S5 or S1

Started 3 months ago | Questions
jalywol
jalywol Forum Pro • Posts: 11,120
Re: The side hinged rear LCD debacle

I find this discussion interesting.  Not so much for the side hinge debate, but for the things that end up being "make or break" for people deciding to buy a camera or not.

Hinging, for me, is neither here nor there.  I have a couple of things that matter so much more for me in terms of being able to use the camera, that what kind of rear articulation it has falls to way lower on the list, and, in fact, would not rule out a camera that got everything else before it on my "needs" list right.

Indeed, I definitely prefer the tilt-out screen to an FAS.  My A7, GX9, and something else I have used in past all had the tilt out, and I noticeably preferred that when using those bodies.  I found I used the screen more, actually, than I would on FAS bodies (which I used the EVF more on, instead).  However, a MUCH bigger deal to me is having an EVF that I am comfortable with.  Doesn't have to be gigantic, just needs to not give me a headache and not have coke-bottle-bottom optics in front of it (the GH3 was a prime example of that, and I had one for a VERY short time because of it).  Similarly, I never bought a GX85 because of the EVF optical distortions.  The GX9, at least the one I have, does not have that issue.  It still has a smaller EVF screen, but I can deal with that since the lens in front of it is undistorted.

So, for me, first, if a camera is in the weight range I am comfortable with, and has a grip I can get my hand around, I can go further with considering it.  If not, no matter what else is going for it, it's not going to work for me, so it goes off the list.

Then, I look at the other ergos...do the EVF and rear screen give me a headache, or are they fine (oddly enough this is so variable....I never know until I work with the camera for a half hour or so).

After that, the big thing is: Does it get AWB "right", and how is its native color output.  Much like each film manufacturer, back in the day, had a color signature to their products, each camera manufacturer has distinct color preferences that they impart to their native profiles, and it can be a beast to correct them in PP, if you don't care for them.  I learned the hard way that whatever Sony is doing in their color science, it does not work for what I shoot, and I would be best served by not using their cameras.  Similarly, Nikon's output is closer to what I prefer, and Canon's tends to be warmer than I like; not bad, just not what I prefer to work with.  The Panasonic colors, in the S5, are absolutely just right; they match what I am seeing around me, and when they are not just right, I find them easy to correct.

I think it would be interesting to have people make an algorithm or flow chart of their preferences, in order of importance, in their camera buying decisions, and to compare them.  I wonder where the screen type would come in after tallying all of them up?

-J

Off The Mark Veteran Member • Posts: 5,104
Re: The side hinged rear LCD debacle

jalywol wrote:

I think it would be interesting to have people make an algorithm or flow chart of their preferences, in order of importance, in their camera buying decisions, and to compare them. I wonder where the screen type would come in after tallying all of them up?

-J

Yes, it would be interesting.

The only major sticking point would be in certain situations one might find something is NECESSARY while in other situations, not.

For instance: I just bought an Olympus E-M1 MK II (used) despite having two Panasonic full frame bodies (both an S1 and an S5) as well as three Sony aps-c cameras.

So why an E-Mi MK II since it is a camera that is a bit older and isn't necessarily cheap?

Because it is for my son, who WOULD want a flip-out screen for vlogging / selfies (ruling out my Sony aps-c cameras), and would want great stabilization (again, ruling out my sony aps-c cameras).

It has COMPETENT AF-C, so it beats out Panasonic m43 bodies (although the AF-C is not as good as that on Sony aps-c bodies).

And it gets great colors in video.

So, effectively that E-M1 MK II is gonna "replace" my three Sony cameras, but wouldn't be a replacement for my full frame S-series bodies.

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Greg Ohio Regular Member • Posts: 175
Re: The lcd hinge - a personal explanation

Off The Mark wrote:

on a motorized gimbal (as the roll motor could block view of a tilting screen) and again, due to the weight and size of the S1, not something one would really want to do

The S1H is the same size and weight as the S1, and is very much used for pro video, being Netflix certified. I'm sure much of that's on a gimbal, as that's the reason for the existence of large gimbals like the Zhiyun Crane 3S. An S5 or similar fit on a Weebill S.

