G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

Started 4 months ago | Questions
Sundre
OP Sundre Contributing Member • Posts: 743
Re: 2 stops.

Sure. The DPR test scene shots I linked pretty much tell the story, but renting and trying it out tells you a lot more about the camera in terms of operation, which may well be more important to you than IQ.

I recommend renting the camera with an 85 / 1.8S prime, a wider f/1.8S prime of your choice, and a 24-70 / 4S.

The 24-70 / 4S will give effectively you a stop over the 12-35 / 2.8 on mFT (e.g., f/4 ISO 12800 should perform as well as f/2.8 ISO 6400 on mFT). However, I don't know if they have a 70-200 / 4S out yet (I think just the f/2.8S, which is big and expensive).

Indeed there isn't a 70-200/f4 yet... Although I think the 70-210 f/4 works with the FTZ adapter.

I don't shoot concerts, but here's a photo I took at 1/50 ISO 6400:

So it looks like you're shooting in light a stop darker than even that!

Might be similar... The light is constantly shifting at these events.

Try ISO 25600 and and "deep prime" in DxO's PhotoLab 4. That might do the trick for you.

Thank you. I do use Photolab 4, and it can usually salvage a well-exposed G9 photo at ISO 12,800 - but there just isn't enough detail left at 25,600, even for DxO.

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Sundre
OP Sundre Contributing Member • Posts: 743
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

SonyX wrote:

Sundre wrote:

SonyX wrote:

I have A7III and G9. Day time photos - there are minor difference, but at night - it is noticeable. For a paid job - G9 is ok in some situations, but not with difficult lighting condition or fast action.

75/1.8 might be a good solution, but you will miss versatility of the zoom lens, when you are locked at the same shooting spot at the concert. Also, it is slow on G9.
So, you will need more lenses - 56/1.4, 42.5/1.2, 30/1.4 ... or FF+ f/2.8 zoom

Alex

Thank you. Is the 75/1.8 significantly slower on the G9 compared to Olympus cameras? Much slower than, say, the Sigma 56/1.4?

I don't have Olympus and can't compare to 56/1.4. It tend to hunt time to time even in perfect light. It can't follow the action as good as some native lenses and 40-150/2.8.
For me 35-100/2.8 - is also slow.

Search for used A7III, they should be around $1200 or less, buy tamron 70-180/2.8 or/and S85/1.8 - and you will be covered.
2 stops of ISO/SS difference, better DR and a bit more resolution/ability to crop.

Hmm. Ok, thanks for the input. Everyone seems to hate on Sony for making cameras that are uncomfortable to use, but it's probably one of those things you can only figure out by trying them out. I'll see if I can rent one...

As for prices, unfortunately I live in Europe and used A7 IIIs seem to go for 1,700 €, which is 2,000 USD. That is almost twice as much as the Z6 I was offered.

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pannumon Veteran Member • Posts: 3,704
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light
1

Sundre wrote:

SonyX wrote:

I have A7III and G9. Day time photos - there are minor difference, but at night - it is noticeable. For a paid job - G9 is ok in some situations, but not with difficult lighting condition or fast action.

75/1.8 might be a good solution, but you will miss versatility of the zoom lens, when you are locked at the same shooting spot at the concert. Also, it is slow on G9.
So, you will need more lenses - 56/1.4, 42.5/1.2, 30/1.4 ... or FF+ f/2.8 zoom

Alex

Thank you. Is the 75/1.8 significantly slower on the G9 compared to Olympus cameras? Much slower than, say, the Sigma 56/1.4?

I would also like to hear more about this. Otherwise I assume it is like other Olympus lenses, meaning it focuses as fast or faster on Panasonics than on Olympus bodies. AFC is probably faster and better on Olympus cameras with on-sensor PDAF, though.

Panasonic DfD AF officially only works with Panasonic lenses. Some people argue that DfD also works with Olympus (and other native µ4/3) lenses, but it's difficult to measure. The conclusion is that there is no day and night difference between Panasonic and Olympus lens AF on Panasonic bodies, but of course 75mm f/1.8 could be an exception.

Edit.: SonyX already replied.

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Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 45,431
Re: 2 stops.
1

Sundre wrote:

Sure. The DPR test scene shots I linked pretty much tell the story, but renting and trying it out tells you a lot more about the camera in terms of operation, which may well be more important to you than IQ.

