EOS R6 - AF not on target on few pictures

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Chris_From_Holland wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Chris_From_Holland wrote:

Thank you for your extended answer and tests.

Knowing this, I'll switch to spot AF next time, and will give a try to your buttons assignment.

Understanding the behaviour is half way managing it. So I know what to try.

Not to mention that the R6 AF is, and stay, a total killer when it comes to precision. The missed are very rare (and I'm kinda torturing it)

A few more things might help.

Set the Magnification to button on reviewing the image on the camera to Actual Size from Selected Point (Menu - Playback (blue) - Tab 4 - Magnification - Actual Size (from selected pt)). If you review a shot on the back of the camera and hit the magnifying glass button, this will zoom in the maximum amount to the center of the focus area. This will let you see if you are locking on focus well quickly.

I like to have my AF points displayed on playback so I can see them in the camera (Menu - Playback (blue) - Tab 5 AF point display. This will let you see where the AF point is on the back display. It would not help in this specific case but it might in others.

Whatever software you are using to covert raw is bad. The noise I'm seeing is horrible for ISO 8,000 on an R6 or R5. What did you use? I would highly recommend downloading a free trial of DxO PureRaw or DxO PL4 and using DeepPrime. You should see a huge difference. The difference is minor at low ISO but it is worth 2 to 3 stops better as the ISO goes above about 3,000. If you want, you can send me the RAW file via private message and I will convert it for you to show the difference.

This was an unprocessed RAW. When I saw that the drummer wasn't sharp I didn't spend any more time to even try develop the RAW. So the noise makes sense.

Out of curiosity, I'll sent you the link with the raw

I will setup the magnification on review as displaying the point,. It will surely help (at least to re-shoot immediately).

Next concert is planned over 2 weeks, so I'll to wait a bit to confirm all that

Below I have imported the CR3 file in DPP4, Adobe Camera RAW, and DxO with DeepPrime leaving all the settings at their default. These are 100% crops showing about the same area as your prior crop. So this should just be a noise comparison.

DPP4

Adobe RAW with Defaults

DxO DeepPrime with default

On the image below, I used DxO Deep prime, plus I did a white balance pick on the cymbal stand, used a feature of DxO called Smart Lighting, and a little curves adjustment.

DxO DeepPrime with Smart Lighting, Color Temp Correction, and curve adjustment

I'm stunned.

I'll give a try with the trial version. It does bring a visible improvement.

Thanks!

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Chris_From_Holland wrote:

I'm stunned.

I'll give a try with the trial version. It does bring a visible improvement.

Thanks!

DxO completely changed the way I shoot now and why I (and many others) highly recommend it. My default mode is Manual with Auto-ISO. I know any ISO up through 12,800 will look very good on the R5. In a pinch, I wouldn't mind going to 25,600 or even 51,200, and it should be better for you with the R6. In this way, I can control the depth of focus with aperture and the shutter speed based on subject motion and let the camera pick the ISO. Previously, it was a bad compromise to shoot aperture with as much ISO as I could tolerate, and I hope there was not too much subject motion blur.

Also, I have tried playing with the knobs in Adobe RAW to reduce noise, and invariably you play a bad game of losing saturation and resolution to reduces noise. You can't get the detail back with sharpening. With DxO, it is just a few button clicks, and it comes out with lower noise and much better detail than Adobe RAW.

A couple more suggestions to get a better focus in though lighting:

1. The AF system on the R5/R6 is tied to the exposure you see in the viewfinder. In the case of the photos you gave, the subject was a bit dark. Your exposure setting, I think, was evaluative, and so whatever is bright in the scene is going to tend to drive the exposure. You might want to set the exposure to about +1 EV IF the subject is darker than other things in the scene. You have about 2 stops of headroom when you shoot raw, so this will give up one stop of headroom, but you can't recover bad focus (yes, there is software, but it is not a great option).
2. Shoot a burst of photos (say 3 to 5) in a high-speed mode. This will give the AF system more changes to lock on. You also give yourself a chance to get a better pose if the subject is working or a chance to make a montage of the sequence. I'm trying to train myself to shoot in bursts more, even with moderately still subjects.

I'm bit over busy till this weekend, so i'll not be able to test Dxo yet, but I'll spend some time on it as soon as I have time free this week (and probably end up buying it :p).

I shoot concert in full Manual mode :

- Aperture is set to control the DoF depending on the topic (often 2.8 though),

- Speed usually 1/250 (between 1/125 and 1/1000 dependng of the show)

- using the Exposure Simulation in the EVF,  I control the ISO to get the proper exposure on the subject I want properly lit (on that matter, Mirrorless has fundamentaly changed my concert photography).

(I spot using the automation as I kinda miss a Spot mesure attached to the AF point)

Your point 1 is a very valuable info i didn't know (I was suspecting it though, but i didn't see it as a core function), I'll factor it in next time and make sure I have this +1 when I need it).

I used to burst a lot and got overhelmed when loading the pics and I did work on reducing it. I guess I did push it too much the ohter way ;).
With this new knowledge, I'll use bursts when the lighting is on the dark side of things

Glad I ask the questions, very valuable info to handle my R6 (Which wll receive a twin soon to get the fullrange 24-200 avaialble at will)

RLight wrote:

Chris_From_Holland wrote:

R2D2 wrote:

Chris_From_Holland wrote:

R2D2 wrote:

Don’t need RAWs if you just post some screen shots from DPP (with AF points showing). Do include EXIF tho.

TIA, R2

One more photo:

Thanks for these. I've seen this phenomenon reported here before (here's one of the threads)...

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4551441

I think the AF algorithms try to paint a happy face on occasion (indicating AF lock when not actually in focus ). The cymbals just seem to be a much better AF target than the face (esp in lower light), even when the cymbals are not under the reported AF square.

There are still occasions esp in low light (IME) where Spot AF produces better accuracy. In fact, I suspect that you will get close to a 100% hit rate under these conditions (vs Face/Eye detect).

R2

ps. I've always suspected that the AF frame designation is actually done post-shot, and is not a real-time indicator of focus. Just a theory...

The thread is indeed this behavior.
I'm not surprised, I'm not shooting in the easiest condition either
I do switch between Spot AF & Tracking, but until now, I was seeing clear hesitation of the AF the the EVF. It's the first time I see this this specific case (and well, this photo was cool).

I love so much my R6, that I tend to forget that it may have limits Hence I'm still learning its limits

The RF 70-200 f/2.8 is known for front focusing at times. And I suspect there may be some aberration/ reflection from that cymbal throwing off the AF. It’s a machine, nothing’s perfect.

This is one area 1DX III shooters have reported better hit rate (reflections/glare vs the R5/6), and I expect the R3 resolves between enhanced algorithms and faster, more sensitive, readout. Sometimes it is the machine to blame.

Most of the focusing reticule is not on the subject so it grabbed the nearest thing with high contrast instead, the cymbal.

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Chris_From_Holland wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Chris_From_Holland wrote:

I'm stunned.

I'll give a try with the trial version. It does bring a visible improvement.

Thanks!

DxO completely changed the way I shoot now and why I (and many others) highly recommend it. My default mode is Manual with Auto-ISO. I know any ISO up through 12,800 will look very good on the R5. In a pinch, I wouldn't mind going to 25,600 or even 51,200, and it should be better for you with the R6. In this way, I can control the depth of focus with aperture and the shutter speed based on subject motion and let the camera pick the ISO. Previously, it was a bad compromise to shoot aperture with as much ISO as I could tolerate, and I hope there was not too much subject motion blur.

Also, I have tried playing with the knobs in Adobe RAW to reduce noise, and invariably you play a bad game of losing saturation and resolution to reduces noise. You can't get the detail back with sharpening. With DxO, it is just a few button clicks, and it comes out with lower noise and much better detail than Adobe RAW.

A couple more suggestions to get a better focus in though lighting:

1. The AF system on the R5/R6 is tied to the exposure you see in the viewfinder. In the case of the photos you gave, the subject was a bit dark. Your exposure setting, I think, was evaluative, and so whatever is bright in the scene is going to tend to drive the exposure. You might want to set the exposure to about +1 EV IF the subject is darker than other things in the scene. You have about 2 stops of headroom when you shoot raw, so this will give up one stop of headroom, but you can't recover bad focus (yes, there is software, but it is not a great option).
2. Shoot a burst of photos (say 3 to 5) in a high-speed mode. This will give the AF system more changes to lock on. You also give yourself a chance to get a better pose if the subject is working or a chance to make a montage of the sequence. I'm trying to train myself to shoot in bursts more, even with moderately still subjects.

I'm bit over busy till this weekend, so i'll not be able to test Dxo yet, but I'll spend some time on it as soon as I have time free this week (and probably end up buying it :p).

So long as you shoot RAW, you can fix things later (I'm able to go back to pictures I shot 15 years ago and fix them, which I only shot RAW back then).

I shoot concert in full Manual mode :

- Aperture is set to control the DoF depending on the topic (often 2.8 though),

- Speed usually 1/250 (between 1/125 and 1/1000 dependng of the show)

- using the Exposure Simulation in the EVF, I control the ISO to get the proper exposure on the subject I want properly lit (on that matter, Mirrorless has fundamentaly changed my concert photography).

Knowing I have DxO, except for still subjects, I shot M with auto-ISO. I will check to make sure the ISO is not going too high or clamping. Only in that case would decide on Aperture or Shutter Speed. I find ISO 12,8000 is perfectly fine thanks to DxO DeepPrime, but I could not stand to look at the pictures processed by Adobe Camera RAW.

(I spot using the automation as I kinda miss a Spot mesure attached to the AF point)

Your point 1 is a very valuable info i didn't know (I was suspecting it though, but i didn't see it as a core function), I'll factor it in next time and make sure I have this +1 when I need it).

It is a subtle problem but important problem. You can easily prove this by setting the exposure compensation to -3EV and seeing how the focusing has problems versus set to 0EV.

It you were shooting stills or performers' position, and lighting didn't change, you could exposure lock on the subject or lock everything down (aperture, shutter speed, and ISO). But with Mirrorless, it seems easiest, quickest, and safest just to bump the EV compensation if you have some bright things in the scene that are not the subject that is causing the subject to be too dark.

If you use flash (at least with a Canon flash), you may also notice that the viewfinder automatically goes out of exposure simulation based on the ambient. This is necessary so that focus will work if the flash is providing much of the light.

I used to burst a lot and got overhelmed when loading the pics and I did work on reducing it. I guess I did push it too much the ohter way ;).
With this new knowledge, I'll use bursts when the lighting is on the dark side of things

Glad I ask the questions, very valuable info to handle my R6 (Which wll receive a twin soon to get the fullrange 24-200 avaialble at will)

many, many thanks for your input.

I read that Dxo releases a new version of PL every year in October, I contacted them to confirm it, and i'll order whatever version is to be ordered soon:)

My brain is twisted whenever I hear about R6. My brain goes like Yamaha EOS R6 or Canon YZF R6? 🤔