Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
OP Elliern Senior Member • Posts: 1,714
Re: A shot where eagle was not close!

Bill Borne wrote:

Handheld

Great shot!

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Ellie
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“What day is it?” asked Pooh.
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Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 46,753
Re: A shot where eagle was not close!

Elliern wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Handheld

Great shot!

hover mouse on photo to see exif for it

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OP Elliern Senior Member • Posts: 1,714
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise

Bassy wrote:

What kind of results do expert birders get with a bird that size at 200 feet?

my guess is this is about 150 feet away

i dont expect my rx10 mark4 to do any better than this jpeg sooc

young peregrine as got a blackbird for dinner i think the parents caught the blackbird

for him, all i can say is he must be pretty full up at this moment just seems to be looking at it lol

and a crow straight ahead of me as i am standing on this viaduct i can see the sparkle in his eye and grey collar below his beak pretty good for the distance

i

I always enjoy your photos Bassy and the stiores of your peregrines!  Please keep them coming

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Ellie
Enjoy the Moments!
“What day is it?” asked Pooh.
“It’s today,” squeaked Piglet.
“My favorite day,” said Pooh.
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OP Elliern Senior Member • Posts: 1,714
Re: Why you got f/9 and f/8

mackey1001 wrote:

Lots of good discussion in this thread, with a main point being that becoming smarter and better photographer with the tool you have, is often a better solution than 'chasing windmills.'

Even when I wasn't ready with the best setting, even this jpeg from my last Safari is decent even though at f9.0 since it's at lower ISO and the focus is good

SOOC, and cropped adjusted jpg.

-M1

Excellent!  Thanks for sharing your cropped only jpeg. That is always my goal.  
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Ellie
Enjoy the Moments!
“What day is it?” asked Pooh.
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Roxy1945 Senior Member • Posts: 1,630
Re: A shot where eagle was not close!

Bill Borne wrote:

Elliern wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Handheld

Great shot!

hover mouse on photo to see exif for it

Different light different result. Perfect light on this one.

OP Elliern Senior Member • Posts: 1,714
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise

Ontarian wrote:

Hi Ellie.

I think Sherman is dead on with his remarks. My main reason for replying is that I think you would struggle a lot with the 150-600. I borrowed one from a friend and put it on my Canon. I could not get a decent shot with it hand held. It was just too heavy and unbalanced for me. Even at 1/2000 ss blur was quite apparent. Birds on a feeder 40 ft away were worse than with my 70-300 DO. Also Canon a Canon 100-400 and it was manageable but still heavy.

That's why I decided to go to a lighter system than APCs. Either a Sony RX10, Nikon Coolpix 950, Olympus EM5 or Panasonic G9 are my top contenders. Have yet to try any of those yet.

Thanks and I totally agree with you!  The price was great but definitely not for me.

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Ellie
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“What day is it?” asked Pooh.
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“My favorite day,” said Pooh.
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OP Elliern Senior Member • Posts: 1,714
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise

Digital Nigel wrote:

Elliern wrote:

Thanks, Sherm. If I could get a good denoise program for my iPad I would do that. As you know, birds don’t usually let you get real close, at least not large ones. What de-noise program do you recommend? I do have a lap top but it’s very old and not much use. My husband has one that he never uses, so I might be able to take over that one.
I considered getting a long lens for my d5600 such as the Sigma 150-600, which B&H has for $899. But that sucker is huge and heavy!!

I have to decide by tomorrow

I'm not sure about DeNoise programs for an iPad. The ones I use need a powerful PC. For example, I put your image through Topaz DeNoise AI and then brightened it a bit, particularly the shadows:

Topaz DeNoise AI plus some light changes to shadows and highlights

However, this wouldn't be needed if you either shot raw or used the right camera settings

Thank you

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Ellie
Enjoy the Moments!
“What day is it?” asked Pooh.
“It’s today,” squeaked Piglet.
“My favorite day,” said Pooh.
A.A. Milne

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OP Elliern Senior Member • Posts: 1,714
Re: Monopod

sherman_levine wrote:

