe. Add a few lenses and other bits and you soon see where the money is made. It is different at the bottom end where cheap has to be cheap. It shows. The mid ground really is thriving and there is still money to be made there from enthusiasts who will probably grasp the RF system with both hands. Here in the UK there are plenty of retired blokes with lots of spare cash waiting the buy, but they are also of an age where lugging around a 600mm will fill them full of dread. The M system for them is a no go as there are simply not the accessories to go with it, plus many still have that must by the BMW/Merc mentality and see M as a poor mans system.  So here at least, a lot of money is still being spend in that community and my understanding is that picture is painted around the world. Time will tell of course, but I am enjoying seeing it develop and all the discussions around it.

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Dave
Dave Veteran Member • Posts: 6,032
Re: R6
1

Distinctly Average wrote:

Klaus dk wrote:

Distinctly Average wrote:

Klaus dk wrote:

Dave wrote:
[…]

I accept that APS-C was created to meet price/profitability targets. What then explains the creation of the very capable 7D using the format? Surely other alternatives existed when the decision was made.

The decision was probably made somewhere in the beginning of 2008, when an 18Mp pro grade APS-C was a real show of development and manufacturing force with great marketing potential. Those who couldn't afford a 5D II or a 1Dsomething could have everything but the FF sensor, and the birders even got the crop factor reach advantage with plenty of pixels on subject. In those days, 18Mp was huge.

Since then, manufacturers have cleverly marketed FF as the only acceptable sensor size for pros and enthusiasts, so it's no wonder that Canon is now relegating APS-C to the consumer level M series. I doubt there's a big enough market for APS-C DSLRs.

[…]

I’m not so sure. For a given pixel density APS-C still comes in quite a bit cheaper. More sensors per wafer, less wafer wasted and more importantly, less memory and processing. The above is considering as 32mp aps-c vs 83mp full frame. It still makes a large difference in cost. If M got dropped then that would allow a single line also reducing manufacturer costs.

As for market, the 90D and 77D still sell very well according to my local dealer. So do crop Fuji and Sony models with both having some decent current models and predicted to do more.
Whether we do see crop has yet to be seen, but a recent interview with a Canon exec strongly hinted at one.

It is certainly an interesting as well as frustrating time. I am looking forward to watching it develop. We are still in the very early stages.

I was trying to answer Dave's question "What then explains the creation of the very capable 7D using the format?".

I'm not contesting that APS-C sensors are cheaper.

I just believe Canon's market segmentation is working and that the market is different today, than when the 7D was conceived.

As somebody else wrote, Canon only have so much production capacity, so why use it on lower profit products when they can't even fill the demand for higher profit products?

AFAIK, neither Sony nor Fuji make APS-C DSLRs, so they're competing with the Canon M-line, which Canon clearly sees as entry to mid level products There are no EF-M lenses to match a 7D level MILC.

The only thing constant in life is change, so we'll see.

Thing is, the bodies are there to sell accessories. I would bet that there is not a huge markup on bodies at all, but there is on lenses, batteries and more. A single body can sell multiple accessories and continue to do so over its life. The move to RF will drive sales and the more choice consumers have in bodies, the more lenses and batteries Canon will sell. So releasing an R5 body with a crop sensor would almost certainly not cost a huge amount to develop, but would drive sales.

A dealer once told me that Canon made more profit from selling three spare batteries to 1Dx owners than they made from selling the 1Dx, which I quite believe. Add a few lenses and other bits and you soon see where the money is made. It is different at the bottom end where cheap has to be cheap. It shows. The mid ground really is thriving and there is still money to be made there from enthusiasts who will probably grasp the RF system with both hands. Here in the UK there are plenty of retired blokes with lots of spare cash waiting the buy, but they are also of an age where lugging around a 600mm will fill them full of dread. The M system for them is a no go as there are simply not the accessories to go with it, plus many still have that must by the BMW/Merc mentality and see M as a poor mans system. So here at least, a lot of money is still being spend in that community and my understanding is that picture is painted around the world. Time will tell of course, but I am enjoying seeing it develop and all the discussions around it.

The car analogy is always fun. I wonder how enthusiasts are reacting to Canon's f/11 RF 600mm and 800mm lenses. Not L and that narrow aperture.  But lightweight and apparently fast-focusing and sharp.  How would I like one of them on an R6 compared to, say, a 400mm f/5/6 on my 80D?  Something I may feel compelled to investigate.

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/lenses/ef/super-telephoto/rf600mm-f11-is-stm

 Dave's gear list:Dave's gear list
Canon EOS 80D Canon EF 135mm F2L USM Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6L IS USM +10 more
John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 25,484
Re: R6
2

IR1234 wrote:

Dave wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Chuck6345 wrote:

Still any reliable info on a possible Canon 7Diii before the 3rd millennium?

The 7D3 is out there - it's the R6.

APS-C is done. It's over.

Pixel density is not over, and there is probably a larger market for an ~32.5MP APS-C RF body than an ~83MP FF with ~32.5MP in crop mode, which would be far more expensive, and may have less effective IBIS.

Agreed, and by the time that body comes along EVF advancements may remove most concerns.

No one cares about pixel density.

Spoken as a true solipsist.

It was a way of selling cheap sensors 18 years ago.

Canon have the 90D for anyone truly wanting an APS-C DSLR at this point.

It does not have advanced AF features.

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Beware of correct answers to wrong questions.
John
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