Not a Mirrorless in sight….

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
straitouttahell
straitouttahell Contributing Member • Posts: 709
Re: Size of a DSLR
3

Canadianguy wrote:

I saw the main selling points of EVIL as:

1) Got rid of the mirror box - this saved them the flange distance space needed to clear the mirror and allowed for more optical design choices in lenses.

2) Got rid of the separate AF sensor - saved them design complexity in alignment of the AF sensor to the image sensor. But added complexity and processor load onto the image sensor doing duel roles.

3) WYSIWYG on the viewfinder - or at least closer than what an optical VF could provide.

4) Improved AF for video.

5) IBIS

 straitouttahell's gear list:straitouttahell's gear list
Nikon D2X Nikon D7100 Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro OS HSM | C Sigma 30mm F1.4 DC HSM Art Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM Art +3 more
straitouttahell
straitouttahell Contributing Member • Posts: 709
Re: Size of a DSLR
2

T O Shooter wrote:

But it flies in the face of all the fellows that raved over the Z7 and Z6 because they could get rid of those huge brick of a DSLR, those dinosaurs

That's not the case. DSLRs still are somewhat dinosaurs. It's just that *this* specific MILC model had to be big. The top pro camera always were big. Their users want them like this: big, brute and sturdy.

 straitouttahell's gear list:straitouttahell's gear list
Nikon D2X Nikon D7100 Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro OS HSM | C Sigma 30mm F1.4 DC HSM Art Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM Art +3 more
DenWil
DenWil Veteran Member • Posts: 4,458
Re: Not a Mirrorless in sight….
8

lickity split wrote:

Ever since I joined DPR the Mirrorless customers bragged that MILC was the future and it’s better than DSLR’s at everything ,we’ll it’s been almost a decade and still none of pros have switched when it matters most, the Olympics is here again and still MILC cameras are NOT and I repeat NOT found at the Nikon Booth in Tokyo, i sure plenty of pros tried one out of curiosity just to see how it performs only to quickly put it back down and pick up their trusted D5-D6.

https://nikonrumors.com/2021/07/25/check-out-the-nikon-gear-room-at-the-tokyo-olympic-games-2021.aspx/

ML is the next thing. Advertisers and pundits told us so.

When everyone had their film kits  the medium was stagnant , not inclusive,  and  sales lagged and then came digital to revitalize an industry. A decade  or so  later  dumping mirrors and  adding new mounts  allow  the manufacturers to  sell sell sell all but identical replacement kits to the same people one more time. One more 35mm lens, one more 85mm lens...

The new system may be  technically superior  however so far I have not seen results so dynamic at a glance to justify the  expense to anyone but gear heads whose thing is collecting the next piece of gear- not  the folks  in the middle of Mojave at 5AM prepared to shoot in the day's best light.

-- hide signature --

dw

straitouttahell
straitouttahell Contributing Member • Posts: 709
Re: Not a Mirrorless in sight….
5

yray wrote:

I’m thinking Nikon will do themselves a favor if they keep DSLR line going, even if slimmed down to just a couple of models, for a while longer. They still have a dedicated following heavily invested in this mount, which probably will still be alive and kicking, and refreshing bodies and lenses for another decade or two.

In ML they are just also-runs with no obvious advantage over the competition.

I’m actually curious what would have happened if Nikon were releasing their ML in both F and Z mounts. Same exact models. Would be a nice test of the new mount viability, but then, obviously, they wouldn’t be able to push new expensive lenses on the early adopters.

That's a kind of comment I stumble upon every so often.

According to which, Nikon's future should depend on those users who just want to buy another one or two bodies in the rest of their lives and hang on to those half-century old lenses

I'm not sure that is going to keep Nikon alive for a long time.

Nikon is making the best lenses they ever released, thanks to Z-Mount. With FTZ, you can use everything from AF-S on. Even old AI lenses enjoy a second youth, thanks to live view and focus peaking.

The only ones who were left behind are the AF-D owners. Ouch.

I wouldn't say Nikon didn't to well with their Z cameras. Those who are invested in F mount have a good chance to keep using what they have using the adapter.

