Fv Mode Confusion

Started 3 months ago | Questions
Sinawang Forum Member • Posts: 67
Fv Mode Confusion

Hi there,

The Fv mode in R series is awesome but something in it are confusing.

As I really like the Fv mode and almost always use it, I found that without being able to figure out what's the cause, between SS, Aperture, EV, and ISO, sometimes I can only select SS, Aperture and ISO and cluelessly I can't choose the EV with the rear control wheel, it just skips the EV, but sometimes it works as expected.

Or, when it can choose all settings with the rear control wheel, SS, Aperture, EV, and ISO but can't set the ISO to Auto with the front control wheel, sometimes it stuck at the lowest/highest ISO without can be set to Auto by turning the front control wheel further and sometimes it works as expected but I didn't notice what is causing this.

Is there certain conditions that cause the Fv mode to behave like that or it's a firmware problem?

Is someone having the same confusion?

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Canon EOS RP Canon EF 16-35mm F4L IS USM Canon 85mm F1.4L IS USM Canon RF 50mm F1.8 STM Canon RF 70-200 F4 L +1 more
ANSWER:
juanmaasecas Senior Member • Posts: 1,424
Re: Fv Mode Confusion
2

Sinawang wrote:

Hi there,

The Fv mode in R series is awesome but something in it are confusing.

As I really like the Fv mode and almost always use it, I found that without being able to figure out what's the cause, between SS, Aperture, EV, and ISO, sometimes I can only select SS, Aperture and ISO and cluelessly I can't choose the EV with the rear control wheel, it just skips the EV, but sometimes it works as expected.

Or, when it can choose all settings with the rear control wheel, SS, Aperture, EV, and ISO but can't set the ISO to Auto with the front control wheel, sometimes it stuck at the lowest/highest ISO without can be set to Auto by turning the front control wheel further and sometimes it works as expected but I didn't notice what is causing this.

Is there certain conditions that cause the Fv mode to behave like that or it's a firmware problem?

Is someone having the same confusion?

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

I also use Fv most of the time.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

 juanmaasecas's gear list:juanmaasecas's gear list
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OP Sinawang Forum Member • Posts: 67
Re: Fv Mode Confusion

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

So, the metering work is the culprit? That's why I can't figure out, my mind didn't think as far as what you told me.

My metering is also at the lowest setting at 4s, but that still got me stuck at lowest ISO when I need it to be Auto and, when the ISO is already at Auto in the first place the exp comp can't be selected as it's being skipped by control wheel.

I also use Fv most of the time.

Yes, it's like when you want to use full manual or semi auto faster the Fv is the 1st choice.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

I set Aperture to the lens control ring as aperture is a lens' atribute so my brain doesn't need to think which wheel to dial to change aperture, it's subjectively faster for me to work that way. I still need the rear wheel to change between shutter, exp comp and ISO, and oftenly I set my ISO at auto but not most of the time, so the rear wheel is used to switch between shutter and exp comp more often.

But I think I would try your setup and see if it work faster for me than my own setup.

Thanks for pointing this out.

 Sinawang's gear list:Sinawang's gear list
Canon EOS RP Canon EF 16-35mm F4L IS USM Canon 85mm F1.4L IS USM Canon RF 50mm F1.8 STM Canon RF 70-200 F4 L +1 more
juanmaasecas Senior Member • Posts: 1,424
Re: Fv Mode Confusion

Sinawang wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

So, the metering work is the culprit? That's why I can't figure out, my mind didn't think as far as what you told me.

My metering is also at the lowest setting at 4s, but that still got me stuck at lowest ISO when I need it to be Auto and, when the ISO is already at Auto the exp comp can't be selected and being skipped by control wheel.

I also use Fv most of the time.

Yes, it's like when you want to use full manual or semi auto faster the Fv is the 1st choice.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

I set Aperture to the lens control ring as aperture is a lens' atribute so my brain doesn't need to think which wheel to dial to change aperture, it's subjectively faster for me to work that way. I still need the rear wheel to change between shutter, exp comp and ISO, and oftenly I set my ISO at auto but not most of the time, so the rear wheel is used to switch between shutter and exp comp more often.

But I think I would try your setup and see if it work faster for me than my own setup.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Yes, I also use the lens control wheel (in my case the adapter including the ring) for aperture. 
the top rear wheel is mandatory to change between the settings, but I mean that I have the round wheel around the set button for exposure compensation. Doing it this way i minimize duplicated settings when using other modes (like manual). I only need to use the rear top dial when I want to change iso (that I have it auto most of the time). And as I don’t change the iso that often it’s all fine for me (basically just go to a certain value and then back to auto with the Jon button).

the thing that Canon “fixes” the metering for a few seconds is quite annoying. In Sony you could see the metering changing in real time, but in Canon you need to half press to see the ISO value (for example).

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SigZero
SigZero Contributing Member • Posts: 602
Re: Fv Mode Confusion
1

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

I also use Fv most of the time.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

I thought that I'll love Fv mode until I've discovered that Auto ISO settings are not effective in this mode - so If I need some custom shutter speed in auto I need to use Av

Br, Paweł.

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My photo-blog: http://pawel.online

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Karl_Guttag Senior Member • Posts: 1,152
Note - Turning the Control Ring Resets the Exposure Timer
1

Sinawang wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

So, the metering work is the culprit? That's why I can't figure out, my mind didn't think as far as what you told me.

Once you "lock" exposure (with say a half shutter press) then the exposure timer kicks in.  Turning the control ring WHILE the exposure timer is running will reset the timer and you have to wait again. Thus if you keep turning the control ring, the exposure timer will lock you out of getting back to Auto (IMO, a dumb way for it to work).

If you were in AUTO-ISO when you locked the exposure, then if you don't touch the control ring, it will go back to Auto when the timer runs out.

If you were in "Auto-ISO" then moved to a fixed ISO and then say did a half-press, then you will start the timer and not be able to get back to auto ISO using the control ring until the timer expires. If you wait and don't touch the ring then after the timer expires you can get back.  You can use something like the M-Fn button to get you back to Auto ISO without waiting for the time.

The key point here is that once you start the exposure timer can't get back to Auto ISO, by turning the control ring. Continuing to turn the control ring just keeps you locked out. You have to wait for the exposure timer to time out (a variable setting) or use the M-Fn or back LCD or some other way to get back to Auto.

My metering is also at the lowest setting at 4s, but that still got me stuck at lowest ISO when I need it to be Auto and, when the ISO is already at Auto in the first place the exp comp can't be selected as it's being skipped by control wheel.

I also use Fv most of the time.

Yes, it's like when you want to use full manual or semi auto faster the Fv is the 1st choice.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

I set Aperture to the lens control ring as aperture is a lens' atribute so my brain doesn't need to think which wheel to dial to change aperture, it's subjectively faster for me to work that way. I still need the rear wheel to change between shutter, exp comp and ISO, and oftenly I set my ISO at auto but not most of the time, so the rear wheel is used to switch between shutter and exp comp more often.

But I think I would try your setup and see if it work faster for me than my own setup.

Thanks for pointing this out.

 Karl_Guttag's gear list:Karl_Guttag's gear list
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selected answer This post was selected as the answer by the original poster.
juanmaasecas Senior Member • Posts: 1,424
Re: Fv Mode Confusion

SigZero wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

I also use Fv most of the time.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

I thought that I'll love Fv mode until I've discovered that Auto ISO settings are not effective in this mode - so If I need some custom shutter speed in auto I need to use Av

Br, Paweł.

I commented that In other thread already, I can’t understand why the auto iso minimum shutter speed is not working in this mode, come on Canon!

 juanmaasecas's gear list:juanmaasecas's gear list
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OP Sinawang Forum Member • Posts: 67
Re: Note - Turning the Control Ring Resets the Exposure Timer

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Sinawang wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

So, the metering work is the culprit? That's why I can't figure out, my mind didn't think as far as what you told me.

Once you "lock" exposure (with say a half shutter press) then the exposure timer kicks in. Turning the control ring WHILE the exposure timer is running will reset the timer and you have to wait again. Thus if you keep turning the control ring, the exposure timer will lock you out of getting back to Auto (IMO, a dumb way for it to work).

If you were in AUTO-ISO when you locked the exposure, then if you don't touch the control ring, it will go back to Auto when the timer runs out.

If you were in "Auto-ISO" then moved to a fixed ISO and then say did a half-press, then you will start the timer and not be able to get back to auto ISO using the control ring until the timer expires. If you wait and don't touch the ring then after the timer expires you can get back. You can use something like the M-Fn button to get you back to Auto ISO without waiting for the time.

The key point here is that once you start the exposure timer can't get back to Auto ISO, by turning the control ring. Continuing to turn the control ring just keeps you locked out. You have to wait for the exposure timer to time out (a variable setting) or use the M-Fn or back LCD or some other way to get back to Auto.

That is thorough explanation for why it's so confusing for me when I first realize of this strange behaviour with this mode.

Thanks so much, I appreciate you to spare your time to explain this detailed.

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Canon EOS RP Canon EF 16-35mm F4L IS USM Canon 85mm F1.4L IS USM Canon RF 50mm F1.8 STM Canon RF 70-200 F4 L +1 more
OP Sinawang Forum Member • Posts: 67
Re: Fv Mode Confusion

SigZero wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

I also use Fv most of the time.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

I thought that I'll love Fv mode until I've discovered that Auto ISO settings are not effective in this mode - so If I need some custom shutter speed in auto I need to use Av

Br, Paweł.

Do you mind to elaborate this?

 Sinawang's gear list:Sinawang's gear list
Canon EOS RP Canon EF 16-35mm F4L IS USM Canon 85mm F1.4L IS USM Canon RF 50mm F1.8 STM Canon RF 70-200 F4 L +1 more
OP Sinawang Forum Member • Posts: 67
Re: Fv Mode Confusion

juanmaasecas wrote:

SigZero wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

I also use Fv most of the time.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

I thought that I'll love Fv mode until I've discovered that Auto ISO settings are not effective in this mode - so If I need some custom shutter speed in auto I need to use Av

Br, Paweł.

I commented that In other thread already, I can’t understand why the auto iso minimum shutter speed is not working in this mode, come on Canon!

Do you mean the shutter speed in AutoISO bypasses the minimum limit that we preset?

 Sinawang's gear list:Sinawang's gear list
Canon EOS RP Canon EF 16-35mm F4L IS USM Canon 85mm F1.4L IS USM Canon RF 50mm F1.8 STM Canon RF 70-200 F4 L +1 more
juanmaasecas Senior Member • Posts: 1,424
Re: Fv Mode Confusion

Sinawang wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

SigZero wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

I also use Fv most of the time.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

I thought that I'll love Fv mode until I've discovered that Auto ISO settings are not effective in this mode - so If I need some custom shutter speed in auto I need to use Av

Br, Paweł.

I commented that In other thread already, I can’t understand why the auto iso minimum shutter speed is not working in this mode, come on Canon!

Do you mean the shutter speed in AutoISO bypasses the minimum limit that we preset?

Yes I think he means that indeed. The minimum auto shutter speed in Fv is depending on focal length and does not take into account the one set for Av mode…

with Sony I used Av most of the time and had a button assigned to change this parameter (auto min shutter speed), so it was very easy. With Canon you can’t assign that to a button so you need to go in the menu (I have it in my menu but still…), so for Marc Fv is still quicker as I can foto auto just pressing the bin button, and then manually change the shutter speed when needed.

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Karl_Guttag Senior Member • Posts: 1,152
Two DIFFERENT shutter mode "limits" - Wrong one being used here
2

Sinawang wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

SigZero wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

I also use Fv most of the time.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

I thought that I'll love Fv mode until I've discovered that Auto ISO settings are not effective in this mode - so If I need some custom shutter speed in auto I need to use Av

Br, Paweł.

I commented that In other thread already, I can’t understand why the auto iso minimum shutter speed is not working in this mode, come on Canon!

Do you mean the shutter speed in AutoISO bypasses the minimum limit that we preset?

If I understand what is going on correctly, this subject came up in another topic about a week ago. (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65430749). After a bunch of back and forth, the issue is that there are not one but two different types of shutter limits.

The first is in the red/camera menu (Red/Camera Menu 2 under ISO Speed Settings). The shutter speed range there is NOT the one you set to limit the shutter speed when the shutter speed is in AUTO.  As far as I can tell, this value has NO effect on the shutter speed value in the Fv (or M) modes. You need to set the Orange Custom Functions 2 menu (see below) to set the shutter speed range limit.

Quoting from my post on the solution:

The way I restrict the shutter speed is under the Orange menu (Custom Functions) Tab 2, "Set Shutter Speed Range." This will take you to a screen that will let you set the upper and lower shutter speed range that WILL cause the auto-range of the shutter speed to stop.

It is confusing that they have two ways of "limiting" the shutter speed range. It is doubly confusing that the ISO range is set in the red menu, and the shutter speed range (and Av range) is set in the Orange menu.

 Karl_Guttag's gear list:Karl_Guttag's gear list
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juanmaasecas Senior Member • Posts: 1,424
Re: Two DIFFERENT shutter mode "limits" - Wrong one being used here
1

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Sinawang wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

SigZero wrote:

juanmaasecas wrote:

While the camera is "metering" the iso can't be switched back to auto. You need to wait a little bit I think (you can set the metering time lower, the lowest I think is 4s).

I also use Fv most of the time.

In my R5, I keep the control wheel for aperture, front dial for exposure compensation, and the Fv setting most of the time is in the speed, so I can change those three parameters without moving the Fv setting (just with the other wheels). when I want to go back to auto speed, I just press the bin button, etc.

I thought that I'll love Fv mode until I've discovered that Auto ISO settings are not effective in this mode - so If I need some custom shutter speed in auto I need to use Av

Br, Paweł.

I commented that In other thread already, I can’t understand why the auto iso minimum shutter speed is not working in this mode, come on Canon!

Do you mean the shutter speed in AutoISO bypasses the minimum limit that we preset?

If I understand what is going on correctly, this subject came up in another topic about a week ago. (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65430749). After a bunch of back and forth, the issue is that there are not one but two different types of shutter limits.

The first is in the red/camera menu (Red/Camera Menu 2 under ISO Speed Settings). The shutter speed range there is NOT the one you set to limit the shutter speed when the shutter speed is in AUTO. As far as I can tell, this value has NO effect on the shutter speed value in the Fv (or M) modes. You need to set the Orange Custom Functions 2 menu (see below) to set the shutter speed range limit.

Quoting from my post on the solution:

The way I restrict the shutter speed is under the Orange menu (Custom Functions) Tab 2, "Set Shutter Speed Range." This will take you to a screen that will let you set the upper and lower shutter speed range that WILL cause the auto-range of the shutter speed to stop.

It is confusing that they have two ways of "limiting" the shutter speed range. It is doubly confusing that the ISO range is set in the red menu, and the shutter speed range (and Av range) is set in the Orange menu.

The problem is when you want the camera to go to slower shutter speeds in auto… in that menu you can set the minimum shutter speed to be faster than the auto would be, but not the other way around as far as I understand.

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OP Sinawang Forum Member • Posts: 67
Re: Two DIFFERENT shutter mode "limits" - Wrong one being used here

Karl_Guttag wrote:

If I understand what is going on correctly, this subject came up in another topic about a week ago. (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65430749). After a bunch of back and forth, the issue is that there are not one but two different types of shutter limits.

The first is in the red/camera menu (Red/Camera Menu 2 under ISO Speed Settings). The shutter speed range there is NOT the one you set to limit the shutter speed when the shutter speed is in AUTO. As far as I can tell, this value has NO effect on the shutter speed value in the Fv (or M) modes. You need to set the Orange Custom Functions 2 menu (see below) to set the shutter speed range limit.

Quoting from my post on the solution:

The way I restrict the shutter speed is under the Orange menu (Custom Functions) Tab 2, "Set Shutter Speed Range." This will take you to a screen that will let you set the upper and lower shutter speed range that WILL cause the auto-range of the shutter speed to stop.

It is confusing that they have two ways of "limiting" the shutter speed range. It is doubly confusing that the ISO range is set in the red menu, and the shutter speed range (and Av range) is set in the Orange menu.

Thanks for the link.

Fortunately for what I do I mainly prioritize the shutter speed at full control and prefer the ISO to be at Auto and manually adjusted as needed, so I wont be bothered as much as others about this minimum SS at Auto ISO setting, at least now I know how and where to set that up.

 Sinawang's gear list:Sinawang's gear list
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Karl_Guttag Senior Member • Posts: 1,152
Re: Two DIFFERENT shutter mode "limits" - Wrong one being used here
1

Sinawang wrote:

Thanks for the link.

Fortunately for what I do I mainly prioritize the shutter speed at full control and prefer the ISO to be at Auto and manually adjusted as needed, so I wont be bothered as much as others about this minimum SS at Auto ISO setting, at least now I know how and where to set that up.

Frankly, I tried Fv for a while and gave up.

I mostly use M-mode with Auto-ISO. This lets me control both shutter and aperture. I find DxO DeepPrime does a great job with noise up through ISO 12,800 and not that bad at 25,600 on the R5 RAW files.  In "tricky" light situations or with flash, I will use a fixed ISO.

With IS and IBIS, I'm only worried about the motion of the subject (except for VERY long exposures). If the subject is still and I want high quality, then I will use Av with a fixed ISO.

Keeping to a few modes helps make sure I don't let the camera do something dumb.

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