I recommend renting the camera with an 85 / 1.8S prime, a wider f/1.8S prime of your choice, and a 24-70 / 4S.

The 24-70 / 4S will give effectively you a stop over the 12-35 / 2.8 on mFT (e.g., f/4 ISO 12800 should perform as well as f/2.8 ISO 6400 on mFT). However, I don't know if they have a 70-200 / 4S out yet (I think just the f/2.8S, which is big and expensive).

Indeed there isn't a 70-200/f4 yet... Although I think the 70-210 f/4 works with the FTZ adapter.

I don't shoot concerts, but here's a photo I took at 1/50 ISO 6400:

So it looks like you're shooting in light a stop darker than even that!

Might be similar... The light is constantly shifting at these events.

In that case, you'll probably want to be using Auto ISO.  That makes renting all the more an issue 'cause you'll want to know how well the Z6 meters with Auto ISO.

Try ISO 25600 and "deep prime" in DxO's PhotoLab 4. That might do the trick for you.

Thank you. I do use Photolab 4, and it can usually salvage a well-exposed G9 photo at ISO 12,800 - but there just isn't enough detail left at 25,600, even for DxO.

Ah -- well, rent a Z6 (and/or Z6.2 to see if the new version is "enough better" to justify the higher price).

pannumon Veteran Member • Posts: 3,704
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

SonyX wrote:

Sundre wrote:

SonyX wrote:

I have A7III and G9. Day time photos - there are minor difference, but at night - it is noticeable. For a paid job - G9 is ok in some situations, but not with difficult lighting condition or fast action.

75/1.8 might be a good solution, but you will miss versatility of the zoom lens, when you are locked at the same shooting spot at the concert. Also, it is slow on G9.
So, you will need more lenses - 56/1.4, 42.5/1.2, 30/1.4 ... or FF+ f/2.8 zoom

Alex

Thank you. Is the 75/1.8 significantly slower on the G9 compared to Olympus cameras? Much slower than, say, the Sigma 56/1.4?

I don't have Olympus and can't compare to 56/1.4. It tend to hunt time to time even in perfect light. It can't follow the action as good as some native lenses and 40-150/2.8.
For me 35-100/2.8 - is also slow.

At some point Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 was reported to be the fastest focusing lens on Panasonics. It's good that you mention Panasonic 35-100mm f/2.8. I do believe that the AF on that lens is slow for you, because it can still be considered very fast for others.

Of course, there is a night and day difference between AFC and AFS.

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Sundre
OP Sundre Contributing Member • Posts: 743
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light
1

pannumon wrote:

SonyX wrote:

Sundre wrote:

SonyX wrote:

I have A7III and G9. Day time photos - there are minor difference, but at night - it is noticeable. For a paid job - G9 is ok in some situations, but not with difficult lighting condition or fast action.

75/1.8 might be a good solution, but you will miss versatility of the zoom lens, when you are locked at the same shooting spot at the concert. Also, it is slow on G9.
So, you will need more lenses - 56/1.4, 42.5/1.2, 30/1.4 ... or FF+ f/2.8 zoom

Alex

Thank you. Is the 75/1.8 significantly slower on the G9 compared to Olympus cameras? Much slower than, say, the Sigma 56/1.4?

I don't have Olympus and can't compare to 56/1.4. It tend to hunt time to time even in perfect light. It can't follow the action as good as some native lenses and 40-150/2.8.
For me 35-100/2.8 - is also slow.

At some point Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 was reported to be the fastest focusing lens on Panasonics. It's good that you mention Panasonic 35-100mm f/2.8. I do believe that the AF on that lens is slow for you, because it can still be considered very fast for others.

Of course, there is a night and day difference between AFC and AFS.

At the end of the day, the only way I can figure out what works for me is trying out the equipment I am interested in. Renting, in other words... So I will do that

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rich_cx139 Senior Member • Posts: 2,483
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

2 stops

One metric is DXoMarks' sports iso rating

Z6 = 3299

GH5=807 ( I believe the G9 has basically the same sensor as that in the GH5)

so that is a factor of 4 i.e. 2 stops - like most recent m43 sensors.

The exception is the Oly PDAF 20 mpx sensor in the em1.2 etc. which seem to be around 1300 - aps-c level ).

