New Sony 4/3 Sensor

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
RichardCass
RichardCass Regular Member • Posts: 148
Re: For the target customer...

If there are no tangible benefits, why would a company as experienced as Sony invest time, money and effort into producing a replacement for the current production tried and trusted model?

 RichardCass's gear list:RichardCass's gear list
Olympus E-M1 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 60mm F2.8 Macro Olympus 7-14mm F2.8 Pro Olympus 12-100mm F4.0 Olympus 25mm F1.2 +6 more
MEDISN
MEDISN Senior Member • Posts: 1,503
Re: For the target customer...
20

jwilliams wrote:

MEDISN wrote:

As someone who does require fast and reliable AF for much of my work, the EM1 line is very competitive and has been since the arrival of the mkII. To suggest otherwise is either uninformed, inexperienced or intentionally misleading.

EM1 is one small part of the m43 camera lineup.

Most likely the landing spot for the sensor being discussed.

Even though it is the top of the line in m43, any recent Canon or Sony mirrorless has surpassed it in AF capabilities and a host of other metrics.

Please elaborate, and be specific. At what price and how big is the difference? Under what circumstances? As someone who has shot with an A9 since 2017 and R5 since last summer I can say with confidence you are mistaken (or grossly exaggerated at best).

All other m43 cameras have rather pedestrian AF capabilities even compared to the lowest models of other makers.

This doesn't sound like a "budget" model sensor. We are talking about EM1 line.

Who's uninformed here? Not me.

I beg to differ. You said yourself "I personally don't do much demanding AF work".  That says enough.

victorav Senior Member • Posts: 1,906
Re: For the target customer...
1

RichardCass wrote:

If there are no tangible benefits, why would a company as experienced as Sony invest time, money and effort into producing a replacement for the current production tried and trusted model?

If someone is willing to pay for it that's why.

jwilliams Veteran Member • Posts: 6,182
Re: For the target customer...

MEDISN wrote:

jwilliams wrote:

MEDISN wrote:

As someone who does require fast and reliable AF for much of my work, the EM1 line is very competitive and has been since the arrival of the mkII. To suggest otherwise is either uninformed, inexperienced or intentionally misleading.

EM1 is one small part of the m43 camera lineup.

Most likely the landing spot for the sensor being discussed.

Even though it is the top of the line in m43, any recent Canon or Sony mirrorless has surpassed it in AF capabilities and a host of other metrics.

Please elaborate, and be specific. At what price and how big is the difference? Under what circumstances? As someone who has shot with an A9 since 2017 and R5 since last summer I can say with confidence you are mistaken (or grossly exaggerated at best).

IQ of the 20MP sensor has been eclipsed by basically any camera made in recent years. The VF of the EM1 is sorely outdated for a camera in its price range.

All other m43 cameras have rather pedestrian AF capabilities even compared to the lowest models of other makers.

This doesn't sound like a "budget" model sensor. We are talking about EM1 line.

Who's uninformed here? Not me.

I beg to differ. You said yourself "I personally don't do much demanding AF work". That says enough.

Just because I don't do much demanding AF doesn't mean I live in a cave and am totally ignorant on the subject. Also, by demanding I was meaning more so action, as I do find good low light AF capabilities useful. I've never had an EM1 and probably never will as the camera has always been overpriced relative to its capabilities. I do own a Canon R and while it is a notch down in AF from the R5/6 it has very good AF capabilities, especially in low light. Every review I've read on the R5/6 and the recent Sony cameras say their AF is as good as anything out there and those 2 makes stand at the front of the pack in regards to AF.

I've not read one review saying the EM1 AF bests the most recent Canon or Sony cameras. If you can point me to one that does, I'd be glad to read it.

-- hide signature --

Jonathan

Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 6,454
Re: For me, and at least some others, ....
1

Memoochi wrote:

DLBlack wrote:

. Also, it will allow more computational photography to improve image quality.

Why does the speed of the sensor have anything to do with computational photography? I would imagine you can do computational photography with a sensor that reads out 1 frame per second.

