the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

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Svetlov Misha Forum Member • Posts: 79
the double shutter speed rule ruins your video
1

i'd like to share this technical vid. you are welcome for discussion)

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CanonUserG40
CanonUserG40 Regular Member • Posts: 200
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

Apart from anything else, the reference to Netflix is totally inaccurate. Their specs make no differentiation between shutter types. It's all about resolution and file types.

https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000579527-Cameras-and-Image-Capture

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OP Svetlov Misha Forum Member • Posts: 79
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

maybe.. still the reference to Netflix is about there are a tons of cameras exit but still the only one approved

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NickZ2016 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,569
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

I'm too lazy to watch the video but to be Netflix approved the camera company needs to submit the camera.

The approved list aren't the only cameras you can use . You can use anything you want if you convince them it's important for the project.  Even that is just for Netflix projects. It's not like all the older stuff they show has been reshot

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PhilPreston3072 Senior Member • Posts: 2,659
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video
6

Sorry I have to disagree.

I have used a whole gamut of shutter speeds from 1/30 to 1/1250 at 30P and it hasn't been a problem for me.  My camera has fast rolling shutter so I never notice any jello or building lean effect.  But I can see your point if someone is filming fast spinning things like propellers.

If your concern is about Rolling Shutter, then that has more to do with sensor performance than Shutter speed rule.  Cameras with fast rolling shutters will have almost unnoticeable jello effect no matter what shutter speed you use

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 15,156
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video
4

Rolling shutter is a completely different issue than the staccato appearance of low frame rates and is addressed with a different solution.  And there's more than one kind of rolling shutter artifact depending on whether it's created by linear motion (i.e., tilting verticals on horizontal pans) or rotary motion (i.e., weird helicopter blades).

OP Svetlov Misha Forum Member • Posts: 79
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

tnx for exp, what camera do you use for fast rsh? mine is sony a6300 or panasonic gx80 or any canons has bad rsh on 4k

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OP Svetlov Misha Forum Member • Posts: 79
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

its just most noticeable ones, worst of all is jello - the way you try to record some non gimbal shots or long focus lenses with tripod and someone hits the tripod.
those vertical lines became wavy. it means all your picture in the frame became wavy too.
that is the worst scenario. not even think about handgrip shootings. 
ps. not sure about the language, engrish is not my first one, so, pardon

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 15,156
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

Svetlov Misha wrote:

..someone hits the tripod.  those vertical lines became wavy. it means all your picture in the frame became wavy too.  that is the worst scenario. not even think about handgrip shootings.

IMHO if your camera is shaking so much that you get those kinds of jello effects then the footage would probably have been unusable even without them.  Nobody likes overly shaky footage.

If you really need to introduce camera shake for an effect (for example, photon torpedoes hit the Enterprise and the bridge crew goes flying off in all directions) and your camera isn't capable of doing it without jello then you can shoot it with the camera held stationary and introduce any shaking and motion blur in post production.

OP Svetlov Misha Forum Member • Posts: 79
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

i am about cheap cameras, like the sony a6300 with long focus lens for 4k has impressive jello, unacceptable

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Entropy512 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,389
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

Svetlov Misha wrote:

tnx for exp, what camera do you use for fast rsh? mine is sony a6300 or panasonic gx80 or any canons has bad rsh on 4k

VENICE?

I'm not sure if the A1 uses the stacked-DRAM buffer for video shots.  The A9/A9II, notably, do not.  They've got pretty good readout rates, but not amazing, in video modes.  (Their rolling shutter performance for stills is incredible).

The A7S3 greatly improves rolling shutter without exotic stacked-BSI sensors by keeping pixel counts low.

In short - if you want high resolution AND good rolling shutter, you'll be paying a LOT of money unless you're using a smartphone sensor.

(Smaller sensors can use exotic tricks like stacked DRAM for much lower cost, which is why Exmor RS sensors have been standard in cell phones for years but are still exotic and rare for anything larger than 1".  The readout properties of stacked sensors are a key component of the burst-stacking techniques common for mobile photography.)

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PhilPreston3072 Senior Member • Posts: 2,659
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

My cameras are Sony WX200 and Fimi Palm 2. Both are just cheap consumer cameras with tiny Sony sensors, but the side benefit is that they both have fast rolling shutter.

It appears to be more challenging but not impossible to make a Large Sensor with fast rolling shutter than with a small sensor.

See the graph here on different rolling shutter speeds depending on brand and for some cameras you can have faster rolling shutter by using crop mode

https://www.cined.com/rolling-shutter-sony-a7s-vs-arri-amira-canon-c300-5d-mark-iii-1dc-panasonic-gh4/

Here is another extensive list of camera rolling shutter figures but note that you can't just compare the % figures. You need to multiply the fps with the % to work out the msec of rolling shutter to properly compare cameras.
eg. 46% @30 fps
= 0.46 x 1/30sec
= 0.46 x 0.033sec
= 0.0153sec
=15.3msec

https://www.guthspot.se/video/deshaker.htm

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OP Svetlov Misha Forum Member • Posts: 79
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

tnx for the link) here is another video describes "rolling shutter" not even exist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCErs_7csf4

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PhilPreston3072 Senior Member • Posts: 2,659
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

Sorry, I'm still not convinced. You need to film a fast pan of a building at 1/30 shutter or filming outside the passenger window of a fast moving car at 1/30 shutter to prove there's no rolling shutter.  I am quite sure you'll still see leaning buildings and leaning guardrails and signposts at 1/30 shutter (or 360 degree shutter)

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Andrew S10 Senior Member • Posts: 1,509
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video
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Here's a list of camera rolling shutter measurements, note that their millisecond rating changes with the selected resolution.

OP Svetlov Misha Forum Member • Posts: 79
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

tnx for the link) its known) but tnx anyway

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OP Svetlov Misha Forum Member • Posts: 79
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

its more about the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNVtMmLlnoE
i mean sensor do not work line_by_line as bloggers says, the rolling shutter jello is about scanning between the frames.
frame with shutter speeds shorter than FPS - camera records only the part of the picture and the less the time for shutter speed set - the worse those info line in frame

ps, to be clear, those video - after effect's compilation, fake, not just it made with AE but because of the wrong understanding of the sensor readout process

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 15,156
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video
2

Svetlov Misha wrote:

its more about the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNVtMmLlnoE
i mean sensor do not work line_by_line as bloggers says, the rolling shutter jello is about scanning between the frames.
frame with shutter speeds shorter than FPS - camera records only the part of the picture and the less the time for shutter speed set - the worse those info line in frame

I think what you're trying to say here is that "jello" is caused by using a higher shutter speed than the frame rate and is not due to the way that the sensor is read out.

But that is wrong.

If it were true, then film cameras (which have zero rolling shutter) would exhibit "jello" when shooting at the 180 degree shutter rule, but they don't.

If it were true, then digital cameras with fast sensor readouts shooting a 180 degree shutter angles would have just as much "jello" as those with slow readouts, but they don't.

However if what you're trying to say is that using a slow shutter speed helps to hide the effect of jello, then I wouldn't argue the point.  But that's because the jello gets lost in the motion blur, and I suppose that an argument could be had as to whether that's an improvement or not.

OP Svetlov Misha Forum Member • Posts: 79
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video

film camera has fully exposed frame containing all the picture from the current moment with any shutter speed.

digital camera records full picture in the frames with equal shutter speed only and the half of the frame beginning from double speed and the higher shutter speed the slender the stripe of the picture in the frame.

the jello formed with those stripes of each frame, not every scanline of each frame while it scans by readout but by every frame with the only one stripe in it.

it's all about understanding the readout and rolling shutter principles.

those bloggers says it formed by lines of each frame, as if 2160 lines of every frame for 4k and 1080 lines of 1080p. but i want to approve it's wrong,

every frame has only low quantity of the lines of the picture in it. half or even less.
equal fps to shutter speed is the only mode recording full picture to every frame

the principal of rsh: jello formed not by bad readout scanlines of the one frame but by corrupted frames.

digital camera do not record full picture in the frame - that is the fault.

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Entropy512 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,389
Re: the double shutter speed rule ruins your video
2

Svetlov Misha wrote:

film camera has fully exposed frame containing all the picture from the current moment with any shutter speed.

That is not true.

If it were true, then film cameras wouldn't routinely have flash sync speed limitations in the 1/160 to 1/250 range - but they do.

Yes, their "rolling"/traveling-slit shutter moves MUCH faster, but it still exists.  You can see this, for example, when shooting a Philips Hue bulb at high mechanical shutter speeds - the 600Hz PWM frequency of RGB Hue units (at least older ones from a few years ago, newer ones might PWM faster???)  means that even fairly fast shutters can still exhibit noticeable banding.

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