These are 1.3 stops below the Z6.

These are the numbers but I use Nikon 1 ( 1 inch ), m43, aps-c and a Z6 and I just set everything to auto iso and just see what I can get away with in terms of shutter, ibis for static subjects and so on . AI noise reduction in DXO PL4 or Topaz helps a lot.

Can you get a faster lens ? - either a native prime or an adapted one ? Like the cheapish 45/1.8 or the nor so cheap but brilliant 75/1.8 - thats before going the the 1.2 pro glass or the Pan equivalents.

Even going from 2.8 to 1.8 glass recovers 1.3 stops.

SonyX
SonyX Contributing Member • Posts: 934
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light
2

Sundre wrote:

SonyX wrote:

Sundre wrote:

SonyX wrote:

I have A7III and G9. Day time photos - there are minor difference, but at night - it is noticeable. For a paid job - G9 is ok in some situations, but not with difficult lighting condition or fast action.

75/1.8 might be a good solution, but you will miss versatility of the zoom lens, when you are locked at the same shooting spot at the concert. Also, it is slow on G9.
So, you will need more lenses - 56/1.4, 42.5/1.2, 30/1.4 ... or FF+ f/2.8 zoom

Alex

Thank you. Is the 75/1.8 significantly slower on the G9 compared to Olympus cameras? Much slower than, say, the Sigma 56/1.4?

I don't have Olympus and can't compare to 56/1.4. It tend to hunt time to time even in perfect light. It can't follow the action as good as some native lenses and 40-150/2.8.
For me 35-100/2.8 - is also slow.

Search for used A7III, they should be around $1200 or less, buy tamron 70-180/2.8 or/and S85/1.8 - and you will be covered.
2 stops of ISO/SS difference, better DR and a bit more resolution/ability to crop.

Hmm. Ok, thanks for the input. Everyone seems to hate on Sony for making cameras that are uncomfortable to use, but it's probably one of those things you can only figure out by trying them out. I'll see if I can rent one...

As for prices, unfortunately I live in Europe and used A7 IIIs seem to go for 1,700 €, which is 2,000 USD. That is almost twice as much as the Z6 I was offered.

I was and still one of them, I don't like A7III as a camera body, but I do like result it is giving and battery. With difficult light you can shoot all event at iso640 and push it 3-5 stops up later to save highlights from overexposure. G9 has metering mode with HL priority, but it is difficult to get more than 3-4 stops from ISO 100 with pinkish shadows
new A7III - 1500e, I've bought used 1/2 price
I'm not saying that G9 will not give you acceptable result, but FF cameras are better in this situation.

Malta, carnaval 2020

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Sundre
OP Sundre Contributing Member • Posts: 743
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

rich_cx139 wrote:

2 stops

One metric is DXoMarks' sports iso rating

Z6 = 3299

GH5=807 ( I believe the G9 has basically the same sensor as that in the GH5)

so that is a factor of 4 i.e. 2 stops - like most recent m43 sensors.

The exception is the Oly PDAF 20 mpx sensor in the em1.2 etc. which seem to be around 1300 - aps-c level ).

These are 1.3 stops below the Z6.

These are the numbers but I use Nikon 1 ( 1 inch ), m43, aps-c and a Z6 and I just set everything to auto iso and just see what I can get away with in terms of shutter, ibis for static subjects and so on . AI noise reduction in DXO PL4 or Topaz helps a lot.

Can you get a faster lens ? - either a native prime or an adapted one ? Like the cheapish 45/1.8 or the nor so cheap but brilliant 75/1.8 - thats before going the the 1.2 pro glass or the Pan equivalents.

Even going from 2.8 to 1.8 glass recovers 1.3 stops.

Trying out the 75/1.8 is what I will do.

I should note that I don't even have f/2.8 MFT glass yet, I've been mainly relying on my Panasonic 12-60/3.5-5.6 and 100-300 II/4.5-5.6... Which obviously massively limits low light performance.

I'm sort of trying to decide whether MFT can give me good enough low light performance, or whether I should upgrade to FF now before I have a significant investment in MFT glass.

I'm a beginner. I've only been shooting for a year and I only have three cheap Panasonic lenses so far.

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SonyX
SonyX Contributing Member • Posts: 934
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

rich_cx139 wrote:

Even going from 2.8 to 1.8 glass recovers 1.3 stops.

pls, let me repeat this image for you

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Brandon birder Veteran Member • Posts: 4,970
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light
1

Sundre wrote:

rich_cx139 wrote:

2 stops

One metric is DXoMarks' sports iso rating

Z6 = 3299

GH5=807 ( I believe the G9 has basically the same sensor as that in the GH5)

so that is a factor of 4 i.e. 2 stops - like most recent m43 sensors.

The exception is the Oly PDAF 20 mpx sensor in the em1.2 etc. which seem to be around 1300 - aps-c level ).

These are 1.3 stops below the Z6.

These are the numbers but I use Nikon 1 ( 1 inch ), m43, aps-c and a Z6 and I just set everything to auto iso and just see what I can get away with in terms of shutter, ibis for static subjects and so on . AI noise reduction in DXO PL4 or Topaz helps a lot.

Can you get a faster lens ? - either a native prime or an adapted one ? Like the cheapish 45/1.8 or the nor so cheap but brilliant 75/1.8 - thats before going the the 1.2 pro glass or the Pan equivalents.

Even going from 2.8 to 1.8 glass recovers 1.3 stops.

Trying out the 75/1.8 is what I will do.

I should note that I don't even have f/2.8 MFT glass yet, I've been mainly relying on my Panasonic 12-60/3.5-5.6 and 100-300 II/4.5-5.6... Which obviously massively limits low light performance.

I'm sort of trying to decide whether MFT can give me good enough low light performance, or whether I should upgrade to FF now before I have a significant investment in MFT glass.

I'm a beginner. I've only been shooting for a year and I only have three cheap Panasonic lenses so far.

Have you considered that some concerts won’t allow large long zooms as in the 70-200 f2.8 lens you are considering with a Z6?

The 75mm f1:8 lens can be got for half price used. I did so a couple of years ago. It’s also unobtrusive.

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Sundre
OP Sundre Contributing Member • Posts: 743
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

Brandon birder wrote:

Sundre wrote:

rich_cx139 wrote:

2 stops

One metric is DXoMarks' sports iso rating

Z6 = 3299

GH5=807 ( I believe the G9 has basically the same sensor as that in the GH5)

so that is a factor of 4 i.e. 2 stops - like most recent m43 sensors.

The exception is the Oly PDAF 20 mpx sensor in the em1.2 etc. which seem to be around 1300 - aps-c level ).

These are 1.3 stops below the Z6.

These are the numbers but I use Nikon 1 ( 1 inch ), m43, aps-c and a Z6 and I just set everything to auto iso and just see what I can get away with in terms of shutter, ibis for static subjects and so on . AI noise reduction in DXO PL4 or Topaz helps a lot.

Can you get a faster lens ? - either a native prime or an adapted one ? Like the cheapish 45/1.8 or the nor so cheap but brilliant 75/1.8 - thats before going the the 1.2 pro glass or the Pan equivalents.

Even going from 2.8 to 1.8 glass recovers 1.3 stops.

Trying out the 75/1.8 is what I will do.

I should note that I don't even have f/2.8 MFT glass yet, I've been mainly relying on my Panasonic 12-60/3.5-5.6 and 100-300 II/4.5-5.6... Which obviously massively limits low light performance.

I'm sort of trying to decide whether MFT can give me good enough low light performance, or whether I should upgrade to FF now before I have a significant investment in MFT glass.

I'm a beginner. I've only been shooting for a year and I only have three cheap Panasonic lenses so far.

Have you considered that some concerts won’t allow large long zooms as in the 70-200 f2.8 lens you are considering with a Z6?

The 75mm f1:8 lens can be got for half price used. I did so a couple of years ago. It’s also unobtrusive.

Good point. I'm completely new to this, I have absolutely no idea what rules there may or may not be. I do know that I like the size of MFT glass. It's really nice to be able to carry everything from ultra wide to long telezoom in a handy should bag.

I'm not doing this for a living, or even getting paid - I just share my photos with venues in exchange for free access.

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Interceptor121 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,331
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

What is that we are looking at?

The noise on the image on the left is more coarse the one on the right is finer and will work better with noise reduction software loosing less resolution

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glassoholic
glassoholic Veteran Member • Posts: 6,321
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

Sundre wrote:

I spent some time googling this + reading forum threads. It all got a bit too technical for me. Would anyone be able to give a simple, non-technical answer to this question:

If I shoot the same low-light event (concert etc.) with these two combos, how many stops do I gain with the Z6? Image stabilisation does not matter much since the subjects are moving.

Combo #1: Panasonic G9 + PL 35-100/2.8

Combo #2: Nikon Z6 + Nikon 70-200/2.8

I would love a really simple answer, something like "1/50s with #1 will look more or less like 1/125s with #2". I don't need a technically perfect answer, just a rough ballpark figure.

Unless I have misunderstood something, the two components involved in making the Z6 the better combo for low light is the sensor and the lens. I don't really understand the technical aspects of that, and I would prefer not to have to understand them either.

The reason I'm asking is, I've been offered a used Z6 for 1,000 €, but I'm not sure I want to spend that much. I realise it's a good price for a Z6 mark I in good condition, but I'm not rich. Getting some decent glass for it would be so expensive...

If I can get "good enough" results with something like the PL 35-100/2.8 or the Olympus 75/1.8 with my G9, I'm not sure I want to spend that much at this time.

Thank you

You appear to own the 75 1.8... that's a great start for concerts... obviously a tele could be both a good and a bad thing depending on where you are shooting from and what composition you want.

F2.8 and concerts is pushing things with m43, but doable if you process RAW with DXO Photolab 4 Elite (Elite includes the Prime noise reduction). Shoot something indoors at home at night at 6400 and 12800 ISO and download a trial of DXO PL4 Elite and see for yourself what you think of what you will likely be getting from f2.8.

F1.4/ 8 will mean about ISO 1600 and 3200 exposures.

You could add a very affordable Panasonic 25mm f1.7 and an affordable Sigma 16mm f1.4 to your 75mm f1.8 and be pretty well set up... albeit by having to change primes.

A FF body might be attractively priced until you start to add f2.8 zooms.

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rich_cx139 Senior Member • Posts: 2,483
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

Sundre wrote:

rich_cx139 wrote:

2 stops

One metric is DXoMarks' sports iso rating

Z6 = 3299

GH5=807 ( I believe the G9 has basically the same sensor as that in the GH5)

so that is a factor of 4 i.e. 2 stops - like most recent m43 sensors.

The exception is the Oly PDAF 20 mpx sensor in the em1.2 etc. which seem to be around 1300 - aps-c level ).

These are 1.3 stops below the Z6.

These are the numbers but I use Nikon 1 ( 1 inch ), m43, aps-c and a Z6 and I just set everything to auto iso and just see what I can get away with in terms of shutter, ibis for static subjects and so on . AI noise reduction in DXO PL4 or Topaz helps a lot.

Can you get a faster lens ? - either a native prime or an adapted one ? Like the cheapish 45/1.8 or the nor so cheap but brilliant 75/1.8 - thats before going the the 1.2 pro glass or the Pan equivalents.

Even going from 2.8 to 1.8 glass recovers 1.3 stops.

Trying out the 75/1.8 is what I will do.

I should note that I don't even have f/2.8 MFT glass yet, I've been mainly relying on my Panasonic 12-60/3.5-5.6 and 100-300 II/4.5-5.6... Which obviously massively limits low light performance.

I'm sort of trying to decide whether MFT can give me good enough low light performance, or whether I should upgrade to FF now before I have a significant investment in MFT glass.

I'm a beginner. I've only been shooting for a year and I only have three cheap Panasonic lenses so far.

As Brandon birder noted above - you can get the 75/1.8 at a very good price used ( and I recommend the cheap primes also pan or oly ).

Some money spent on those lenses will make a great difference to your photography.  That said I still have the pan 14-45 and 45-150 kit lens I got with my G5 years ago and they are really good for their aperture.  I did add an oly 12-40/2.8 pro a few years ago which I use on my ancient om-d e-m5 ( mark 1 ).

Although I do have a Z6 and use it quite a bit,  it is my Nikon 1 and m43 stuff I pick up most of the time and usually have one or the other on me or in the car

SonyX
SonyX Contributing Member • Posts: 934
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

Interceptor121 wrote:

What is that we are looking at?

The noise on the image on the left is more coarse the one on the right is finer and will work better with noise reduction software loosing less resolution

1/10 ev or 1 ev more?

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Interceptor121 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,331
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

SonyX wrote:

Interceptor121 wrote:

What is that we are looking at?

The noise on the image on the left is more coarse the one on the right is finer and will work better with noise reduction software loosing less resolution

1/10 ev or 1 ev more?

Those things are not easy to measure by the eye. I was just saying that the two images were not the same if that was the intent

I have never had the need to shoot at ISO 10000 because with the right lenses you don't need to in most cases on any format. This sometimes means primes

So is there an answer to a nice 70-200mm 2.8 full frame lens on MFT? No there is not I can tell you by direct experience

However 2.8 lens is not the answer for good images in some cases on any format which is what can drive you to the 10000s

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Sundre
OP Sundre Contributing Member • Posts: 743
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

glassoholic wrote:

You appear to own the 75 1.8... that's a great start for concerts... obviously a tele could be both a good and a bad thing depending on where you are shooting from and what composition you want.

F2.8 and concerts is pushing things with m43, but doable if you process RAW with DXO Photolab 4 Elite (Elite includes the Prime noise reduction). Shoot something indoors at home at night at 6400 and 12800 ISO and download a trial of DXO PL4 Elite and see for yourself what you think of what you will likely be getting from f2.8.

F1.4/ 8 will mean about ISO 1600 and 3200 exposures.

You could add a very affordable Panasonic 25mm f1.7 and an affordable Sigma 16mm f1.4 to your 75mm f1.8 and be pretty well set up... albeit by having to change primes.

A FF body might be attractively priced until you start to add f2.8 zooms.

Sorry, I was a bit unclear. No, I do not own the 75/1.8. I also do not own any f2.8 zooms.

It would cost me around 2,000 € to buy the Z6 and a compatible 70-200/2.8 zoom lens (probably the Tamron, which is supposed to work well with the Z6 + FTZ adapter). I don't think I will ever be able to afford 2,000+ € lenses like the Nikon Z 70-200/2.8, but the Tamron can be found for 700-800 €.

I'll figure this out the easy way, and rent all the equipment I'm interested in. It'll cost a bit but it's doubtlessly the best way to figure out what works for me.

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SonyX
SonyX Contributing Member • Posts: 934
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light

Interceptor121 wrote:

SonyX wrote:

Interceptor121 wrote:

What is that we are looking at?

The noise on the image on the left is more coarse the one on the right is finer and will work better with noise reduction software loosing less resolution

1/10 ev or 1 ev more?

Those things are not easy to measure by the eye. I was just saying that the two images were not the same if that was the intent

I have never had the need to shoot at ISO 10000 because with the right lenses you don't need to in most cases on any format. This sometimes means primes

So is there an answer to a nice 70-200mm 2.8 full frame lens on MFT? No there is not I can tell you by direct experience

However 2.8 lens is not the answer for good images in some cases on any format which is what can drive you to the 10000s

I've got iso 3200 with the brightest AF MFT lens at the same lighting condition, I don't see where this is better than f/2.8 zoom on FF?

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rich_cx139 Senior Member • Posts: 2,483
Re: G9 vs. Z6 @ 2.8 in low light
1

SonyX wrote:

rich_cx139 wrote:

Even going from 2.8 to 1.8 glass recovers 1.3 stops.

pls, let me repeat this image for you

Hello Alex

Maybe I wasn't clear - I meant 2.8 to 1.8 on the same sensor recovers 1.3 stops. Apologies.

BTW I see that the T values of these 1.2 m43 lenses seem to be about 1.7-1.8 ( about 1 stop lower ) so you get the DoF advantage but not necessarily that much over the 1.8's in terms of light e.g. the 75/1.8 has a T of 2.0 ( only 1/3 stop lower ) ( all according to DXOMark ). Never understood this.

Re one of your earlier posts - I agree that the FF sensors are obviously better in low light i.e. for moving subjects where you can't use ibis or a tripod.

The problem I usually have ( as an infrequent shooter of people inside ) is not so much noise but getting the depth of field I want for group shots eg around a table ( and without using flash or telling them to hold still and say "cheese" - not a good spontaneous look). On a FF, I am often stopping down to f5.6, say - which, typically gives you the same DoF ( for equivalent FLs / field of view ) as m43 at f2.8. Sometimes you just can't win.

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