Yes, but it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.  One of my favorite features of the current OMD generation is HiRes modes where eight (I think) images are taken in rapid order, correlated with the IBIS function, and combined for higher resolution. nteresting by-products are a reduction in noise and improved color.  Faster readout would only improve this functionality.

Curting edge Computational photography algorithms like in an iPhone require a heavy investment in software development. Something non of the camera companies can really afford, without a partnership with a major software firm.

There are a number of counterexamples to your point, including what Olympus has already done in their current generation of cameras, and other companies that are producing very effective raw imaging tools.  I'd love to see something like DxO DeepPrime built into the camera firmware, for example.

 Jeff's gear list:Jeff's gear list
Olympus 45mm F1.2 Pro Olympus PEN E-P5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus OM-D E-M1X Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 150mm 1:2.0 +9 more
Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 6,454
Re: For me, and at least some others, ....
2

jwilliams wrote:

DLBlack wrote:

Faster sensor that a stacked sensor provides if the image processor is powerful and fast enough will improve several things for a still photographer.

One major improvement would be in AF, especially with C-AF and Tracking.

Certianly welcome. I personally don't do much demanding AF work but current m43 AF of most cameras is way behind the market overall. Just using some form of PDAF I think is a big bonus. That has been available in a very limited number of Olympus bodies (which is really a travesty) for years. Maybe this sensor will make PDAF mainstream for m43 bodies (which it has been for all other makes for years).

Also, it will allow more computational photography to improve image quality.

This is probably the biggest possible benefit. I say possible because the manufacturers must put in the work to make use of it and I'm very dubious of that, especially with OMD.

The sensor has the ability for each sensor to be used in phase detection AF and can also provide a depth map.

AF improvements are welcome. If it just gets to where the average camera on the market is, it will be a huge improvement over most m43 cameras now.

Being an BSI with lower number if MP should give better DR and better low light.

It should have some effect but I expect it to be very small.

It will be expensive.

I'm afraid you'll probably be right. I have to wonder who the buyer of cameras with this sensor is. Certainly some die hard fans here, but with the general public I just don't see this making appealing cameras at prices consumers are wiling to pay.

Just look at the price difference between the Sony A7 series and the A1. I will expect the Olympus "wow" camera to cost around $3,000, which is about half the price of a Sony A1.

$3K and m43 just don't go together. If it takes a $3K camera to move m43 forward that's problematic to say the least.

This will leave a lot of room for a lower tier camera with a more tradition sensor and less powerful image processing power.

In other words, a camera that is obsolete (compared to all other makers) the moment it hits the market.

If the new sensor does speed up readout a factor 2x or more, and the computational aspects live up to the promise of Quad Bayer CFA as described above by bobn2, then I'd love to get my hands on one. Combined with the 150-400, it could be an absolutely crazy useful wildlife system.

If wedding photography is your thing, it may be a different story. But I'd humbly suggest that a one-size-fits-all statement is a bit premature.

 Jeff's gear list:Jeff's gear list
Olympus 45mm F1.2 Pro Olympus PEN E-P5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus OM-D E-M1X Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 150mm 1:2.0 +9 more
Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 6,454
Re: Wishful thinking?

FingerPainter wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

It's a BSI sensor so it is going to have a significant improvement in low light noise

I doubt it. BSI won't expose much more of the silicon on pixels as large as those on a 21MP MFT sensor. At the same time, there is a risk that the higher throughput will increase read noise by at least as much as the shot noise decreases. If there is a change in noise performance I expect it to be small, and it might be negative.

- on Olympus bodies at least. Are any Panasonic sensors BSI?

I don't think so. Aren't all their current models based on Sony non-BSI MFT sensors? (I'm not not sure about the oversize sensor in the GH5S.)

It is also a stacked sensor so there will be a very big improvement in rolling shutter effects, if that is of interest for your photography.

I think this is where more noticeable improvements will come from.

As bobn2 mentioned somewhere else on this thread, one of the issues with the current generation of Olympus sensors is a relatively narrow aperture for the individual pixels. In some other threads, folks have estimated the effective f/number of the pixels in the range of 1.3 to 1.4 (if memory serves).  If a BSI configuration can widen the aperature a bit, then there would be an immediate benefit for folks owning the f/1.2 (or faster) lenses.