As per AF-D lenses owners, that's probably about time they upgrade. Newer lenses are better. And Nikon isn't probably going to stay alive just by selling one or two more bodies to those customers in the next 20 years.

 straitouttahell's gear list:straitouttahell's gear list
Nikon D2X Nikon D7100 Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro OS HSM | C Sigma 30mm F1.4 DC HSM Art Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM Art +3 more
sandy b
sandy b Veteran Member • Posts: 9,680
You can exactly gauge size

From Nilon Rumors

 sandy b's gear list:sandy b's gear list
Nikon D750 Nikon D7500 Nikon Z6 Nikon Z50 Nikon AF-S Teleconverter TC-14E II +12 more
dave gaines
dave gaines Veteran Member • Posts: 9,674
I can not exactly gauge size

sandy b wrote:

From Nilon Rumors

Those guys at Nylon Rumors are so slick.

I didn't go to your link. I'd already read the story here and saw the one photo you posted.

I find reading Nikon Rumors is often pointless because there's so much speculation so far out in advance of any real news. But this is an actual photo over someone's shoulder who actually has the prototype Z9.

That's the 180-400 mm lens. I've never handled that one. What does this say to you about the size of the camera?

-- hide signature --

Dave - Be safe. Stay Healthy.

 dave gaines's gear list:dave gaines's gear list
Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom Olympus E-330 Nikon D800E Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR +17 more
sandy b
sandy b Veteran Member • Posts: 9,680
Re: I can not exactly gauge size
1

I'd guess a little  smaller and lighter than a D6. But I haven't handled a pro body since I sold my D3. Others here can be a better judge.

 sandy b's gear list:sandy b's gear list
Nikon D750 Nikon D7500 Nikon Z6 Nikon Z50 Nikon AF-S Teleconverter TC-14E II +12 more
yray
yray Senior Member • Posts: 2,419
Re: Not a Mirrorless in sight….
3

straitouttahell wrote:

yray wrote:

I’m thinking Nikon will do themselves a favor if they keep DSLR line going, even if slimmed down to just a couple of models, for a while longer. They still have a dedicated following heavily invested in this mount, which probably will still be alive and kicking, and refreshing bodies and lenses for another decade or two.

In ML they are just also-runs with no obvious advantage over the competition.

I’m actually curious what would have happened if Nikon were releasing their ML in both F and Z mounts. Same exact models. Would be a nice test of the new mount viability, but then, obviously, they wouldn’t be able to push new expensive lenses on the early adopters.

That's a kind of comment I stumble upon every so often.

According to which, Nikon's future should depend on those users who just want to buy another one or two bodies in the rest of their lives and hang on to those half-century old lenses

Those are Nikon’s best users. The remainder falls into two categories: those who buy a cheap kit and never bother to buy another lens, and those who’re always looking for the latest and greatest because photography for them is all about technology. That latter group is the most vocal around here but might be somewhat underrepresented in the real world.

I'm not sure that is going to keep Nikon alive for a long time.

If they stayed with the F-mount they could have their cake and eat it too. Don’t tell me you can’t make a good lens in F mount. Nikon has done it, and Sigma has been really pushing  the envelope. But of course it is much more attractive to start selling the same lenses all over again at jacked up prices in the whole new mount. If this is how you want to spend your income, that’s your prerogative, but I will pass.

Nikon is making the best lenses they ever released, thanks to Z-Mount. With FTZ, you can use everything from AF-S on. Even old AI lenses enjoy a second youth, thanks to live view and focus peaking.

The way AI lenses enjoy a second youth they may enjoy it with any other ML brand with the dumbest of adapters. The only difference will be they won’t record your aperture in EXIF.

The only ones who were left behind are the AF-D owners. Ouch.

Ouch? Their 85, 105, 135, 180 AF-D are anything but. And I can probably think of a few more.

I wouldn't say Nikon didn't to well with their Z cameras. Those who are invested in F mount have a good chance to keep using what they have using the adapter.

But why? Why would I want to  buy a new body and an adapter if the older body is already so good, needs no adapter, and has a superior viewfinder, battery life, ergonomics and controls, etc.

As per AF-D lenses owners, that's probably about time they upgrade. Newer lenses are better.

The question is: are they better enough to make a noticeable enough difference in practice to justify the exorbitant expense. In other words, would anyone notice? I’m pretty sure I know the answer.

The irony of this is the one technology in ML that would actually be useful for those old lenses, IBIS, is being put into cameras which don’t support those lenses.