Consider perhaps this monopod. I have it and use it often. Put a beanbag on it as suggested by Stephen Ingraham and you're all set.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273008890072

Just ordered it, Sherm.  Thanks again and again and repeat😊

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Ellie
Enjoy the Moments!
“What day is it?” asked Pooh.
“It’s today,” squeaked Piglet.
“My favorite day,” said Pooh.
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OP Elliern Senior Member • Posts: 1,714
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise

Michael Fritzen wrote:

AlwynS wrote:

Ellie

Some thoughts:

* This is a bit of an unusual thought, but I have had some surprisingly bad results taking photographs out through an open car window. To such an extent that I now avoid doing that like the plague. This has been without the engine running, In the cases that it happened to me, I was thinking that hot air flowing out the window caused at least some hassles in some way, shape or form. So I do not understand the reason for it, I just know I avoid it as an unnecessary complication.

* While less than ideal, I do not think excessive distance is a major issue here. Looking at the images, "your" Osprey covers about750 pixels vertically. While more is obviously better, this should be enough to give you a reasonable image. Refer this Bald Eagle shot I took recently that has a similar number of pixels vertically on the bird: I am quite happy with the results.

As for the current images:

A month ago in your "Help with settings" thread I suggested that you look at my settings thread because in that thread I went into a lot of detail, not only as regards settings, but also WHY I use those settings. At that time, I commented

For you expedition tomorrow for non-flying birds: as an interim suggestion without the hassle of setting up memory locations etc., I would suggest you try the following settings:

* Mode dial: A (for Aperture mode)

* Aperture set to F4

* Auto ISO, shutter speed faster

* Drive mode Continuous mid

* AFC

* Focus area: Flexible Spot small

* Metering mode: Spot

* Metering point: Focus point link

You used:

* S mode with 1/1250. I do not have a problem with that.

* You then manually set the aperture at f8 and f9 in the two attached images. This killed any possible chance you had of good images for two reasons:

- Firstly, with the RX10's 1" sensor, this aperture equivalent in size to around f22 on a full frame sensor. This means you are miles away from the recognised sharpest aperture for the RX10 IV, i.e. f4, and into pretty serious diffraction territory. This would have degraded the image quality

- Secondly, this forced the camera to use ISO400. While not normally a problem for the RX10 IV, this was unnecessarily high and degraded the image further.

* The ISO issue was compounded by the fact that the images are quite badly underexposed. This was caused to a large degree by the fact that you used Large Spot for metering. Because the Ospreys were far away, this meant the camera was metering almost exclusively on the (BRIGHT!) sky and only in very small part on the (DARK!) bird.

To have the subject Ospreys sufficiently bright, I believe Sherm had to brighten the images by AT LEAST 1 more stop in PP.

All of this led to a "perfect storm": miniscule aperture + High ISO + underexposed + brighten a JPG in post = VERY bad image with lots of noise.

While not my preferred setup for perched birds, if I had to have taken these shots using S mode I would have used the following setup:

* Shutter speed 1/1250 or 1/1000

* Aperture F4

* Focus: Small Flexible Spot

* Metering: Standard Spot (not large). This would have reduced the effect of the much brighter sky somewhat.

* Live view On. THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!! This would have helped you SEE that the bird was badly under-exposed. If you are familiar with the camera and Live View, you would almost certainly have used up to +2EC, based on what you likely would have seen through the viewfinder.

* Auto ISO. I am not going to do the math now, but with the setup I described, the chances are that you would have ended up somewhere around ISO200 for a well exposed subject.

The bottom line is that I consider the results you got to be totally due to "operator error". I am sorry if that seems harsh, but this is my honest opinion. Given your experience with the camera, I suspect my observations are unlikely to change your mind and that you will likely return the camera.

Hoping that, whichever way you decide, you will be comfortable with your equipment going forward.

Hi,

concour with almost everything Alwyn mentioned.

Just some few points I'm doing differently:

1) I'm using the Zebra feature for fast visual analyse of the exposure situation - which I find extremely helpfull in combination with the EC gauge in the given lighting conditions when a darker subject (bird; for which I want to expose for correctly) is in contrast with a large clearer area of the frame. Yes, the zebra CAN be a PITA in the viewfinder view but the EC gauge alone doesn't tell me (enough) about the area/amount of overexposure of the subject surrounding brighter area. With the zebra on it's for me easier to find a balance (BTW also in the opposite case of a bright bird in front of a darker background/tree/leaves).

2) I'm using manual exposure mode with aperture set to f/4 to f/5.6 depending on the desired DOF - for small to medium sized birds usually f/4. The ISO is set to get the exposure times somewhere in the ballpark from 1/640s to 1/2000s, depending on the subject (moving/flying or perched) and the available light. Then I set the exposure time with a look at the metering (provided by the EC gauge) and the zebras - and leave it there until lighting/scene/subject change substancially (a different view; more clouds; different subject).

The EVF with its WYSIWYG in combination with the zebras, always with a look at the metering on the EC gauge has provided me better and more consistent results than previous usage of any of the partly automated exposure modes. This also speeds up the PP as conversion settings found for one shot can be copied simply to the others of the same subject/vantage point.

Thanks for the information.  I almost always shoot in manual or ss with my DSLR.  But I have everything set up.  My tele lens just isn’t quite long enough, which is why I have the Nikon P950 and now the RX10.  For now, I plan to use Alwyn’s settings until I become familiar with all the little nuances.

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Ellie
Enjoy the Moments!
“What day is it?” asked Pooh.
“It’s today,” squeaked Piglet.
“My favorite day,” said Pooh.
A.A. Milne

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Horacecoker Veteran Member • Posts: 3,577
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise
1

AlwynS wrote:

THERE IS NO "ONE SIZE FITS ALL" UNIVERSAL "BEST" SETTING

Actually, there is one universal setting on the RX10iv that is the absolute best for birds and probably everything else and that is F/4. At F/4 you are getting the equivalent DOF as F/11 on FF, why in gods name would you want any more than that? If you shoot at F5.6 on the RX10iv you are getting the same DOF as F16 on FF. Go on the full-frame forums and look at bird images you will never ever find a bird image shot at F/16! Shooting wide open at F/4 on the RX10iv hits the sweet spot for image quality. At F/4 you get the lowest ISO possible or the fastest shutter speed possible or a bit of both. F/4 also gives you the best bokeh and the best separation from bird to fussy backgrounds, it's a no-brainer not to use at ALL THE TIME. Some people on this forum know all this to the point that they have taped the aperture ring up so it never strays from F/4. I know you know all this Alwyn, it just seemed a good opportunity to get it off my chest in this reply to you.

The amount of conflicting advice I've witnessed Elliern receive has made me wince at times. My advice to Elliern is to take Alywn's advice and forget the rest. Alywn knows the camera inside out for bird photography and what's more, regularly posts pictures to prove it. Not that Alywn's out to prove anything as he his very modest.

I think I need to go and lie down now!

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OP Elliern Senior Member • Posts: 1,714
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise
1

AlwynS wrote:

Elliern wrote:

**One thing though, I always use f4 as you suggested and I just looked to be sure it hadn’t moved and is still on f4. So how is it possible for it to show as f8 and f9???

Ellie

As other have since mentioned, Sony uses certain exposure algorithms with different Mode settings. I should have been more clear here. With Shutter speed Mode, the only guaranteed fixed setting is obviously shutter speed. But while you cannot FORCE other settings, you can certainly influence them to the point that you ALMOST have control.

In this case you had S mode, the aperture ring on F4 and ISO on 400. Apparently the algorithms in this case favoured you ISO setting and messed with aperture. As mentioned earlier, S is not a preferred mode for me. In fact, I don't think I have ever used it as I feel it is the worst for control of all settings. But if you specifically wanted to use S mode, I believe you should use it with the aperture ring set to your preferred aperture (f4 unless there is a REALLY compelling reason not to....) and Auto ISO. I did a quick check just now: with these settings, it appears that the algorithm will honour the set aperture until the scene is too bright to maintain F4. Only once it has exhausted the ISO options (down to ISO100 I think) will it start closing the lens.

But really: I strongly believe A mode or Manual give you much better control of exposure.

Thanks, Alwyn!  I plan on just using your settings until I become very accustomed to getting the shots I want.  I think I have everything set and ready to go.  
BUT…for whatever reason the Osprey family has not been here today.  So next best option at hand was to shoot ducks napping in the shade across the pond.  I was happy with the results.  
So many people offered help and suggestions, but as Sherm said it was becoming confusing.  
(In my experience not all cameras work best with a single setting or there would be no reason to have options. Even my 3 Nikon SLRs were slightly different in my final settings.) 
I appreciate all your kindness and help.

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Ellie
Enjoy the Moments!
“What day is it?” asked Pooh.
“It’s today,” squeaked Piglet.
“My favorite day,” said Pooh.
A.A. Milne

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Bassy Forum Pro • Posts: 11,388
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise

one of the young having a cruise around the top of the quarry

the sky was dull and flat looking the bird came out ok just thought i would show you

i dont consider these to be keepers   just saying

OP Elliern Senior Member • Posts: 1,714
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise
  1. Bassy wrote:

one of the young having a cruise around the top of the quarry

the sky was dull and flat looking the bird came out ok just thought i would show you

i dont consider these to be keepers just saying

Thanks for showing those, Bassy You usually post some great BIFs. I always wind up deleting most, and sometimes all in one outing, but when I see that one shot that I really like, it makes it all worth it.  Kinda like fishing for hours and then you get ‘the big one’.  I used to do a lot of salt water fishing when I lived in Florida.  Loved it too.

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Ellie
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“What day is it?” asked Pooh.
“It’s today,” squeaked Piglet.
“My favorite day,” said Pooh.
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Boss of Sony Senior Member • Posts: 2,307
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise
1

Don't blame the camera.

1. You're too far away.

2. Don't use the SOOC jpegs. I rarely, if ever, use the SOOC jpegs from my MFT camera, because they're too noisy, dull, lacking dynamic range, etc. And my MFT camera has a sensor TWICE the size of your RX10. Run the RAW files through DXO Photolab or another decent RAW processor, and you will see a massive difference.

3. If you're going to use the SOOC jpegs, at least turn the sharpness and contrast down, and use a flatter profile.

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AlwynS Veteran Member • Posts: 3,964
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise

Horacecoker wrote:

AlwynS wrote:

THERE IS NO "ONE SIZE FITS ALL" UNIVERSAL "BEST" SETTING

Actually, there is one universal setting on the RX10iv that is the absolute best for birds and probably everything else and that is F/4. At F/4 you are getting the equivalent DOF as F/11 on FF, why in gods name would you want any more than that? If you shoot at F5.6 on the RX10iv you are getting the same DOF as F16 on FF. Go on the full-frame forums and look at bird images you will never ever find a bird image shot at F/16! Shooting wide open at F/4 on the RX10iv hits the sweet spot for image quality. At F/4 you get the lowest ISO possible or the fastest shutter speed possible or a bit of both. F/4 also gives you the best bokeh and the best separation from bird to fussy backgrounds, it's a no-brainer not to use at ALL THE TIME. Some people on this forum know all this to the point that they have taped the aperture ring up so it never strays from F/4. I know you know all this Alwyn, it just seemed a good opportunity to get it off my chest in this reply to you.

The amount of conflicting advice I've witnessed Elliern receive has made me wince at times. My advice to Elliern is to take Alywn's advice and forget the rest. Alywn knows the camera inside out for bird photography and what's more, regularly posts pictures to prove it. Not that Alywn's out to prove anything as he his very modest.

I think I need to go and lie down now!

Thank you very much for your very generous words David. Coming from someone with your known high standards, this is greatly appreciated.

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Alwyn

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AlwynS Veteran Member • Posts: 3,964
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise

Elliern wrote:

AlwynS wrote:

Elliern wrote:

**One thing though, I always use f4 as you suggested and I just looked to be sure it hadn’t moved and is still on f4. So how is it possible for it to show as f8 and f9???

Ellie

As other have since mentioned, Sony uses certain exposure algorithms with different Mode settings. I should have been more clear here. With Shutter speed Mode, the only guaranteed fixed setting is obviously shutter speed. But while you cannot FORCE other settings, you can certainly influence them to the point that you ALMOST have control.

In this case you had S mode, the aperture ring on F4 and ISO on 400. Apparently the algorithms in this case favoured you ISO setting and messed with aperture. As mentioned earlier, S is not a preferred mode for me. In fact, I don't think I have ever used it as I feel it is the worst for control of all settings. But if you specifically wanted to use S mode, I believe you should use it with the aperture ring set to your preferred aperture (f4 unless there is a REALLY compelling reason not to....) and Auto ISO. I did a quick check just now: with these settings, it appears that the algorithm will honour the set aperture until the scene is too bright to maintain F4. Only once it has exhausted the ISO options (down to ISO100 I think) will it start closing the lens.

But really: I strongly believe A mode or Manual give you much better control of exposure.

Thanks, Alwyn! I plan on just using your settings until I become very accustomed to getting the shots I want. I think I have everything set and ready to go.
BUT…for whatever reason the Osprey family has not been here today. So next best option at hand was to shoot ducks napping in the shade across the pond. I was happy with the results.
So many people offered help and suggestions, but as Sherm said it was becoming confusing.
(In my experience not all cameras work best with a single setting or there would be no reason to have options. Even my 3 Nikon SLRs were slightly different in my final settings.)
I appreciate all your kindness and help.

Ellie, I am really rooting for you. Good luck with the simple approach and building on that. I truly hope it works out for you.

As further encouragement: a few shots from our townhouse complex gardens the past couple of days. Nothing fancy or exotic, for me they are just... pretty. And I like pretty.

Yes, I do realise I clipped its wing: DOH!

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Alwyn

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Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 46,753
Re: A shot where eagle was not close!

Roxy1945 wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Elliern wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Handheld

Great shot!

hover mouse on photo to see exif for it

Different light different result. Perfect light on this one.

Well the settings should stay the same!

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Roxy1945 Senior Member • Posts: 1,630
Re: A shot where eagle was not close!

Bill Borne wrote:

Roxy1945 wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Elliern wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Handheld

Great shot!

hover mouse on photo to see exif for it

Different light different result. Perfect light on this one.

Well the settings should stay the same!

These same settings with the same  subject in a different light will give a different result and not a good one many times so you can't compare this to how Ellie's image turned out even if she had used the same settings.

Bassy Forum Pro • Posts: 11,388
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise

fishing you never know what will bite your hook do you because you cant see them lol

birds are a different mater you can see them but can your camera s focus point hook onto them

keep trying and like david said just stick to alwyns settings

and as most people here know i am a firm believer at sticking to F4 all the time on the rx10 one setting less to worry about and yes my aperture ring is stuck in position at F4 with black tape

these two are not sitting on the fence trying to decide which camera to buy lol

all they are thinking about is when is mum coming back from the super market in the sky with dinner, one thing for sure it will not be from the freezer section they like fresh meat caught on the day mostly pigeon pie

the picture below is not from the rx10 mark4 it is from my sony A1 jpeg sooc and cropped

Horacecoker Veteran Member • Posts: 3,577
Re: Sooc shots of Osprey. Not sharp, Lots of noise

Bassy wrote:

fishing you never know what will bite your hook do you because you cant see them lol

birds are a different mater you can see them but can your camera s focus point hook onto them

keep trying and like david said just stick to alwyns settings

and as most people here know i am a firm believer at sticking to F4 all the time on the rx10 one setting less to worry about and yes my aperture ring is stuck in position at F4 with black tape

these two are not sitting on the fence trying to decide which camera to buy lol

I like that one! 

all they are thinking about is when is mum coming back from the super market in the sky with dinner, one thing for sure it will not be from the freezer section they like fresh meat caught on the day mostly pigeon pie

the picture below is not from the rx10 mark4 it is from my sony A1 jpeg sooc and cropped

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