Time will tell.

 Jeff's gear list:Jeff's gear list
Olympus 45mm F1.2 Pro Olympus PEN E-P5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus OM-D E-M1X Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 150mm 1:2.0 +9 more
FingerPainter Forum Pro • Posts: 10,388
Re: Wishful thinking?
3

Jeff wrote:

FingerPainter wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

It's a BSI sensor so it is going to have a significant improvement in low light noise

I doubt it. BSI won't expose much more of the silicon on pixels as large as those on a 21MP MFT sensor. At the same time, there is a risk that the higher throughput will increase read noise by at least as much as the shot noise decreases. If there is a change in noise performance I expect it to be small, and it might be negative.

- on Olympus bodies at least. Are any Panasonic sensors BSI?

I don't think so. Aren't all their current models based on Sony non-BSI MFT sensors? (I'm not not sure about the oversize sensor in the GH5S.)

It is also a stacked sensor so there will be a very big improvement in rolling shutter effects, if that is of interest for your photography.

I think this is where more noticeable improvements will come from.

As bobn2 mentioned somewhere else on this thread, one of the issues with the current generation of Olympus sensors is a relatively narrow aperture for the individual pixels. In some other threads, folks have estimated the effective f/number of the pixels in the range of 1.3 to 1.4 (if memory serves). If a BSI configuration can widen the aperature a bit, then there would be an immediate benefit for folks owning the f/1.2 (or faster) lenses.

All that would do is bring up performance of wide-open f/1.2 lenses to be in line with any other lens, or with stopped down f/1.2 lenses. That will be nice to have, but I don't see than as a generic "significant improvement in low light noise".

Time will tell.

Grimstod Regular Member • Posts: 401
Re: I M Dumb
1

Bassam Guy wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/0323015965/sony-reveals-21mp-four-thirds-stacked-cmos-sensor-capable-of-120-fps-full-width-readout

Apologies if this has already been posted.

I do not know what advantage stacked sensors provide. A quick googling wasn't much help. Okay, the sensor is turned around and there are no wires in the way.

Better quantum efficiency, faster frame rate, more options as far as video codec etc. smaller thinner chip too. Rob Trek had a video about it here. In great detail.

Grimstod Regular Member • Posts: 401
Re: Implications of Quad Bayer CFA?
1

FingerPainter wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/0323015965/sony-reveals-21mp-four-thirds-stacked-cmos-sensor-capable-of-120-fps-full-width-readout

What are the implication of this sensor coming with a quad Bayer CFA?

Doesn't this result in lower effective resolution of colour stills?

Does it imply the sensor is primarily intended for video-centric cameras?

Long watch but has everything you could want as far as info goes.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 69,811
Re: Implications of Quad Bayer CFA?
3

Grimstod wrote:

FingerPainter wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/0323015965/sony-reveals-21mp-four-thirds-stacked-cmos-sensor-capable-of-120-fps-full-width-readout

What are the implication of this sensor coming with a quad Bayer CFA?

Doesn't this result in lower effective resolution of colour stills?

Does it imply the sensor is primarily intended for video-centric cameras?

Long watch but has everything you could want as far as info goes.

Haven't wasted the time, but his previous videos have been no more informed than stuff you find on this forum, and the 'information' is often speculation.

-- hide signature --

Is it always wrong
for one to have the hots for
Comrade Kim Yo Jong?

Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 6,454
Re: Wishful thinking?
4

FingerPainter wrote:

Jeff wrote:

FingerPainter wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

It's a BSI sensor so it is going to have a significant improvement in low light noise

I doubt it. BSI won't expose much more of the silicon on pixels as large as those on a 21MP MFT sensor. At the same time, there is a risk that the higher throughput will increase read noise by at least as much as the shot noise decreases. If there is a change in noise performance I expect it to be small, and it might be negative.

- on Olympus bodies at least. Are any Panasonic sensors BSI?

I don't think so. Aren't all their current models based on Sony non-BSI MFT sensors? (I'm not not sure about the oversize sensor in the GH5S.)

It is also a stacked sensor so there will be a very big improvement in rolling shutter effects, if that is of interest for your photography.

I think this is where more noticeable improvements will come from.

As bobn2 mentioned somewhere else on this thread, one of the issues with the current generation of Olympus sensors is a relatively narrow aperture for the individual pixels. In some other threads, folks have estimated the effective f/number of the pixels in the range of 1.3 to 1.4 (if memory serves). If a BSI configuration can widen the aperature a bit, then there would be an immediate benefit for folks owning the f/1.2 (or faster) lenses.

All that would do is bring up performance of wide-open f/1.2 lenses to be in line with any other lens, or with stopped down f/1.2 lenses. That will be nice to have, but I don't see than as a generic "significant improvement in low light noise".

Well, for someone like me who actually shoots with those lenses, this would be a welcome improvement. If you don't shoot with those lenses then you may have a diffferent opinion.

Time will tell.

 Jeff's gear list:Jeff's gear list
Olympus 45mm F1.2 Pro Olympus PEN E-P5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus OM-D E-M1X Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 150mm 1:2.0 +9 more
400trix
400trix Senior Member • Posts: 1,050
Re: For me, and at least some others, ....
2

jwilliams wrote:

For me, and at least some others, most of the improvements are meaningless. They're essentially making a 'faster' sensor with little expectation of better IQ (I hope I'm wrong here but see little that makes me think IQ will be much different). Current m43 cameras (and other makes) are fast enough for me and I don't do video. I know I am no longer the target user for m43 (or any other brand/format) camera as these devices now are really video cameras that just happen to take still photos.

I do have to wonder if cameras with this sensor can be commercially successful. With m43's small market share. I'm going to guess that people will be asked to pay more than the cost of many/most APSC and FF cameras on the market now for a smaller sensor camera. Doesn't sound like a great proposition to me. Maybe a hidden benefit will be current 20MP cameras coming down in price as they will be seen as a 1 tier down form the cameras with the new sensor.

The increased speed allows for a lot of interesting capabilities, such as expanding the envelope for HHHR. Better C-AF and subject recognition would be a boon to me, and both could be enhanced with a faster readout speed.

µ4/3 is still (usually) a bargain from a system perspective. Many of those Fuji lenses are expensive, and no one else really supports APS-C as a system.

-- hide signature --

Archer in Boulder
God loves the noise just as much as the signal.

 400trix's gear list:400trix's gear list
Olympus E-M1 III Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 60mm F2.8 Macro Olympus M.Zuiko 300mm F4 IS Pro Olympus 12-45mm F4 Pro +1 more
400trix
400trix Senior Member • Posts: 1,050
Re: For me, and at least some others, ....

Chris R-UK wrote:

It's a BSI sensor so it is going to have a significant improvement in low light noise - on Olympus bodies at least. Are any Panasonic sensors BSI?

It is also a stacked sensor so there will be a very big improvement in rolling shutter effects, if that is of interest for your photography.

BSI will give a minimal improvement, just a small fraction of a stop. There’s a reason that almost no camera companies use BSI in system cameras.

-- hide signature --

Archer in Boulder
God loves the noise just as much as the signal.

 400trix's gear list:400trix's gear list
Olympus E-M1 III Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 60mm F2.8 Macro Olympus M.Zuiko 300mm F4 IS Pro Olympus 12-45mm F4 Pro +1 more
victorav Senior Member • Posts: 1,906
Re: Implications of Quad Bayer CFA?
1

bobn2 wrote:

Grimstod wrote:

FingerPainter wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/0323015965/sony-reveals-21mp-four-thirds-stacked-cmos-sensor-capable-of-120-fps-full-width-readout

What are the implication of this sensor coming with a quad Bayer CFA?

Doesn't this result in lower effective resolution of colour stills?

Does it imply the sensor is primarily intended for video-centric cameras?

Long watch but has everything you could want as far as info goes.

Haven't wasted the time, but his previous videos have been no more informed than stuff you find on this forum, and the 'information' is often speculation.

I watched it, was pretty interesting. Kind of a summary of things mentioned in the forum.

Really no more a waste of time then reading posts here.

Interceptor121 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,904
Re: For me, and at least some others, ....

victorav wrote:

AdamT wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

It's a BSI sensor so it is going to have a significant improvement in low light noise

BSI tends to make more of a difference, the smaller the pixels are so it`ll benefit M43 more than APS or FF but even in 1" sensors , the difference was far from significant, if BSI alone gains the cameras 1/3 of a stop in M43 it`ll be doing OK . it`ll be improvement in other stuff such as pixel wells, microlenses, amplifier circuitry etc which will be where the real gains are

- on Olympus bodies at least. Are any Panasonic sensors BSI?

All the 20Mp M43 sensors are made by Sony, including the ones in panasonics and hopefully will remain so as they tend to have a lower noise floor than panasonic's own (Going by the previous Pan sensors in the 16Mp cams etc)

Panasonic sold their semi conductor business I believe. So unless Sony stops making sensors why would they not use Sony?

Panasonic has a joint venture with Fuji for a new organic sensor with 120 fps and global shutter. It has already been shown on a 8K video monster rig

Those are not consumer level yet that we know of

 Interceptor121's gear list:Interceptor121's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 Panasonic Lumix DC-GH5 II Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Canon EF 8-15mm f/4L Fisheye USM Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 60mm F2.8 Macro +14 more
bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 69,811
Re: Implications of Quad Bayer CFA?
2

victorav wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Grimstod wrote:

FingerPainter wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/0323015965/sony-reveals-21mp-four-thirds-stacked-cmos-sensor-capable-of-120-fps-full-width-readout

What are the implication of this sensor coming with a quad Bayer CFA?

Doesn't this result in lower effective resolution of colour stills?

Does it imply the sensor is primarily intended for video-centric cameras?

Long watch but has everything you could want as far as info goes.

Haven't wasted the time, but his previous videos have been no more informed than stuff you find on this forum, and the 'information' is often speculation.

I watched it, was pretty interesting. Kind of a summary of things mentioned in the forum.

That's kind of what I meant.

Really no more a waste of time then reading posts here.

Except, when you read posts here you know to take a load of them with a pinch of salt.

-- hide signature --

Is it always wrong
for one to have the hots for
Comrade Kim Yo Jong?

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 69,811
Re: For me, and at least some others, ....
7

400trix wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

It's a BSI sensor so it is going to have a significant improvement in low light noise - on Olympus bodies at least. Are any Panasonic sensors BSI?

It is also a stacked sensor so there will be a very big improvement in rolling shutter effects, if that is of interest for your photography.

BSI will give a minimal improvement, just a small fraction of a stop. There’s a reason that almost no camera companies use BSI in system cameras.

You mean, almost no companies like Sony and Nikon?

-- hide signature --

Is it always wrong
for one to have the hots for
Comrade Kim Yo Jong?

Grimstod Regular Member • Posts: 401
Re: Implications of Quad Bayer CFA?

bobn2 wrote:

Grimstod wrote:

FingerPainter wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/0323015965/sony-reveals-21mp-four-thirds-stacked-cmos-sensor-capable-of-120-fps-full-width-readout

What are the implication of this sensor coming with a quad Bayer CFA?

Doesn't this result in lower effective resolution of colour stills?

Does it imply the sensor is primarily intended for video-centric cameras?

Long watch but has everything you could want as far as info goes.

Haven't wasted the time, but his previous videos have been no more informed than stuff you find on this forum, and the 'information' is often speculation.

Then you do not know.

Sergey Borachev Veteran Member • Posts: 5,337
Here's what I know
2

Until an actual M43 product is available with the feature, any tech feature that are in other cameras are of little value. That's happened many times before, when sensors with more than 12MP first appeared (Why would anyone need 16MP?), And then with 20MP, 24 MP (Tiny pixels ruining IQ/DR), PDAF, BSI (Only works for phones and 1 inch cameras), stacked sensors. People argue for years about how much value they are to M43 users, and then as soon as something is in a M43 camera, ... Wow!

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads