I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
Robert Cohen
Robert Cohen Veteran Member • Posts: 4,539
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)
3

A lot depends on what the photos would be used for.  I used my D300 and D700 for many years while shooting for print publications and web use.  Sometimes the photos would be used for large display at shows.  I was able to crop pretty freely with those 12 mp sensors.  Now using my D850 I could crop even more or feel more freedom in using the photos for large prints.  But for a lot of uses a 12 mp sensor is just fine and allows a fair amount of cropping.

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--Bob

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OP bizmord Contributing Member • Posts: 925
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)
1

AwesomeIan wrote:

bizmord wrote:

AwesomeIan wrote:

I would like at a used D810. If you don't mind APS-C you might check out the D500

my friend just picked up a used D810 for $1,000 at just 6k or so actuations. We'll be shooting similar events and would definitely be interesting to compare, quality of photos ... composition obviously will defer based on who is holding that camera.

One thing that will be apparent is the ability to crop into different composition in post. The 36mp sensor will give you a ton of wiggle room to do this. Don't get me wrong, I am always trying to get everything right in camera and never want to toss out pixels. However we don't live in a perfect world and given the subject matter you shared I believe you are probably cropping already. Anyways, my whole point is the 3x increase in pixels will ultimately help your photography.

I hear you, but I also think that D810 will allow less room for error compared to D700. I heard D700 with less MP is a lot more forgiving.

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JustUs7 Senior Member • Posts: 3,413
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)

Robert Cohen wrote:

OK, thanks. I’ve been educated. Which is good.

Aside from white balance, I generally don’t fuss with those settings, reserving that sort of attention to post processing.

Me too. I’d be curious to know if anyone actually uses it.

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Brev00
Brev00 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,545
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)
2

bizmord wrote:

AwesomeIan wrote:

bizmord wrote:

AwesomeIan wrote:

I would like at a used D810. If you don't mind APS-C you might check out the D500

my friend just picked up a used D810 for $1,000 at just 6k or so actuations. We'll be shooting similar events and would definitely be interesting to compare, quality of photos ... composition obviously will defer based on who is holding that camera.

One thing that will be apparent is the ability to crop into different composition in post. The 36mp sensor will give you a ton of wiggle room to do this. Don't get me wrong, I am always trying to get everything right in camera and never want to toss out pixels. However we don't live in a perfect world and given the subject matter you shared I believe you are probably cropping already. Anyways, my whole point is the 3x increase in pixels will ultimately help your photography.

I hear you, but I also think that D810 will allow less room for error compared to D700. I heard D700 with less MP is a lot more forgiving.

What exactly do you need to forgive?  Are all the folks using high mp cameras to good effect at higher skill levels than you?  I doubt it.  In my side by side shooting with the D40 and D500, I have had no more difficulty getting good images with a 21mp sensor than a 6mp sensor.  I think the belief that high mp sensors are tough to deal with is overblown.

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straitouttahell
straitouttahell Contributing Member • Posts: 785
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)
2

Brev00 wrote:

bizmord wrote:

[...] I also think that D810 will allow less room for error compared to D700. I heard D700 with less MP is a lot more forgiving.

What exactly do you need to forgive? [...]

Shaky hands, for example. Or less-than-perfect focus (be it depending on bad technique or miscalibration).
In my experience going from 12Mp to 24Mp and then 36Mp (and back to 24 Mp and transitioning from FX to DX, but that's another story for another day), I have found that what I did at 12 no longer worked at 24 or 36. Had to raise minimum shutter speed by a couple of stops. Had to start calibrating AF fine tune (something I never did back in the day of 12 Mp with little penalty). All this was compensated by a generally better dynamic range, more room for cropping (although I try to avoid this as a habit). And, well, let's face it, if you donwsample a 36 Mp picture down to 12, all of the above issues tend to disappear, while all the advantages remain, with the added benefit of less noise and often better sharpness.
So, all in all, I think it all comes down to how you judge the whole question. In an apples-to-apples comparison (native 12 Mp vs downsampled 12 Mp), more pixels are not any less forgiving, quite the contrary. In a 100% view comparison, what you did wrong at 12 Mp will be roughly 2x wrong at 36 Mp.

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Brev00
Brev00 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,545
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)
1

straitouttahell wrote:

Brev00 wrote:

bizmord wrote:

[...] I also think that D810 will allow less room for error compared to D700. I heard D700 with less MP is a lot more forgiving.

What exactly do you need to forgive? [...]

Shaky hands, for example. Or less-than-perfect focus (be it depending on bad technique or miscalibration).
In my experience going from 12Mp to 24Mp and then 36Mp (and back to 24 Mp and transitioning from FX to DX, but that's another story for another day), I have found that what I did at 12 no longer worked at 24 or 36. Had to raise minimum shutter speed by a couple of stops. Had to start calibrating AF fine tune (something I never did back in the day of 12 Mp with little penalty). All this was compensated by a generally better dynamic range, more room for cropping (although I try to avoid this as a habit). And, well, let's face it, if you donwsample a 36 Mp picture down to 12, all of the above issues tend to disappear, while all the advantages remain, with the added benefit of less noise and often better sharpness.
So, all in all, I think it all comes down to how you judge the whole question. In an apples-to-apples comparison (native 12 Mp vs downsampled 12 Mp), more pixels are not any less forgiving, quite the contrary. In a 100% view comparison, what you did wrong at 12 Mp will be roughly 2x wrong at 36 Mp.

I guess I am fortunate to have pretty steady hands and lenses that are generally spot on right out of the box.  I have gone from 6 with my very first digital cameras--Kodak compacts--to the 12mp D90--to 24mp with the D610.  I have never gone beyond that so maybe that's why my limitations have not become troublesome.

So, I can see how the mp jump can be a problem, but I am not sure it is a universal one.  Bizmord may be able to accomplish the transition better than most.  I tend to think it is good for photographers to see these sorts of issues for themselves.  Being able to get instant feedback is one of the great benefits of digital photography!

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OP bizmord Contributing Member • Posts: 925
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)

straitouttahell wrote:

Brev00 wrote:

bizmord wrote:

[...] I also think that D810 will allow less room for error compared to D700. I heard D700 with less MP is a lot more forgiving.

What exactly do you need to forgive? [...]

Shaky hands, for example. Or less-than-perfect focus (be it depending on bad technique or miscalibration).
In my experience going from 12Mp to 24Mp and then 36Mp (and back to 24 Mp and transitioning from FX to DX, but that's another story for another day), I have found that what I did at 12 no longer worked at 24 or 36. Had to raise minimum shutter speed by a couple of stops. Had to start calibrating AF fine tune (something I never did back in the day of 12 Mp with little penalty). All this was compensated by a generally better dynamic range, more room for cropping (although I try to avoid this as a habit). And, well, let's face it, if you donwsample a 36 Mp picture down to 12, all of the above issues tend to disappear, while all the advantages remain, with the added benefit of less noise and often better sharpness.
So, all in all, I think it all comes down to how you judge the whole question. In an apples-to-apples comparison (native 12 Mp vs downsampled 12 Mp), more pixels are not any less forgiving, quite the contrary. In a 100% view comparison, what you did wrong at 12 Mp will be roughly 2x wrong at 36 Mp.

Interesting post. So are you saying that if a friend of my who just got his D810 is still learning and may have issues perfectly focusing and shaky hands, he is better off shooting at quality NORM which would be around 24mp or so>?

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straitouttahell
straitouttahell Contributing Member • Posts: 785
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)
2

bizmord wrote:

Interesting post. So are you saying that if a friend of my who just got his D810 is still learning and may have issues perfectly focusing and shaky hands, he is better off shooting at quality NORM which would be around 24mp or so>?

Oh no, who am I to give advices
I was just stating what I encountered in my experience. If you zoom in 100%, you'll see camera shake and misfocuses (and lens softness, and chromatic aberrations, etc) more at 36M than 12M. The image is bigger, the mistake is bigger.
What *I* do for myself (far from being an advice, I want to make it clear) is trying to correct the bad habits rather than finding a way to hide them.
And then hide them when I need to
But as a rule of thumb I'd always shoot at the maximum possible quality (NEF 14 bits, or JPG high quality for those who don't want to work on the RAW file). If I have to downsample, I can do it later, unfortunately the other way round is not as easy.

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straitouttahell
straitouttahell Contributing Member • Posts: 785
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)
1

Brev00 wrote:

So, I can see how the mp jump can be a problem, but I am not sure it is a universal one.

Oh, absolutely not.

There's only one thing that's universal, and it's that someday we'll all find out if there really is anything beyond our mortal life.
Everything else comes in many, many different flavors.

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robert1955 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,463
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)

straitouttahell wrote:

bizmord wrote:

Interesting post. So are you saying that if a friend of my who just got his D810 is still learning and may have issues perfectly focusing and shaky hands, he is better off shooting at quality NORM which would be around 24mp or so>?

Oh no, who am I to give advices
I was just stating what I encountered in my experience. If you zoom in 100%, you'll see camera shake and misfocuses (and lens softness, and chromatic aberrations, etc) more at 36M than 12M. The image is bigger, the mistake is bigger.

But if you look at both at the same output size?

What *I* do for myself (far from being an advice, I want to make it clear) is trying to correct the bad habits rather than finding a way to hide them.
And then hide them when I need to
But as a rule of thumb I'd always shoot at the maximum possible quality (NEF 14 bits, or JPG high quality for those who don't want to work on the RAW file). If I have to downsample, I can do it later, unfortunately the other way round is not as easy.

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straitouttahell
straitouttahell Contributing Member • Posts: 785
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)
1

robert1955 wrote:

straitouttahell wrote:

bizmord wrote:

Interesting post. So are you saying that if a friend of my who just got his D810 is still learning and may have issues perfectly focusing and shaky hands, he is better off shooting at quality NORM which would be around 24mp or so>?

Oh no, who am I to give advices
I was just stating what I encountered in my experience. If you zoom in 100%, you'll see camera shake and misfocuses (and lens softness, and chromatic aberrations, etc) more at 36M than 12M. The image is bigger, the mistake is bigger.

But if you look at both at the same output size?

If you look at both at the same output size, you will probably see the same amount of camera shake and misfocus.

But if we go down the "output size" rabbit hole, we may find out that an alarming number of cameras out there could be successfully replaced with smartphones.

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AwesomeIan Senior Member • Posts: 2,309
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)

bizmord wrote:

AwesomeIan wrote:

bizmord wrote:

AwesomeIan wrote:

I would like at a used D810. If you don't mind APS-C you might check out the D500

my friend just picked up a used D810 for $1,000 at just 6k or so actuations. We'll be shooting similar events and would definitely be interesting to compare, quality of photos ... composition obviously will defer based on who is holding that camera.

One thing that will be apparent is the ability to crop into different composition in post. The 36mp sensor will give you a ton of wiggle room to do this. Don't get me wrong, I am always trying to get everything right in camera and never want to toss out pixels. However we don't live in a perfect world and given the subject matter you shared I believe you are probably cropping already. Anyways, my whole point is the 3x increase in pixels will ultimately help your photography.

I hear you, but I also think that D810 will allow less room for error compared to D700. I heard D700 with less MP is a lot more forgiving.

I saw you mentioned you have a 70-200 VR2. The vibration reductions should do just fine on the D810.

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robert1955 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,463
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)

straitouttahell wrote:

robert1955 wrote:

straitouttahell wrote:

bizmord wrote:

Interesting post. So are you saying that if a friend of my who just got his D810 is still learning and may have issues perfectly focusing and shaky hands, he is better off shooting at quality NORM which would be around 24mp or so>?

Oh no, who am I to give advices
I was just stating what I encountered in my experience. If you zoom in 100%, you'll see camera shake and misfocuses (and lens softness, and chromatic aberrations, etc) more at 36M than 12M. The image is bigger, the mistake is bigger.

But if you look at both at the same output size?

If you look at both at the same output size, you will probably see the same amount of camera shake and misfocus.

OK

But if we go down the "output size" rabbit hole, we may find out that an alarming number of cameras out there could be successfully replaced with smartphones.

I'm actually trying to get out of the 100%-viewing of files with different sizes rabbithole

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AwesomeIan Senior Member • Posts: 2,309
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)
1

bizmord wrote:

straitouttahell wrote:

Brev00 wrote:

bizmord wrote:

[...] I also think that D810 will allow less room for error compared to D700. I heard D700 with less MP is a lot more forgiving.

What exactly do you need to forgive? [...]

Shaky hands, for example. Or less-than-perfect focus (be it depending on bad technique or miscalibration).
In my experience going from 12Mp to 24Mp and then 36Mp (and back to 24 Mp and transitioning from FX to DX, but that's another story for another day), I have found that what I did at 12 no longer worked at 24 or 36. Had to raise minimum shutter speed by a couple of stops. Had to start calibrating AF fine tune (something I never did back in the day of 12 Mp with little penalty). All this was compensated by a generally better dynamic range, more room for cropping (although I try to avoid this as a habit). And, well, let's face it, if you donwsample a 36 Mp picture down to 12, all of the above issues tend to disappear, while all the advantages remain, with the added benefit of less noise and often better sharpness.
So, all in all, I think it all comes down to how you judge the whole question. In an apples-to-apples comparison (native 12 Mp vs downsampled 12 Mp), more pixels are not any less forgiving, quite the contrary. In a 100% view comparison, what you did wrong at 12 Mp will be roughly 2x wrong at 36 Mp.

Interesting post. So are you saying that if a friend of my who just got his D810 is still learning and may have issues perfectly focusing and shaky hands, he is better off shooting at quality NORM which would be around 24mp or so>?

I don't believe so. If you friend wanted a 24mp camera he could have bought a D750. Honestly, he is better off working on his technique (i.e. using a tripod, increasing ISO so a faster shutter can be used, keeping body still when pulling the trigger) than handicapping the camera. Just my $0.02. Good luck!

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john isaacs Veteran Member • Posts: 7,112
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)
1

My D750 has had back button focus since I bought it.

But hey; who cares?

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tony field Forum Pro • Posts: 12,528
A d750 might be a viable option
1

bizmord wrote:

My Nikon D700 is pretty much dead. After 260,000 actuations,

I did look into D750, but there is no back button focus. The new D780 has it, but no pop up flash (which I sometimes use if I don't want to attach the big SB-700 flash). Maybe D810, but it's more than twice the price compared to D700.

The d750 certainly has an excellent back button Focus system which I use for every shot. You certainly seem to have a good knack for shooting what looks like off camera flash and produce superb results. Based upon your images that I see there is no specific reason to upgrade your camera since it seems to be doing what you want.

On the other hand if you feel an upgrade as justifiable, certainly a d750 or a d610 are viable options. You certainly have a good selection of lenses  to work with any contemporary Nikon . Here are some of my shots with a d750 and bear in mind that I have an aversion to using Flash except for Studio work. All of these use back button Focus. Focus Precision and tracking is superb. Image quality appears to be excellent

The D 750 is now my high megapixel camera. My other camera is an 18 megapixel full frame fully manual camera

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Charles Darwin: "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
tony

OP bizmord Contributing Member • Posts: 925
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)

john isaacs wrote:

My D750 has had back button focus since I bought it.

But hey; who cares?

no it doesn't. It does not have AF-ON button on top right by the shutter wheel. I know you can program the other button AE-L that is close to the eye piece, but that location is not great for focusing.

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OP bizmord Contributing Member • Posts: 925
Re: A d750 might be a viable option

tony field wrote:

bizmord wrote:

My Nikon D700 is pretty much dead. After 260,000 actuations,

I did look into D750, but there is no back button focus. The new D780 has it, but no pop up flash (which I sometimes use if I don't want to attach the big SB-700 flash). Maybe D810, but it's more than twice the price compared to D700.

The d750 certainly has an excellent back button Focus system which I use for every shot. You certainly seem to have a good knack for shooting what looks like off camera flash and produce superb results. Based upon your images that I see there is no specific reason to upgrade your camera since it seems to be doing what you want.

On the other hand if you feel an upgrade as justifiable, certainly a d750 or a d610 are viable options. You certainly have a good selection of lenses to work with any contemporary Nikon . Here are some of my shots with a d750 and bear in mind that I have an aversion to using Flash except for Studio work. All of these use back button Focus. Focus Precision and tracking is superb. Image quality appears to be excellent

The D 750 is now my high megapixel camera. My other camera is an 18 megapixel full frame fully manual camera



Nice shots.

I actually did not use flash. That ballroom was well lit I guess.

D750 does not have a dedicated AF-ON button on the right side. I know you can program the AE-L button, but that button is not in a very comfortable place for using as a back button focus.

 bizmord's gear list:bizmord's gear list
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john isaacs Veteran Member • Posts: 7,112
Re: I love 15yr old Nikon D700 ... why would I upgrade? (Kids, Sports, etc. shooting)

bizmord wrote:

john isaacs wrote:

My D750 has had back button focus since I bought it.

But hey; who cares?

no it doesn't. It does not have AF-ON button on top right by the shutter wheel. I know you can program the other button AE-L that is close to the eye piece, but that location is not great for focusing.

Yes, it does.

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tony field Forum Pro • Posts: 12,528
Re: A d750 might be a viable option
1

bizmord wrote:

tony field wrote:

bizmord wrote:

My Nikon D700 is pretty much dead. After 260,000 actuations,

I did look into D750, but there is no back button focus. The new D780 has it, but no pop up flash (which I sometimes use if I don't want to attach the big SB-700 flash). Maybe D810, but it's more than twice the price compared to D700.

The d750 certainly has an excellent back button Focus system which I use for every shot. You certainly seem to have a good knack for shooting what looks like off camera flash and produce superb results. Based upon your images that I see there is no specific reason to upgrade your camera since it seems to be doing what you want.

On the other hand if you feel an upgrade as justifiable, certainly a d750 or a d610 are viable options. You certainly have a good selection of lenses to work with any contemporary Nikon . Here are some of my shots with a d750 and bear in mind that I have an aversion to using Flash except for Studio work. All of these use back button Focus. Focus Precision and tracking is superb. Image quality appears to be excellent

The D 750 is now my high megapixel camera. My other camera is an 18 megapixel full frame fully manual camera

Nice shots.

I actually did not use flash. That ballroom was well lit I guess.

D750 does not have a dedicated AF-ON button on the right side. I know you can program the AE-L button, but that button is not in a very comfortable place for using as a back button focus.

I am surprised by this comment. With my particular a hand shape and size I find it is exactly in the right spot when you have the index finger on the shutter release button the thumb Falls in exactly the right place for the lock button. This seems to make it easy to coordinate shutter release and focussing.

On the whole from my experience shooting dance setting the shutter is a one time setting for the entire performance whereas Focus is essentially a continuous operation. YMMV

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Charles Darwin: "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
tony

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