Yes, I certainly prefer the weight of the Weebill/S5 combo, but some applications demand more than that.

MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 43,189
We need choice
1

georgehudetz wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

georgehudetz wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Since cameras that are larger really need to use the evf more and I tend to use it. My style rarely requires working from the lcd. Therefore fooling around with swivel-tilt-swivel-it back again really annoys me.

If you rarely use the LCD, then on the S5 you can stow it with the screen facing in. Now it's protected and never comes on, helping with battery life. But, when you want to use it, now it's just a single 180 degree rotation to pull it out.

For me the only time I use the LCD is when it's on a tripod. So, regardless of the orientation of the camera, I just flip out the screen and, if I'm in landscape orientation, rotate it a little so it's pointing up at me, and I'm good to go. I'm still getting used to the S5, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think I'll find this easier than the S1R's screen as now I don't have to find that little slider switch if I want to shoot in portrait orientation.

As long as we have a choice.

A deeper appreciation of what motivates me - it is not a casual dislike.

I have always switched off my auto-playback (as well as all sounds). I don’t really wish to draw attention to myself as I like “normal-look” portraits that are not posed and it is always better when your subjects “forget” that you have a camera and are using it.

Therefore I use playback on-demand rather than on-auto. Furthermore since Panasonic’s excellent touch screen interface then why not use this valuable tool?

Also I have always had my lcd screens face outwards and never really had a screen damage issue. With respect I wonder just how rough with your gear we need to be to envisage a screen damage enough that we need to always fold our lcd inwards.

Therefore for on demand playback as a serious review exercise I need it outwards 100%. Otherwise it is a series of fold out, twist, fold back in again, repeat …. Just in case the lcd might get damaged.

The other reason is that Panasonic provides a happy little extra for MF purposes. Mostly with legacy MF lenses. Screen magnified to check focus, soft press - the full screen appears to check composition, thumb dab anywhere on the lcd and the magnification returns to re-check focus.

Ok - now there is a case for leaving the lcd forever facing outwards, but wait ….now we need a sudden tilt of the lcd of an overhead or low level shot. Now it is fold out, twist and adjust tilt, and capture - then reverse the procedure. A simple tilt works much better, with little delay and almost part of the auto-thought process. …. And I am not going to walk about like a dork with my lcd hanging and draw attention to me photographic activities.

I don’t ever “do video”.

There are different strokes for different photographers - the side hinge lcd drive lcd drives me to insanity if I need to use the lcd in a stop-start-stop manner.

But I can understand why some relish the side hinged lcd, but I avoid such cameras if I can.

I did not buy another Canon or Olympus camera body after they made side hinged lcd a standard fitting across the range. I have not gone back to Canon since the RF mount for that same reason. The Sony A7c interested me until I quickly found that it had a side hinged lcd. I also gave the S5 a miss for the same reason and if the almost inevitable SX1 (RF-Style body) has a side hinged lcd I will not be interested and my S1 can be made to last almost forever.

But I am sure that all these companies manage fine without my business and are not in the least perturbed by my comments.

Thanks for the added thoughts, Tom. I do appreciate reading them.

As a side note, I recently spent a weekend hunting wildflowers in Colorado. Over two days, I was on the trail for, I think, 14 hours, with the S5. Rear screen was in the "stowed" position the entire time. Never used a tripod, and thus never used the rear screen. I was able to shoot 840 images on one battery - and that's a total of 1680 files since I shoot raw + JPEG. So, another advantage of stowing the screen.

Yes you can simply turn off the screen if you want, but it's nice to just flip it out to turn it on, as opposed to fiddling with a tiny button with tri-state logic.

I do agree with your comments about keeping the camera quiet, as well as the likelihood of damaging an exposed screen.

Different use purposes tend to favour one type or another that is why we have a 40/40 split and 20% don’t care either way.

So we really need some choice in screen types but some manufacturers only make one type of screen hinged lcd now.  Canon and Olympus are evidence of side hinge or lump it whilst Nikon and Sony until very recently were tilt  and you had better love it.