And Nikon isn't probably going to stay alive just by selling one or two more bodies to those customers in the next 20 years.

You can say they reached a plateau with DSLRs, but this will happen to ML too, only much faster. Once everyone agrees that AF is passable and battery life is passable, what next? Try to sell a few more pixels by getting people excited? At best ML is a temporary shot in the arm which won’t solve the fundamental problem: for most people cameras and lenses are already good enough.

straitouttahell
straitouttahell Contributing Member • Posts: 709
Re: Not a Mirrorless in sight….
6

yray wrote:

straitouttahell wrote:

yray wrote:

I’m thinking Nikon will do themselves a favor if they keep DSLR line going, even if slimmed down to just a couple of models, for a while longer. They still have a dedicated following heavily invested in this mount, which probably will still be alive and kicking, and refreshing bodies and lenses for another decade or two.

In ML they are just also-runs with no obvious advantage over the competition.

I’m actually curious what would have happened if Nikon were releasing their ML in both F and Z mounts. Same exact models. Would be a nice test of the new mount viability, but then, obviously, they wouldn’t be able to push new expensive lenses on the early adopters.

That's a kind of comment I stumble upon every so often.

According to which, Nikon's future should depend on those users who just want to buy another one or two bodies in the rest of their lives and hang on to those half-century old lenses

Those are Nikon’s best users.

No, they aren't. Nikon's best users are those who buy new Nikon products.

The remainder falls into two categories: those who buy a cheap kit and never bother to buy another lens,

Oh, those are probably the kind of users Nikon misses most.

and those who’re always looking for the latest and greatest because photography for them is all about technology.

Those must account for something, but I suspect they are far less relevant one may think.

That latter group is the most vocal around here but might be somewhat underrepresented in the real world.

I'm not sure that is going to keep Nikon alive for a long time.

If they stayed with the F-mount they could have their cake and eat it too. Don’t tell me you can’t make a good lens in F mount.

You can. But why would you carry in the future a thing of the past?

Nikon has done it, and Sigma has been really pushing the envelope. But of course it is much more attractive to start selling the same lenses all over again at jacked up prices in the whole new mount. If this is how you want to spend your income, that’s your prerogative, but I will pass.

Look at my gear list. I'm not one that buy the latest and greatest. Heck, I've even bought a D2x in 2021 just because I realized I never liked a photo I've taken since the advent of Expeed

Nikon is making the best lenses they ever released, thanks to Z-Mount. With FTZ, you can use everything from AF-S on. Even old AI lenses enjoy a second youth, thanks to live view and focus peaking.

The way AI lenses enjoy a second youth they may enjoy it with any other ML brand with the dumbest of adapters. The only difference will be they won’t record your aperture in EXIF.

True.

Have you tried the competition? I have.

Sony is joking. Their UI is an experiment on how far you can stretch ones patience before they go berserk.

Canon's sensors are getting in 2021 where Nikon was in 2010, in terms of DR

Olympus is the most serious of them, but that small sensor is just a tad too small.

Which of them are you going to buy, just to avoid letting Nikon have it their way?

The only ones who were left behind are the AF-D owners. Ouch.

Ouch? Their 85, 105, 135, 180 AF-D are anything but. And I can probably think of a few more.

If you will miss those lenses, I have bad news and good news.

Bad news is, you are not Nikon's future.

Good news is, the D850 is still in production..

I wouldn't say Nikon didn't to well with their Z cameras. Those who are invested in F mount have a good chance to keep using what they have using the adapter.

But why? Why would I want to buy a new body and an adapter if the older body is already so good, needs no adapter, and has a superior viewfinder, battery life, ergonomics and controls, etc.

As I wrote above, if you feel it that way, it's no problem. Just buy a D850. The future of photography is made of people who post vídeos on YouTube and screw cameras below small helicopters. Those are the guys who are spending the money now, those are the people that must be served if you want to stay alive.

If you dont like it, start spending money again

As per AF-D lenses owners, that's probably about time they upgrade. Newer lenses are better.

The question is: are they better enough to make a noticeable enough difference in practice to justify the exorbitant expense. In other words, would anyone notice? I’m pretty sure I know the answer

I wouldn't notice if 90% of the posters of this forum would switch back to a D100

 straitouttahell's gear list:straitouttahell's gear list
Nikon D2X Nikon D7100 Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro OS HSM | C Sigma 30mm F1.4 DC HSM Art Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM Art +3 more
m_black
m_black Senior Member • Posts: 1,026
The inexplicable hate rages on
10

T O Shooter wrote:

sandy b wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2021/07/29/first-pictures-of-the-back-of-the-nikon-z9-camera.aspx/

Looks the size of a DSLR. Wasn't the main selling point of Nikon ML that it was small?

But to get a really good one you have to make it big. And lower the bar when creating the D6 to be able to say that the big Z9 is as good or better?? Whatever works I guess.

Nikon never said mirrorless was about small size. Olympus did, 12 years ago or so, as a way to spin their new system. That said, the Z9 looks to be only a little taller than an ungripped D850. Your contempt for something you haven't used is just funny now. Every four months or so I poke my head in this forum to see what's going on and your message is the same. At least you are consistent!

-- hide signature --

(formerly mgblack74)
On IG: mikeblack_pw

 m_black's gear list:m_black's gear list
Nikon Z6 Nikon Z 50mm F1.8 Nikon Z 24-70mm F2.8 Nikon Z 85mm F1.8 Nikon Z 20mm F1.8 +1 more
Stan Disbrow Veteran Member • Posts: 5,622
Re: Not a Mirrorless in sight….

Hi,

Incorrect. Nikon's main business is in industrial optics. And that has picked up substantially since Covid. As industries, especially Electronics, are scrambling to pick up the parts of their operations which are completely screwed up in China.

I have not bought anything from Nikon Imaging since 2018. I'm sticking with F mount and my nice collection of lenses going all the way back to 1971 (a pre AI 85/1.8). I have no plans for acquiring anything else unless they make a Df2. And, no, the Zfc isn't good enough to be a Df2.

However, I have now spent just shy of 4 million dollars on industrial optics since March 2020. So, Nikon is making plenty off me.

How much have you spent with Nikon that same timeframe? And I won't split hairs with F   Z mount or even just Nikon Imaging. Feel free to add in what you've spent with all Nikon's divisions.

The fact is, both the F and the Z mount and the SLRs and MILCs are profitable products for Nikon. It matters not which anyone buys. And all of those products are capable tools. Pick the ones which work best for you.

I can say that the microscope camera which uses the D4 sensor is wonderful on a trinocular microscope for working with microelectronics. Just what we needed when we needed it.

Stan

-- hide signature --

Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
Once you start down the DSLR path, forever will it dominate your destiny! Consume
your bank account, it will! Like mine, it did!

 Stan Disbrow's gear list:Stan Disbrow's gear list
Kodak DCS520 Kodak DCS760 Nikon D1H Pentax 645D Nikon Df +17 more
Droster Senior Member • Posts: 1,618
Re: Not a Mirrorless in sight….
5

yray wrote:

straitouttahell wrote:

yray wrote:

I’m thinking Nikon will do themselves a favor if they keep DSLR line going, even if slimmed down to just a couple of models, for a while longer. They still have a dedicated following heavily invested in this mount, which probably will still be alive and kicking, and refreshing bodies and lenses for another decade or two.

In ML they are just also-runs with no obvious advantage over the competition.

I’m actually curious what would have happened if Nikon were releasing their ML in both F and Z mounts. Same exact models. Would be a nice test of the new mount viability, but then, obviously, they wouldn’t be able to push new expensive lenses on the early adopters.

That's a kind of comment I stumble upon every so often.

According to which, Nikon's future should depend on those users who just want to buy another one or two bodies in the rest of their lives and hang on to those half-century old lenses

Those are Nikon’s best users. The remainder falls into two categories: those who buy a cheap kit and never bother to buy another lens, and those who’re always looking for the latest and greatest because photography for them is all about technology. That latter group is the most vocal around here but might be somewhat underrepresented in the real world.

I'm not sure that is going to keep Nikon alive for a long time.

If they stayed with the F-mount they could have their cake and eat it too. Don’t tell me you can’t make a good lens in F mount. Nikon has done it, and Sigma has been really pushing the envelope. But of course it is much more attractive to start selling the same lenses all over again at jacked up prices in the whole new mount. If this is how you want to spend your income, that’s your prerogative, but I will pass.

Nikon is making the best lenses they ever released, thanks to Z-Mount. With FTZ, you can use everything from AF-S on. Even old AI lenses enjoy a second youth, thanks to live view and focus peaking.

The way AI lenses enjoy a second youth they may enjoy it with any other ML brand with the dumbest of adapters. The only difference will be they won’t record your aperture in EXIF.

The only ones who were left behind are the AF-D owners. Ouch.

Ouch? Their 85, 105, 135, 180 AF-D are anything but. And I can probably think of a few more.

I wouldn't say Nikon didn't to well with their Z cameras. Those who are invested in F mount have a good chance to keep using what they have using the adapter.

But why? Why would I want to buy a new body and an adapter if the older body is already so good, needs no adapter, and has a superior viewfinder, battery life, ergonomics and controls, etc.

As per AF-D lenses owners, that's probably about time they upgrade. Newer lenses are better.

The question is: are they better enough to make a noticeable enough difference in practice to justify the exorbitant expense. In other words, would anyone notice? I’m pretty sure I know the answer.

The irony of this is the one technology in ML that would actually be useful for those old lenses, IBIS, is being put into cameras which don’t support those lenses.

And Nikon isn't probably going to stay alive just by selling one or two more bodies to those customers in the next 20 years.

You can say they reached a plateau with DSLRs, but this will happen to ML too, only much faster. Once everyone agrees that AF is passable and battery life is passable, what next? Try to sell a few more pixels by getting people excited? At best ML is a temporary shot in the arm which won’t solve the fundamental problem: for most people cameras and lenses are already good enough.

At the least mirrorless has a higher performance ceiling than DSLRs and will continue to faster.

Stagnating and being good enough is one thing, but there are always people chasing and attaining higher heights and always trying new technology to achieve those new heights. And these people who are not afraid of trying are the paying customers, and it’s only natural companies listen to those who speak with their wallets. The F-mount is done because it’s a mature system and existing users are happy with their gear, and aren’t as willing to spend money on it as the users of today and tomorrow are willing to spend on mirrorless. There’s only this far they can carry the F-mount and they even carried it further than Canon did with the EF. But it’s time for it to rest.

Mirrorless tech will too indeed meet diminishing returns, but at least there’s a constant stream of fresh blood coming in. Spending any resources on the F-mount today is just wasting resources they should be spending to compete against Canon and Sony in the tech arms race on all fronts, from entry level to the very high end.

The good thing is there’s a real high end camera out there and will be in our grubby hands in a few months. And that Nikon will finally join Canon and Sony in the tech arms race proper.

I used to say in 2018 when the RF and Z first launched, the users of the future who start with low-mid end mirrorless will end up using higher end mirrorless. They’re not going to move back into DSLRs. Three years on, that future is now, and slightly earlier for Canon and Sony.

Back to the original topic: The fact that Sony’s there, the R5 and the Z9 are there and the OP chose to go “not a mirrorless in sight” shows how blind some are to the reality of the situation.

 Droster's gear list:Droster's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D500 Nikon Z6 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm F4G ED VR +6 more
carl_g
carl_g Regular Member • Posts: 371
Re: Not a Mirrorless in sight….
1

Droster wrote:

yray wrote:

straitouttahell wrote:

yray wrote:

I’m thinking Nikon will do themselves a favor if they keep DSLR line going, even if slimmed down to just a couple of models, for a while longer. They still have a dedicated following heavily invested in this mount, which probably will still be alive and kicking, and refreshing bodies and lenses for another decade or two.

In ML they are just also-runs with no obvious advantage over the competition.

I’m actually curious what would have happened if Nikon were releasing their ML in both F and Z mounts. Same exact models. Would be a nice test of the new mount viability, but then, obviously, they wouldn’t be able to push new expensive lenses on the early adopters.

That's a kind of comment I stumble upon every so often.

According to which, Nikon's future should depend on those users who just want to buy another one or two bodies in the rest of their lives and hang on to those half-century old lenses

Those are Nikon’s best users. The remainder falls into two categories: those who buy a cheap kit and never bother to buy another lens, and those who’re always looking for the latest and greatest because photography for them is all about technology. That latter group is the most vocal around here but might be somewhat underrepresented in the real world.

I'm not sure that is going to keep Nikon alive for a long time.

If they stayed with the F-mount they could have their cake and eat it too. Don’t tell me you can’t make a good lens in F mount. Nikon has done it, and Sigma has been really pushing the envelope. But of course it is much more attractive to start selling the same lenses all over again at jacked up prices in the whole new mount. If this is how you want to spend your income, that’s your prerogative, but I will pass.

Nikon is making the best lenses they ever released, thanks to Z-Mount. With FTZ, you can use everything from AF-S on. Even old AI lenses enjoy a second youth, thanks to live view and focus peaking.

The way AI lenses enjoy a second youth they may enjoy it with any other ML brand with the dumbest of adapters. The only difference will be they won’t record your aperture in EXIF.

The only ones who were left behind are the AF-D owners. Ouch.

Ouch? Their 85, 105, 135, 180 AF-D are anything but. And I can probably think of a few more.

I wouldn't say Nikon didn't to well with their Z cameras. Those who are invested in F mount have a good chance to keep using what they have using the adapter.

But why? Why would I want to buy a new body and an adapter if the older body is already so good, needs no adapter, and has a superior viewfinder, battery life, ergonomics and controls, etc.

As per AF-D lenses owners, that's probably about time they upgrade. Newer lenses are better.

The question is: are they better enough to make a noticeable enough difference in practice to justify the exorbitant expense. In other words, would anyone notice? I’m pretty sure I know the answer.

The irony of this is the one technology in ML that would actually be useful for those old lenses, IBIS, is being put into cameras which don’t support those lenses.

And Nikon isn't probably going to stay alive just by selling one or two more bodies to those customers in the next 20 years.

You can say they reached a plateau with DSLRs, but this will happen to ML too, only much faster. Once everyone agrees that AF is passable and battery life is passable, what next? Try to sell a few more pixels by getting people excited? At best ML is a temporary shot in the arm which won’t solve the fundamental problem: for most people cameras and lenses are already good enough.

At the least mirrorless has a higher performance ceiling than DSLRs and will continue to faster.

Stagnating and being good enough is one thing, but there are always people chasing and attaining higher heights and always trying new technology to achieve those new heights. And these people who are not afraid of trying are the paying customers, and it’s only natural companies listen to those who speak with their wallets. The F-mount is done because it’s a mature system and existing users are happy with their gear, and aren’t as willing to spend money on it as the users of today and tomorrow are willing to spend on mirrorless. There’s only this far they can carry the F-mount and they even carried it further than Canon did with the EF. But it’s time for it to rest.

Mirrorless tech will too indeed meet diminishing returns, but at least there’s a constant stream of fresh blood coming in. Spending any resources on the F-mount today is just wasting resources they should be spending to compete against Canon and Sony in the tech arms race on all fronts, from entry level to the very high end.

The good thing is there’s a real high end camera out there and will be in our grubby hands in a few months. And that Nikon will finally join Canon and Sony in the tech arms race proper.

I used to say in 2018 when the RF and Z first launched, the users of the future who start with low-mid end mirrorless will end up using higher end mirrorless. They’re not going to move back into DSLRs. Three years on, that future is now, and slightly earlier for Canon and Sony.

Back to the original topic: The fact that Sony’s there, the R5 and the Z9 are there and the OP chose to go “not a mirrorless in sight” shows how blind some are to the reality of the situation.

Amen brother!

 carl_g's gear list:carl_g's gear list
Nikon D4 Nikon D500 Nikon Z6 Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 60mm F2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II +7 more
Bill Ferris
Bill Ferris Veteran Member • Posts: 7,308
Re: Size / weight / noise
2

Canadianguy wrote:

Rick620 wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

I saw the main selling points of EVIL as:

1) Got rid of the mirror box - this saved them the flange distance space needed to clear the mirror and allowed for more optical design choices in lenses.

2) Got rid of the separate AF sensor - saved them design complexity in alignment of the AF sensor to the image sensor. But added complexity and processor load onto the image sensor doing duel roles.

3) WYSIWYG on the viewfinder - or at least closer than what an optical VF could provide.

4) Improved AF for video.

EVIL allows one to design small bodies but if the users want bigger bodies because they want to use big and heavy 600mm lenses with them - they can do that too. Just look at how big the Sony A1 or the A9s are - they can be both fast and small.

I agree. However, as I understand it (maybe not that well!) ‘physics is physics’ and if you want a FF ML camera with all the easily available functionality/controls, such as on the high end ‘pro’ DSLR bodies that are endlessly debated, then you’ll still finish up with a similar size body despite the differences you outline above.

The whole ‘ML is smaller’ (than what?) , without adding caveats that may allow that to be the case, is a myth it seems to me?

My Z6II is undoubtedly smaller etc than my old D850 but I was prepared to accept fewer controls on the body etc etc and my reasons for ditching DSLRs were nothing to do with size/weight.

Again - are you talking about Nikon's EVIL or EVIL in general?

So according to the guy who oversaw AP's move from Nikon and Canon - he listed 3 factors in AP's move to EVIL or Sony's version of EVIL at least.

1) Size

2) Weight

3) Noise

Here's an interview with the person at AP who made the change: https://m.dpreview.com/interviews/2999935759/interview-we-talk-to-ap-director-of-photography-about-switch-to-sony

The top three reasons he cites are...

  1. Silent shooting
  2. Shooting stills and video with same system
  3. Weight

I personally have a love / hate relationship with the size and weight of the D5 - i love it when I am shooting with it - everything's is where I need it to be. I hate it when i have to carry it around when I am not shooting.

We have no idea what the weight of the Z9 is going to be but I am guessing it's going to be lighter than the D6...

Based on size comparisons done using Nikon's front side images of the Z9, D6, and D500 (using the shutter release buttons and hot shoes as references, it's pretty obvious the Z9 will be physically smaller in height, width or both than the current DSLR flagship and the APS-C flagship with vertical grip attached. The photos of the Z9 being beta tested in Tokyo suggest it will also be slimmer in depth. That adds up to a slightly smaller and lighter package. Of course, when you rotate the 400mm f/2.8 or 600mm f/4 prime into place on the mount, the physical size and weight differences tend to be somewhat mitigated. But those are exotic lenses for niche genres.

The silent shooting mode remains, as does the potential to do both still photography and videography at a high level. Personally, speaking as a wildlife and bird photographer, silent shooting and eye detect autofocus are the features that most intrigue me about mirrorless.

The D500 I currently shoot with is still an excellent body for the work I do, so I'm in no hurry to make the move. (Nor am I looking to switch brands.) My fingers are crossed that Nikon makes a "surprise" introduction at the Z9 roll-out event. An APS-C version featuring the same AF, image processor, a 10+ fps burst, limitless buffer...and silent shooting through the EVF would be quite compelling.

-- hide signature --

Bill Ferris Photography
Flagstaff, AZ
http://www.billferris.photoshelter.com

 Bill Ferris's gear list:Bill Ferris's gear list
Nikon D610 Nikon D500 Fujifilm X-T20 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +4 more
straitouttahell
straitouttahell Contributing Member • Posts: 709
Re: Not a Mirrorless in sight….

Stan Disbrow wrote:

Hi,

Incorrect. Nikon's main business is in industrial optics. And that has picked up substantially since Covid.

True.

Olympus main business is medical.

Please help me remember what happened to their photographic division

Because that's what is going to happen to Nikon's too, if they don't bring new blood to the game.

 straitouttahell's gear list:straitouttahell's gear list
Nikon D2X Nikon D7100 Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro OS HSM | C Sigma 30mm F1.4 DC HSM Art Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM Art +3 more
Canadianguy Senior Member • Posts: 2,760
Re: EVIL in general or Nikon's EVIL?

Everything you have stated is correct - EVIL is the future and Sony is there already, they have been there since the A9 MkI.
But also true is that Nikon's EVIL is not there yet - we all hope the Z9 will get them there but no one has details on how it performs - no one who isn't under NDA anyways.

I think that's is what gets confused in these EVIL vs DSLR postings especially as it relates to Nikon products.

Stan Disbrow Veteran Member • Posts: 5,622
Re: Not a Mirrorless in sight….

Hi,

I'm not talking medical. I'm talking industrial. Nikon's main optical business from the very beginning. Nikon is a main source for the optical equipment used to fabricate integrated circuits. My clients are buying those as well. What I'm involved with are the things needed to deal with circuit boards.

And I have never been impressed with Olympus microscopes. I usually go with Nikon and Leica.

As far as Nikon's imaging side goes, they aren't in any real trouble. At least not any that the rest of us who are trying to produce things are. Heck, they have enough going for them to pop out a product aimed squarely at their home market.

Stan

-- hide signature --

Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
Once you start down the DSLR path, forever will it dominate your destiny! Consume
your bank account, it will! Like mine, it did!

 Stan Disbrow's gear list:Stan Disbrow's gear list
Kodak DCS520 Kodak DCS760 Nikon D1H Pentax 645D Nikon Df +17 more
dave gaines
dave gaines Veteran Member • Posts: 9,674
Thanks for gauging size
1

sandy b wrote:

I'd guess a little smaller and lighter than a D6. But I haven't handled a pro body since I sold my D3. Others here can be a better judge.

Thanks Sandy,

Your guess is better than mine. I've been shooting the D800E and now the D850 with a slew of Nikon lenses. I just got the 300 mm f/2.8G ED VR a few months ago. That's the biggest lens I've ever owned, in 50 years of shooting 35 mm. I use a RRS gimbal head with it.

-- hide signature --

Dave - Be safe. Stay Healthy.

 dave gaines's gear list:dave gaines's gear list
Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom Olympus E-330 Nikon D800E Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR +17 more
dave gaines
dave gaines Veteran Member • Posts: 9,674
Smaller wasn't and isn't better

m_black wrote:

Nikon never said mirrorless was about small size. Olympus did, 12 years ago or so, as a way to spin their new system. That said, the Z9 looks to be only a little taller than an ungripped D850. Your contempt for something you haven't used is just funny now. Every four months or so I poke my head in this forum to see what's going on and your message is the same. At least you are consistent!

With a bigger lens mount and flange opening the Nikon Z may offer advantages in new lens designs.

Olympus never was smaller with their DSLRs. I had the E-3 and E-5 for a number of years.  It wasn't smaller. Only the telephoto lenses were smaller due to the crop factor. The Zuiko 7-14 mm, equivalent to the Nikon 14-24 f/2.8, was only slightly smaller than the Nikon. Olympus did make great lenses though.

BTW, Consistency is an important part of quality. Some of us just find new ways to say the same thing. Most of us here on the Nikon FX SLR forum aren't enamored with the mirrorless offerings from any of the major players. That may change if the Z9 answers all our needs and matches the focus and optical viewfinder quality of the DLSRs, among other things.

I do like the live histogram on my Olympus Camedia C8080 and the first live view instant shutter Olympus created with the E-330. I used both of these in Ikelite housings for underwater photography.

-- hide signature --

Dave - Be safe. Stay Healthy.

 dave gaines's gear list:dave gaines's gear list
Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom Olympus E-330 Nikon D800E Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR +17 more
Bill Ferris
Bill Ferris Veteran Member • Posts: 7,308
Re: Size / weight / noise
1

The ergonomics of the Sony ecosystem still leaves quite a bit to be desired. The menus, in particular, are laborious to navigate. So, while Sony has developed some really good tech - especially in the area of autofocus - they've left plenty of room for Canon and Nikon shooters to stay with their DSLR systems while waiting for both companies to develop flagship MILCs.

Canon seems to be closer to that objective. The autofocus in their R5 and R6 MILCs looks really impressive. I suspect that is, in part, why Canon is so much more open about the R3 being beta tested in Tokyo. Their customers can't wait for the R3 to be released. They have confidence it'll do the job.

Nikon's Z9 needs to be a homerun MILC body; no doubt about it. The Z6II and Z7II are excellent mirrorless cameras...but don't quite demonstrate the flagship level of autofocus performance needed to attract Nikon's most demanding customers to the MILC platform. But they've delivered before and certainly know what their customers expect.

I'm sitting pretty with the best APS-C wildlife and sports body in production in my camera bag and am prepared to wait until the Z9 is released and fully reviewed before making a long-term decision about a future upgrade for what I shoot. To be fair, I'm not a Z9 customer. My preference would be to wait for a flagship APS-C body. If that doesn't happen...well, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

-- hide signature --

Bill Ferris Photography
Flagstaff, AZ
http://www.billferris.photoshelter.com

 Bill Ferris's gear list:Bill Ferris's gear list
Nikon D610 Nikon D500 Fujifilm X-T20 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +4 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads