Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

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SimpleUser
SimpleUser Regular Member • Posts: 200
Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

Presented in one of Tony Northrup's clips was "focal" breathing of the 200-600, where instead of getting the 600mm for instance, when closing the distance to the subject, it might revert to ~ 324mm, because the focal mechanism needs the space to make the focus (or so I understood from the explanation).

Does someone know what is the minimal extension tube that may prevent this from happening?

-Answers of those who tested this issue and solution are welcome.

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NK88
Sony A9 | Sony A7Riv || Sony FE 200-600 g OSS | Sony F2.8 70-200 GM OSS| Sony TCx2 | Sony TCx1.4 || LA-EA5 | Tokina 19-35 |
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ANSWER:
Tony Rogers Senior Member • Posts: 2,051
Re: Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

Adding a 10mm or 16mm extension tube does increase the magnification a bit. It won't let you get much closer but it does reduce the "breathing" effect a bit.

See this thread - https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1708038/0#15648724 - I started on the same subject. It has some details you might find useful.

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QuietOC
QuietOC Veteran Member • Posts: 5,313
Re: Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?
3

The 200-600 doesn't breathe. Tony misuses that term. Adding tubes will reduce the angle of view which is breathing.

If you want to maintain focal length the focus on the lens has to be kept set at infinity. Minimum extension would vary for whatever closer focus distance you wanted. Zero extension is required for infinity focus.

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SimpleUser
OP SimpleUser Regular Member • Posts: 200
Re: Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

Tony Rogers wrote:

Adding a 10mm or 16mm extension tube does increase the magnification a bit. It won't let you get much closer but it does reduce the "breathing" effect a bit.

See this thread - https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1708038/0#15648724 - I started on the same subject. It has some details you might find useful.

The Breathing subject - discussed and demonstrated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDXsG9FhKCo

It still doesn't really answer how to combat the breathing with the 200-600, because rarely, I get the chance to photograph wildlife within the 10 meter distance, without being able to take advantage of the tele to its extreme.

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NK88
Sony A9 | Sony A7Riv || Sony FE 200-600 g OSS | Sony F2.8 70-200 GM OSS| Sony TCx2 | Sony TCx1.4 || LA-EA5 | Tokina 19-35 |
|Minolta AF f8 500mm mirror|

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RGBCMYK
RGBCMYK Senior Member • Posts: 2,394
Re: Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

Interesting video and thanks for sharing.  What most don't know or remember is when lenses are focused 8x their focal length or closer there is natural fall off (with the view camera we called it bellows compensation) and older macro lenses literally had it printed on the lens so manual calculations could be made.  With 1:1 magnification with any lens there is a 2 stop fall off so compensation is needed or it will be UE.  With in camera metering this isn't even noticed but with a manual setting from a hand held meter it becomes obvious.  Older medium format cameras where there is a bellows for focusing (Mamya RB67 for example had a scale on the bellows to calculate the required compensation for the extension ).  Interesting note is most older lenses were not allowed to focus closer than 8x their focal length I am sure to prevent customer complaints and their optical formulas were optimized for infinity vs close up.  All lenses work with extension tubes so it isn't like they don't work close up but exposure compensation for the fall of is needed.  So my guess is that if you use an extension tube on the 200-600 it will allow the closer focusing at the true focal length where I bet the lens makers solution to decrease the focal length to enable the close focus isn't needed.  Manual extension tubes are inexpensive and you could get a set of 3 and give it a test before purchasing the more expensive ones that pass the info through.

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moficera Contributing Member • Posts: 671
Re: Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

SimpleUser wrote:

Tony Rogers wrote:

Adding a 10mm or 16mm extension tube does increase the magnification a bit. It won't let you get much closer but it does reduce the "breathing" effect a bit.

See this thread - https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1708038/0#15648724 - I started on the same subject. It has some details you might find useful.

The Breathing subject - discussed and demonstrated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDXsG9FhKCo

It still doesn't really answer how to combat the breathing with the 200-600, because rarely, I get the chance to photograph wildlife within the 10 meter distance, without being able to take advantage of the tele to its extreme.

I was curious how much focal length/magnifications changes when you focus closely with the 200-600 G. My results are: you loose minimal magnification, about 96 % at MFD compared to infinity.

My testing: picking some fairly bright stars at 600 mm and focus to infinity. Next focus at MFD and stop down the lens to still have an idea where the stars are. Align both images and measure the offset of the stars.

Infinity vs. MFD, center of the stars  at MFD roughly marked, at f/32 you don't see them that good

for comparison infinity vs 10 m mark (displayed distance), you can see some offset but not much

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moficera Contributing Member • Posts: 671
Re: Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?
3

SimpleUser wrote:

Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

Presented in one of Tony Northrup's clips was "focal" breathing of the 200-600, where instead of getting the 600mm for instance, when closing the distance to the subject, it might revert to ~ 324mm, because the focal mechanism needs the space to make the focus (or so I understood from the explanation).

OMG I just watched the part of the video and this is why you should not watch these videos. They seem to have no idea what they talk about. They prove nothing. Sure with extension tubes you get more magnification, but zooming out with extension tubes until the framing matches the frame with no extension tubes shows the focal length at close focus? Who said the extension tubes Tony used are needed to get true 600 mm at MFD. This is total FUD. Don't listen to them.

 moficera's gear list:moficera's gear list
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Tristimulus Veteran Member • Posts: 8,521
Re: Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

moficera wrote:

SimpleUser wrote:

Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

Presented in one of Tony Northrup's clips was "focal" breathing of the 200-600, where instead of getting the 600mm for instance, when closing the distance to the subject, it might revert to ~ 324mm, because the focal mechanism needs the space to make the focus (or so I understood from the explanation).

OMG I just watched the part of the video and this is why you should not watch these videos. They seem to have no idea what they talk about. They prove nothing. Sure with extension tubes you get more magnification, but zooming out with extension tubes until the framing matches the frame with no extension tubes shows the focal length at close focus? Who said the extension tubes Tony used are needed to get true 600 mm at MFD. This is total FUD. Don't listen to them.

+1

Why should a lens perform better with extension tubes, which it was not designed for, and worse without? That does not make sense at all.

Use extension tubes to get closer focusing if that is the only option. Would also expect somewhat degraded image quality when using the lens outside what it is designed for.

What matter at close focus is reproduction scale, not focal lenght per se.

RGBCMYK
RGBCMYK Senior Member • Posts: 2,394
Re: Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

moficera wrote:

SimpleUser wrote:

Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

Presented in one of Tony Northrup's clips was "focal" breathing of the 200-600, where instead of getting the 600mm for instance, when closing the distance to the subject, it might revert to ~ 324mm, because the focal mechanism needs the space to make the focus (or so I understood from the explanation).

OMG I just watched the part of the video and this is why you should not watch these videos. They seem to have no idea what they talk about. They prove nothing. Sure with extension tubes you get more magnification, but zooming out with extension tubes until the framing matches the frame with no extension tubes shows the focal length at close focus? Who said the extension tubes Tony used are needed to get true 600 mm at MFD. This is total FUD. Don't listen to them.

unfortunately because there is very little vetting of the information online a large percentage of what has tons of thumbs ups and likes is actually incorrect information or only partially correct.  As an educator teaching photography I find this a major hurdle for anyone trying to learn online.  The word "influencer" makes my stomach churn because it should have a "warning" stating that what you are about to watch could or could not be truthful.

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AlephNull Veteran Member • Posts: 3,127
Re: Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

RGBCMYK wrote:

moficera wrote:

SimpleUser wrote:

Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

Presented in one of Tony Northrup's clips was "focal" breathing of the 200-600, where instead of getting the 600mm for instance, when closing the distance to the subject, it might revert to ~ 324mm, because the focal mechanism needs the space to make the focus (or so I understood from the explanation).

OMG I just watched the part of the video and this is why you should not watch these videos. They seem to have no idea what they talk about. They prove nothing. Sure with extension tubes you get more magnification, but zooming out with extension tubes until the framing matches the frame with no extension tubes shows the focal length at close focus? Who said the extension tubes Tony used are needed to get true 600 mm at MFD. This is total FUD. Don't listen to them.

unfortunately because there is very little vetting of the information online a large percentage of what has tons of thumbs ups and likes is actually incorrect information or only partially correct. As an educator teaching photography I find this a major hurdle for anyone trying to learn online. The word "influencer" makes my stomach churn because it should have a "warning" stating that what you are about to watch could or could not be truthful.

Doesn’t the term “influencer” already scream that warning?

The ones with knowledge and expertise aren’t called “influencers” “experts” or “professionals”, those are the people to look for. And no, the Northrups don’t qualify.

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moficera Contributing Member • Posts: 671
Re: Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

AlephNull wrote:

RGBCMYK wrote:

moficera wrote:

SimpleUser wrote:

Sony 200-600: What is the minimal extension tube to prevent focal breathing?

Presented in one of Tony Northrup's clips was "focal" breathing of the 200-600, where instead of getting the 600mm for instance, when closing the distance to the subject, it might revert to ~ 324mm, because the focal mechanism needs the space to make the focus (or so I understood from the explanation).

OMG I just watched the part of the video and this is why you should not watch these videos. They seem to have no idea what they talk about. They prove nothing. Sure with extension tubes you get more magnification, but zooming out with extension tubes until the framing matches the frame with no extension tubes shows the focal length at close focus? Who said the extension tubes Tony used are needed to get true 600 mm at MFD. This is total FUD. Don't listen to them.

unfortunately because there is very little vetting of the information online a large percentage of what has tons of thumbs ups and likes is actually incorrect information or only partially correct. As an educator teaching photography I find this a major hurdle for anyone trying to learn online. The word "influencer" makes my stomach churn because it should have a "warning" stating that what you are about to watch could or could not be truthful.

Doesn’t the term “influencer” already scream that warning?

The ones with knowledge and expertise aren’t called “influencers” “experts” or “professionals”, those are the people to look for. And no, the Northrups don’t qualify.

Since they don't shoot Sony anymore I guess they have to promote Canon more. In their view you also need the a1 to pair with the 200-600 for wildlife, the a9 has not enough resolution and a laggy EVF...

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