I have pointed out previously that tilt only did not seem to have any impact on Nikon or. Sony sales but we could have said the same thing about Canon and side hinge.  Panasonic has opted for a bob each-way and I appreciate this.  Adopting side hinged LCD and a different battery format were two of the ancillary reasons why it was easy for me to stop buying Canon dslr bodies.

I am glad that side hinged lcd camera  bodies exist for those that find them best suited for their purpose.

But perhaps the elephant in the room is why don’t manufacturers make a mount on the back of their camera bodies that will accept either a side hinge mechanism or a tilt  mechanism - then “everybody happy”.  Then cameras might be sold with a dummy plain back (only evf) and the user choice of hinged lcd (or perhaps both for those that would otherwise never be satisfied).  

Ricoh showed with their GXR that a lego-block like camera system could be made rigid, tight, and very reliable. In fact if they hid the demount switch most would think they were all separate cameras - the build was such high-quality.

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Tom Caldwell

MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 43,189
A question of sensible balance

Years ago - many years ago - a neighbour was admiring my then 5D dslr and I let her try it.

She held it up in front of her face then politely asked with all seriousness “how do you switch the screen (lcd) on so that I can take a picture”. Of course everybody in the room laughed politely and she was told that she had to put her eye to the ovf *.

How much things were (and remain) defined by the use of the compact camera cannot be determined. The same goes for mobile  phone cameras - which hardly existed at the time.

Even today on the M4/3 forum many will post that they would rather have a tilt lcd than an evf shows that the lcd as a viewfinder is indeed still popular and seemingly a natural way to do things.

* this of course was funny at the time but the dslr “invention”of live view made it serious business.

Add that fully enclosed loupes for dslr bodies that had live view became a sort of must have.  Great big bulky items added to a great big bulky body.  One might wonder how these users manage a reasonably large telephoto while gazing through their loupe.

I think that the reality is that the lcd gets used for framing and focus checking much more than simply for special purpose captures.

I must also comment on the number of those that say a small camera body is “unbalanced” with a large lens.  How can any camera body be unbalanced with any large lens if the lens is supported by the left hand and the eye is at the evf?  Such a camera held in front of a face whilst using the lcd (of any type) does indeed risk being unbalanced.

Therefore any sort of articulation is really for emergency purposes and special purpose shots where use of an evf is not physically possible or practical.

Others will obviously differ, but that might say a quite lot about just why the side hinge lcd is popular.

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Tom Caldwell

MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 43,189
Re: The lcd hinge - a personal explanation
1

Archiver wrote:

Off The Mark wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

I don’t ever “do video”.

I know you don't.

But just to put additional emphasis on your point (as someone who does "do video"), the fully articulating screen is only really helpful in LIMITED instances as far as I can think of, such as shooting a vlog / selfie (not something one would really want to do with an S1-series of cameras anyway), or when on a motorized gimbal (as the roll motor could block view of a tilting screen) and again, due to the weight and size of the S1, not something one would really want to do (don't ask me how I know), and I guess if you were going to be holding the camera overhead and needed the screen to face down further than the screen on the S1 / S1R can tilt downward.

As someone who shoots video for a living and regularly conducts interviews, a fully articulating screen is essential. Even the S1's solution of having the screen tilt to the right won't help if you have the place the camera on the right of the subject. Many times, I don't have the luxury of repositioning a subject or camera in a different spot, I have to go with what is available. Secondly, it's useful to have the subject positioned on the left or right of the image to give visual variety across multiple interviews.

While I could use an external monitor, that adds what is often unnecessary and cumbersome weight, extra batteries and cables, etc. This is one reason why I chose the S5 over the S1, another being the huge price jump to the S1H.

Yes this is why we need both types (or better) a mount system that takes different screen hinge types.

Furthermore the manufacturers see more room to refine video attributes to sell future gear than there is room to advance still shooting. So they are quite happy to make their gear more attractive for video purposes.

But in doing so they risk alienating their purely stills market who will find less and less reason to update their current camera bodies.

That is about where I personally am today.

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Tom Caldwell

Travis Butler
Travis Butler Senior Member • Posts: 1,623
What Makes Ergonomics - Z5 and S5?

jalywol wrote:

I find this discussion interesting. Not so much for the side hinge debate, but for the things that end up being "make or break" for people deciding to buy a camera or not.

<snip>

So, for me, first, if a camera is in the weight range I am comfortable with, and has a grip I can get my hand around, I can go further with considering it. If not, no matter what else is going for it, it's not going to work for me, so it goes off the list.

So much this.

I've been vaguely interested in adding a FF option to my M4/3 kit, but the limiting factor has always been a combination of price (at the moment, FF is more of a casual interest that doesn't justify spending more than $1000-1500 USD) and ergonomics (past a certain IQ threshold, how comfortably a camera shoots is far more important to me than getting the highest IQ; I know from sad experience that if I don't enjoy taking pics with the camera, I'm not going to use it).

The Nikon Z5 looked like a promising choice on paper, and when it dropped to around $1K USD I was looking very seriously at it. But I wanted to try before I bought, and thank goodness for LensRentals; a week's rental convinced me that the ergonomic hurdle was too high for me. (I'd played with one briefly in the local photo store and had trouble with some of the control positions, but I was hoping practice would render them more comfortable; unfortunately, it didn't work. The body was large and heavy enough that I could not both control the body and reach several major controls without painful finger stretches; the grip was large enough that I was feeling muscle strain after carrying it for more than a half-hour or so.)

I also had a chance to play with a S5 at a different store when I was out of town, and the control layout felt much more natural; unfortunately, the Z5 experience has me a bit wary, because the S5 is pretty close to the Z5 in bulk/weight. (Admittedly the point is moot at the moment, because the S5 is at least $400-500 more than I can really afford and $800-900 more than I want to spend.)

What puzzles me the most is the people who laud the shooting experience of the Z5, and the ones who say the S5 is bordering on 'too small'. The Z5 was absolutely too big for my hands; the S5 looks like it'll be better because the controls are closer to my fingers' reach zone, but it still seems to be a large and heavy camera. (For reference, the E-M1 Mk II fits my hand pretty comfortably, but is still a little heavy to carry for more than a couple of hours; I use a wrist strap instead of a neck strap.)

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Off The Mark Veteran Member • Posts: 5,104
Re: What Makes Ergonomics - Z5 and S5?

Travis Butler wrote:

What puzzles me the most is the people who laud the shooting experience of the Z5, and the ones who say the S5 is bordering on 'too small'. The Z5 was absolutely too big for my hands; the S5 looks like it'll be better because the controls are closer to my fingers' reach zone, but it still seems to be a large and heavy camera. (For reference, the E-M1 Mk II fits my hand pretty comfortably, but is still a little heavy to carry for more than a couple of hours; I use a wrist strap instead of a neck strap.)

I just got an E-M1 MK II about a month or so ago, and it is one of the most enjoyable cameras to use.

As an aside, I always find it funny when people complain about the E-M1 MK II being too big or too heavy.

Which kind of goes to show you what shooting with a Panasonic S-series body does to one. I guess I have become acclimated to the large size of the S bodies and so when i got my E-M1 MK II I thought it was TINY (and it is small if you are using the kit lenses on it like I am).

Sooo... this is a long about way of saying that if you prefer the E-M5 or E-M10 series for SIZE compared to the E-M1 series, then I don't know how well you are going to get along with an S5. Admittedly I only have large lenses on mine (the 24-105 f/4 and a Canon EF 16-35 f/4 L mounted on an MC-21 adapter). But even with my significantly smaller vintage Minolta MD 50mm f/2 the camera is still not nearly as ergonomically friendly as the E-M1 MK II

Anyway, just my two cents...

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jalywol
jalywol Forum Pro • Posts: 11,120
Re: What Makes Ergonomics - Z5 and S5?
1

Travis Butler wrote:

jalywol wrote:

I find this discussion interesting. Not so much for the side hinge debate, but for the things that end up being "make or break" for people deciding to buy a camera or not.

<snip>

So, for me, first, if a camera is in the weight range I am comfortable with, and has a grip I can get my hand around, I can go further with considering it. If not, no matter what else is going for it, it's not going to work for me, so it goes off the list.

So much this.

I've been vaguely interested in adding a FF option to my M4/3 kit, but the limiting factor has always been a combination of price (at the moment, FF is more of a casual interest that doesn't justify spending more than $1000-1500 USD) and ergonomics (past a certain IQ threshold, how comfortably a camera shoots is far more important to me than getting the highest IQ; I know from sad experience that if I don't enjoy taking pics with the camera, I'm not going to use it).

The Nikon Z5 looked like a promising choice on paper, and when it dropped to around $1K USD I was looking very seriously at it. But I wanted to try before I bought, and thank goodness for LensRentals; a week's rental convinced me that the ergonomic hurdle was too high for me. (I'd played with one briefly in the local photo store and had trouble with some of the control positions, but I was hoping practice would render them more comfortable; unfortunately, it didn't work. The body was large and heavy enough that I could not both control the body and reach several major controls without painful finger stretches; the grip was large enough that I was feeling muscle strain after carrying it for more than a half-hour or so.)

I also had a chance to play with a S5 at a different store when I was out of town, and the control layout felt much more natural; unfortunately, the Z5 experience has me a bit wary, because the S5 is pretty close to the Z5 in bulk/weight. (Admittedly the point is moot at the moment, because the S5 is at least $400-500 more than I can really afford and $800-900 more than I want to spend.)

I knew right away in the store the Nikon Z5 grip wasn't going to work for me. However, I took a chance on the S5, even though I thought the grip might be just a little too deep, because everything else on the camera fell into place when I held it in the store.

The first day I had it, I thought I was going to have to return it. I use a wrist strap, too, so I was carrying the thing around just with my right hand, and the grip depth was giving me wrist and shoulder pain. This was not making me happy, as I REALLY liked the camera and its output.

So, over the next couple of days, I did a little experimentation, and changed over to an Op-Tech sling strap, (which I also use for my M43 bodies when I have the PL 100-400mm lens on them, to cut the wrist strain from that weight combination). I also went to holding the S5 lens in my left hand when shooting, so the weight of the system is evenly divided between my left and right hands, and not gripping the right side grip tightly as a result. That worked. But, it took reprogramming my brain, as I am so used to, with my M43, wrist strap and right hand only holding, that I was using a death grip on the S5 to hold it the same way .

Now, with the sling on it, I curl my fingers under the front of the grip, but instead of reaching my thumb all the way around back, I rest it on the strap where it mounts to the camera, while also holding the lens in my left hand. It's very comfortable that way, and nice and stable to shoot, too. Plus, no worries about losing a grip on it, since the sling strap is there backing it up.

In any case, here's the sling strap I use https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006W1J3OK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You may want to rent the S5 and give it a shot. It's really a super nice camera, with lovely output.

-J

Archiver Veteran Member • Posts: 3,719
Re: What Makes Ergonomics - Z5 and S5?
1

Off The Mark wrote:

Travis Butler wrote:

What puzzles me the most is the people who laud the shooting experience of the Z5, and the ones who say the S5 is bordering on 'too small'. The Z5 was absolutely too big for my hands; the S5 looks like it'll be better because the controls are closer to my fingers' reach zone, but it still seems to be a large and heavy camera. (For reference, the E-M1 Mk II fits my hand pretty comfortably, but is still a little heavy to carry for more than a couple of hours; I use a wrist strap instead of a neck strap.)

I just got an E-M1 MK II about a month or so ago, and it is one of the most enjoyable cameras to use.

As an aside, I always find it funny when people complain about the E-M1 MK II being too big or too heavy.

Which kind of goes to show you what shooting with a Panasonic S-series body does to one. I guess I have become acclimated to the large size of the S bodies and so when i got my E-M1 MK II I thought it was TINY (and it is small if you are using the kit lenses on it like I am).

Sooo... this is a long about way of saying that if you prefer the E-M5 or E-M10 series for SIZE compared to the E-M1 series, then I don't know how well you are going to get along with an S5. Admittedly I only have large lenses on mine (the 24-105 f/4 and a Canon EF 16-35 f/4 L mounted on an MC-21 adapter). But even with my significantly smaller vintage Minolta MD 50mm f/2 the camera is still not nearly as ergonomically friendly as the E-M1 MK II

Moving offtopic, but hey, when does a thread really stay on topic:

The E-M5 felt pretty good at first, but was made much better by adding the grip, and sometimes the battery grip. I much prefer it with the grip, and will get a grip for my Panasonic GX85 when I get around to it.

The S5 is around the same size and weight as the G9, but the grip of the G9 is noticeably larger, fitting into the lower palm better, and is consequently more comfortable for me to hold. I get the sense of squeezing the S5 grip more than the G9.

I, too, put larger lenses on the S5 with the Sigma MC21, including the Sigma 24-105, 18-35, and 35L (worst autofocus ever). The grip will be better with those lenses once I get the battery grip. Just waiting for a third party like Neewer to make a much less expensive version.

Funny that you also use Minolta lenses, as I'm using the MC Rokkor PG 50mm f1.4 and MD W Rokkor 35mm f2.8 on the S5. The flange distance means that the adapter is about an inch long, so what is a fairly compact setup on a Minolta SLR is not with the S5. Because the adapter is light, the camera becomes front heavy even with a 50mm prime. When my Panasonic 50mm f1.8 arrives, I suspect it will feel much better balanced. FWIW, the smaller the lens, the better, and I prefer the handling and feel of rangefinder lenses on the S5. Much thinner adapter, and much smaller lenses. Even the Zeiss Distagon 35 ZM on the S5 feels pretty good.

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Jsake
Jsake Regular Member • Posts: 188
Re: What Makes Ergonomics - Z5 and S5?
1

Travis Butler wrote:

jalywol wrote:

I find this discussion interesting. Not so much for the side hinge debate, but for the things that end up being "make or break" for people deciding to buy a camera or not.

<snip>

So, for me, first, if a camera is in the weight range I am comfortable with, and has a grip I can get my hand around, I can go further with considering it. If not, no matter what else is going for it, it's not going to work for me, so it goes off the list.

So much this.

I've been vaguely interested in adding a FF option to my M4/3 kit, but the limiting factor has always been a combination of price (at the moment, FF is more of a casual interest that doesn't justify spending more than $1000-1500 USD) and ergonomics (past a certain IQ threshold, how comfortably a camera shoots is far more important to me than getting the highest IQ; I know from sad experience that if I don't enjoy taking pics with the camera, I'm not going to use it).

The Nikon Z5 looked like a promising choice on paper, and when it dropped to around $1K USD I was looking very seriously at it. But I wanted to try before I bought, and thank goodness for LensRentals; a week's rental convinced me that the ergonomic hurdle was too high for me. (I'd played with one briefly in the local photo store and had trouble with some of the control positions, but I was hoping practice would render them more comfortable; unfortunately, it didn't work. The body was large and heavy enough that I could not both control the body and reach several major controls without painful finger stretches; the grip was large enough that I was feeling muscle strain after carrying it for more than a half-hour or so.)

I also had a chance to play with a S5 at a different store when I was out of town, and the control layout felt much more natural; unfortunately, the Z5 experience has me a bit wary, because the S5 is pretty close to the Z5 in bulk/weight. (Admittedly the point is moot at the moment, because the S5 is at least $400-500 more than I can really afford and $800-900 more than I want to spend.)

What puzzles me the most is the people who laud the shooting experience of the Z5, and the ones who say the S5 is bordering on 'too small'. The Z5 was absolutely too big for my hands; the S5 looks like it'll be better because the controls are closer to my fingers' reach zone, but it still seems to be a large and heavy camera. (For reference, the E-M1 Mk II fits my hand pretty comfortably, but is still a little heavy to carry for more than a couple of hours; I use a wrist strap instead of a neck strap.)

My top rated cameras so far of all the ones I've used in terms of size, wieight, and ergonomics are the Panasonic G80 and the Canon RP. The S5 grip is "ok", its not the most comfortable but it mostly does the job, and it has a stupid programmable button where my fingers go (which has to be permanently disabled). I realise ergos/size/weight can be all highly subjective, but I wouldn't have minded if the S5 was just a tiny bit bigger, if only just to make the grip a bit better.

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