S5 or S1

Started 4 months ago | Questions
reinhard becker Regular Member • Posts: 145
Re: S5 or S1 or SX5?
1

Tom Caldwell wrote:

reinhard becker wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

.

Price? I would pay for the camera that best suited my purpose.

Otherwise - not a lot of difference that I could see.

Hello Tom,

I would add 2 technical specs I‘m missing on my S1R and used to have from my Olympus!

- S5 offers LiveComposite which is a great tool for some special scenarios (but not everybody needs it)

- S5 offers 8sec exposure time for HighRes shots, with S1/S1R you only get 1sec

on the other side the S5 has a different kind of sensor dust cleaning function, but I can not tell if there is a practical difference. With my S1R I have after one year no problems with sensor dust.

Thanks for your advice Reinhard,

I don’t know the S5 as I only have the S1 which I am quite happy with. So I have a bit of a guess based on S5 specifications and comments by owners on the forum.

The S5 seems to have been well received and popular. But I would never own one because of its side hinged lcd. It is actually a growing situation where once cameras have all become “pretty good” that buy decisions are becoming based on individual “features” that we either like or dislike.

Therefore when I see a new camera body released I immediately look to see what type of lcd hinge it has - if it is side-hinged I simply switch off - seems easier than going through attribute by attribute to try and weigh up if it might otherwise interest me.

I did buy a G9 - wonderful camera - has a side hinged lcd - I really wanted a GX9 type, but was an early adopter of the G9 and the GX9 was released about one month after the G9 was safely in my hands. I have no regrets and simply “pretend” that the G9 has a fixed lcd …. I will never do this again.

Therefore I would hardly be tempted to go for a S5 and find that Panasonic releases their Flat Top RF-Style SX5 with tilt lcd soon enough. I can wait - forever if necessary - nothing wrong with the “tilting” S1.

That is a very interesting statement! When I decided to go into FF again last year I was checking all systems. The LCD was then one of the major points against Sony and Nikon. They offer only the simple tilt screen and that is a show stopper for me, because I‘m taking a lot of vertical pictures from tripod and this type of screen is a pain in the ass if you have only such option with your LCD. The S1/S1R screen is a good option between both worlds. On the other side I‘m also taking astrophotos on top of my telescope, where the side hinged LCD is perfect, because you have to look sometimes from very different angles. Therefore the LCD  from the S5 (as additional body to my S1R) would be a welcome change, also in combination with the smaller body and lower weight.

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Reinhard
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Daft Punk Contributing Member • Posts: 900
Re: S5 or S1
2

You should be prepared for realising that often ( when taking images in good light ) you will not see any major improvement in image quality over your G9 when looking at images at normal viewing distance.

Off The Mark Veteran Member • Posts: 5,289
Re: S5 or S1
2

@Daft Punk makes an excellent point when he states:

You should be prepared for realising that often ( when taking images in good light ) you will not see any major improvement in image quality over your G9 when looking at images at normal viewing distance.

I have delivered thousands of images to paying clients over the last six years or so and have used aps-c cameras with phase detect pixels (my Sony a6x00 series cameras) as well as Panasonic L series cameras and my old Nikon D750 and old Nikon aps-c D7000 camera. None of my clients have ever complained about the images.

In fact, the images that I have shot that made it as two-page spread in magazines for advertisements were shot on my aps-c Sony a6500 (with on-sensor phase-detect pixels).

The only issue I might take with Daft Punk's assessment above is that - for MY style of shooting - during bright daylight and high-contrast scenes, I can see a noticeable difference in dynamic range compared to shooting on my m43 Olympus E-M1 MK II.

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Jamajuel Regular Member • Posts: 451
Re: S5 or S1
1

Daft Punk wrote:

You should be prepared for realising that often ( when taking images in good light ) you will not see any major improvement in image quality over your G9 when looking at images at normal viewing distance.

As someone who's come from M43, I just don't experienced it like that. Yes, if light is good, then you get images that are indistinguishable and good from both (unless you need very shallow DOF).

But from my experience, the average IQ on the S series is significantly higher than M43. By "average" I mean: compare any two reasonably large sets of >100 images taken in one shooting. By "significant" I mean that I have no trouble picking out FF vs M43 immediately in such comparisons, without fail.

(PS: doesn't mean I don't like M43. I still kept many M43 lenses and my old GX7 and if they actually bring out a few new bodies with a new sensor, I would love to get another small compact body.)

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vincentocat Regular Member • Posts: 260
Re: S5 or S1
2

Jamajuel wrote:

Daft Punk wrote:

You should be prepared for realising that often ( when taking images in good light ) you will not see any major improvement in image quality over your G9 when looking at images at normal viewing distance.

As someone who's come from M43, I just don't experienced it like that. Yes, if light is good, then you get images that are indistinguishable and good from both (unless you need very shallow DOF).

But from my experience, the average IQ on the S series is significantly higher than M43. By "average" I mean: compare any two reasonably large sets of >100 images taken in one shooting. By "significant" I mean that I have no trouble picking out FF vs M43 immediately in such comparisons, without fail.

(PS: doesn't mean I don't like M43. I still kept many M43 lenses and my old GX7 and if they actually bring out a few new bodies with a new sensor, I would love to get another small compact body.)

I agree, even the cheap 20-60mm has better overal quality than the "pro" 12-35mm or 12-60mm PL.
But M43 will give better reach, stabilization and size than FF equivalent 99% of the time at the cost of the low light performance and a bit of DR and tonality (100-400mm or 50-200mm PL for exemple).

However there is some M43 (very few) lenses like the 10-25mm who can compare with very good FF lenses like the 24-70mm S Pro. Yes the 24-70mm S is great, nice rendering, very good sharpness and "3D pop" effect but the 10-25mm is very special, the way the lens renders, the contrast and colors (Leica-esque). It is expensive but not only because it replace a lot of prime, there is some magic inside.
I can't sell my GH5 because of this lens and the 45mm Pro.

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(unknown member) Contributing Member • Posts: 726
Re: S5 or S1
1

However there is some M43 (very few) lenses like the 10-25mm who can compare with very good FF lenses like the 24-70mm S Pro. Yes the 24-70mm S is great, nice rendering, very good sharpness and "3D pop" effect but the 10-25mm is very special, the way the lens renders, the contrast and colors (Leica-esque). It is expensive but not only because it replace a lot of prime, there is some magic inside.
I can't sell my GH5 because of this lens and the 45mm Pro.

With the matching 25-50mm f/1.7 announced and the GH6 good things for m4/3 are on the horizon. Yup, the S series are high quality for sure, but those 2 lenses are unique.

I chose to buy the S5 rather than invest in the 10-25 lens. I'm not sure I made the correct decision.

reinhard becker Regular Member • Posts: 145
Re: S5 or S1
1

Jamajuel wrote:

Daft Punk wrote:

You should be prepared for realising that often ( when taking images in good light ) you will not see any major improvement in image quality over your G9 when looking at images at normal viewing distance.

As someone who's come from M43, I just don't experienced it like that. Yes, if light is good, then you get images that are indistinguishable and good from both (unless you need very shallow DOF).

But from my experience, the average IQ on the S series is significantly higher than M43. By "average" I mean: compare any two reasonably large sets of >100 images taken in one shooting. By "significant" I mean that I have no trouble picking out FF vs M43 immediately in such comparisons, without fail.

(PS: doesn't mean I don't like M43. I still kept many M43 lenses and my old GX7 and if they actually bring out a few new bodies with a new sensor, I would love to get another small compact body.)

I think that heavily depends how you compare the images! I used a Canon 5DII before I switched to MFT. I‘m coming from the film times (started taking pictures by 1985), so I still like big prints for my favorite pictures.

when I tested my results from the 5DII some years ago (against a E-M5II/16MP) I could easily see the difference between the camera on my computer screen. But I was not able to identify the camera on prints in 30x45cm or even 40x60cm from my Epson3800! Also nobody from my photography club was able to sort each print correctly to the used camera. That was good enough for me switch. I bought now into the S1R system because I just wanted, like using medium format in the 90s. I wanted, but I don‘t need it…

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MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 43,376
The lcd hinge type
1

The hinge type on the lcd can get us really polarised ….

A couple of polls on the M4/3 forum on the subject some time ago both gave a similar results:

40% preferred side hinge

40% preferred tilt

20% did not care

If these polls are useful then it seems that at all times 40% of the market will have some resistance to a screen hinge type that does not suit them.

I have commented before:

1) that it does not matter which hinge is used as long as customers still have choice of type.  Panasonic has made camera bodies with each type for a while.

2) that the Sony A7/9 type (NEX and A6***) with their universal tilt (until very recently) did not seem  worry their sales success.  Nor has it worried Canon dslr and RF mount sales with their side hinging. But I have never bought a Canon side hinge lcd since I was amazed  by my Pro90 IS with it s 1.5” side hinged lcd.

3) that the worst thing that happens is that RF-style camera bodies with side hinged apparently do not sell well (think Panasonic GX8 and Olympus Pen-F).  The jury must be out on the Sony A7c.  Why might Sony pick a RF-Style body to swap to side hinge lcd?   I know that they just previously put side hinge into a video-centric body.  Is this the Sony future?

4) that the obvious solution would be for the manufacturers to make a camera mount that would optionally take both types of screen hinged lcd. Sell both types optionally and really find out what their respective popularity was.  And make everybody happy at the same time.  But the future of still-shooting feature improvements is bleak and video seems more capable of providing sellable features - so do everything that makes video more usable.

From time to time we get do-gooders trying to re-design the tilt screen to accomodate portrait mode but I think that the difference in use-need is more fundamental than that.

Since cameras that are larger really need to use the evf more and I tend to use it. My style rarely requires working from the lcd.  Therefore fooling around with swivel-tilt-swivel-it back again really annoys me. If my use required any significant use of the lcd as part of the capture process then I can accept that I would really like side hinge lcd as my main go-to.

I can use the side hinged lcd by pretending that it is a fixed lcd - but just as soon as I need to use it for a high or low shot off tripod the irritation sets in.

As it is I tend to use the evf but if it calls for high or low shots then the innocuous easy-going tilt is wonderful. The tilt lcd is really a fixed lcd that comes in handy some times. Not a happy tail wagging puppy that needs constant attention.

On that basis complex mechanisms that try to make a tilt into some side hinged lcd alternative are not really warranted - tilters are more than happy with the occasional use of (both-side) hinged tilts.

Portrait mode tilt is usually what side hingers want of their potential tilt lcd cameras.  “Hey your tilters, I have an idea that will make your tilting life happier”. Tilters are not that impressed and those that are already quite happy with their side-hinger might as well just buy a side hinged lcd and be done with it (as they do). Being mainly tilter by nature I get by with the occasional portrait mode off the lcd on a tilt mechanism simply by reading the lcd at an angle - even at 45 degrees I can still generally see a side hinged tilt well enough to capture the image.  Furthermore I quite like square format and it is going to end up a cropped image anyway.

But the S1/SR1 bodies with the double catch side hinge lcd are nevertheless quite acceptable as the lcd does not go into portrait orientation until the second catch is released.  Otherwise it simply acts as a conventional side hinged tilt - it other words it can be ignored until you finally need to use it.

This is more what the tilters want as they are not impressed by the fiddly complex use of the side hinge which surely disturbs their normal attention span when only needed/used occasionally.

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Tom Caldwell

georgehudetz Veteran Member • Posts: 5,309
Re: The lcd hinge type

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Since cameras that are larger really need to use the evf more and I tend to use it. My style rarely requires working from the lcd. Therefore fooling around with swivel-tilt-swivel-it back again really annoys me.

If you rarely use the LCD, then on the S5 you can stow it with the screen facing in.  Now it's protected and never comes on, helping with battery life.  But, when you want to use it, now it's just a single 180 degree rotation to pull it out.

For me the only time I use the LCD is when it's on a tripod.  So, regardless of the orientation of the camera, I just flip out the screen and, if I'm in landscape orientation, rotate it a little so it's pointing up at me, and I'm good to go.  I'm still getting used to the S5, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think I'll find this easier than the S1R's screen as now I don't have to find that little slider switch if I want to shoot in portrait orientation.

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(unknown member) Contributing Member • Posts: 726
Re: The lcd hinge type

I think they did a pretty good job trying to please everyone with the display on the S1H. Fujifilm also has a clever setup for tilting in landscape or portrait orientations.

I use the display mostly for adjusting settings and sliding my thumb around for focus point selection. I prefer shooting through the EVF because my vision is rather poor.

reinhard becker Regular Member • Posts: 145
Re: The lcd hinge type
1

georgehudetz wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Since cameras that are larger really need to use the evf more and I tend to use it. My style rarely requires working from the lcd. Therefore fooling around with swivel-tilt-swivel-it back again really annoys me.

If you rarely use the LCD, then on the S5 you can stow it with the screen facing in. Now it's protected and never comes on, helping with battery life. But, when you want to use it, now it's just a single 180 degree rotation to pull it out.

For me the only time I use the LCD is when it's on a tripod. So, regardless of the orientation of the camera, I just flip out the screen and, if I'm in landscape orientation, rotate it a little so it's pointing up at me, and I'm good to go. I'm still getting used to the S5, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think I'll find this easier than the S1R's screen as now I don't have to find that little slider switch if I want to shoot in portrait orientation.

For me you are right and wrong at the same time 😀

I was used to the side hinged lcd from my MFT cameras (also from my first digital cameras, the Canon G1 and Pro1) and thought that this is the best way. The simple flip lcd from Sony and Nikon was out of discussion and the mechanic solution from S1/S1R was ok for me. Not as flexible but it should do. After working for one year with my S1R now I think the Panasonic solution is not overall superior, but especially on the tripod. For exact one reason: using l-brackets!

If I‘m working from tripod I like the use of l-brackets because then I don‘t need very heavy ballheads to carry the S1R with big lenses in vertical position. A good standard head will do ( I use a Novoflex Classicball 3 ) when you turn the camera to vertical und not flip the head 90 degrees to the side.

But with every l-bracket I saw up to now, the usage of side hinged lcd is limited, because the bracket will block some positions. With the S1R solution the bracket is no problem and total fun to use.

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georgehudetz Veteran Member • Posts: 5,309
Re: The lcd hinge type

reinhard becker wrote:

georgehudetz wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Since cameras that are larger really need to use the evf more and I tend to use it. My style rarely requires working from the lcd. Therefore fooling around with swivel-tilt-swivel-it back again really annoys me.

If you rarely use the LCD, then on the S5 you can stow it with the screen facing in. Now it's protected and never comes on, helping with battery life. But, when you want to use it, now it's just a single 180 degree rotation to pull it out.

For me the only time I use the LCD is when it's on a tripod. So, regardless of the orientation of the camera, I just flip out the screen and, if I'm in landscape orientation, rotate it a little so it's pointing up at me, and I'm good to go. I'm still getting used to the S5, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think I'll find this easier than the S1R's screen as now I don't have to find that little slider switch if I want to shoot in portrait orientation.

For me you are right and wrong at the same time 😀

I was used to the side hinged lcd from my MFT cameras (also from my first digital cameras, the Canon G1 and Pro1) and thought that this is the best way. The simple flip lcd from Sony and Nikon was out of discussion and the mechanic solution from S1/S1R was ok for me. Not as flexible but it should do. After working for one year with my S1R now I think the Panasonic solution is not overall superior, but especially on the tripod. For exact one reason: using l-brackets!

If I‘m working from tripod I like the use of l-brackets because then I don‘t need very heavy ballheads to carry the S1R with big lenses in vertical position. A good standard head will do ( I use a Novoflex Classicball 3 ) when you turn the camera to vertical und not flip the head 90 degrees to the side.

But with every l-bracket I saw up to now, the usage of side hinged lcd is limited, because the bracket will block some positions. With the S1R solution the bracket is no problem and total fun to use.

Interesting.  I use an L-bracket with the S1R as well, but have not bought one yet for the S5.  I did think about this before posting, however, and it looked like the L-bracket would not pose a problem with the S5's screen, but that was just a guess.  I agree, that will probably push me back into the dual-tilt camp, LOL.

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Spomeniks Junior Member • Posts: 32
Re: S5 or S1
1

I own an S1, and have only seen an S5 in person one time. I was BLOWN AWAY by the difference in size. It's a very strong point towards the S5 if size/weight are important to you.

I'm used to carrying around varying cameras in Canon's 5D series, so nothing to me felt very different or concerning about handling the S1. It seems like for many, though, it's a bit much.

The other thing to consider is that the S5 has better battery life. I haven't felt like the S1's battery life is BAD, but it's not fantastic.

I think that at this point there's a few things about the S1 that you've got to really want it for for it to be worth it. The S1 is more worth it to me personally because of:

  • Unlimited internal recording at 10 bit
  • Full size HDMI
  • Fantastic EVF
  • Top LCD plate
  • More buttons on the body

But if I wasn't relying on it for a few of those things, I'd definitely get the S5.

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david8732 Regular Member • Posts: 303
The side hinged rear LCD debacle
3

Here in the UK Panasonic have a loan facility where you can use the S5 for a week, I took this option and also got the 20-60 lens.

I hate side hinged screens…. But…. I decided to give it a go to try and cure my hatred.

The S5 is a brilliant camera, I was so impressed with everything apart from one thing, so on sending it back to Panasonic I immediately ordered an S1 with the 24-105.

I hate side hinged LCD’s even more now. I would take hold of the camera and use it in different situations hoping that my hatred for the side hinged would disappear, it never did, it just got worse… it’s an awful design.

To use the screen on a side hinged LCD camera, I have to use my left hand, find the groove, pull out, twist, re-align, rest the screen in my left hand, then look to the left of my lens as the camera points straight ahead, this feels so weird, then to put it back in I have to do all the same again just backwards... and if I wanted to use the screen again, repeat. So if I want the option of a low angle or high angle lots I need to leave the screen out which is obtrusive and conspicuous, it also nearly doubles the width of the camera. A side hinged screen is for two things only, shooting around corners and shooting yourself. Hence why Youtubers always seem to demand that cameras have it (Chris Niccolls is the worst, I’m sure if he reviewed an Arri Alexa he’d demand it should have a side hinged screen so he could see himself).

The tilt is so much faster, unobtrusive and convenient, flick of a finger and it’s in and out. I understand why people think they want a side hinged but camera manufacturers now seem obsessed with only offering them (S5/Sony A7S3/A7C/Fujifilm X-T4 and all the Canons) it’s a worrying trend now that seems driven by Youtubers moaning. And yes if the camera has the side hinged screen I can (as I’ve been told on many occasions) just leave it in place, but this robs me of a tilt, which I love.

Also I’d say that video centric cameras like the A7s3 and the S1h need the side hinged screen even less, who shoots vertical video? This screen is only useful for vloggers, mind you if you watch YouTube reviews they talk to us like everyone is a vlogger.

The concerning thing here is not only the push from social influencers and YouTube reviewers for the side hinged screen it’s the fact that the companies seem to be succumbing to it. Going forward it’s worrying, the way things are going we’re going to lose the choice sooner rather than later.

After shooting 400+ weddings I’ve never needed to shoot myself.

Thanks.

Dr Hal Senior Member • Posts: 2,024
Re: S5 or S1
4

I went from the G9 to the S5 and it was a very easy transitiion.  To me the size of the camera was important.  The S5 is the same size and basically the same configuration and menu system.  The lenses are larger but still very comfortable.  I did recently buy the 70-300 to use at my granddaughter's Lacrosse games.  It is considered a small FF telephoto but it is large.  The S1 was just too large for me to consider.  I do not enjoy lugging a large camera with a large lens.  I am very happy with the S5.  The files are wonderful in PP, the high ISO is unbelievable to me after using m43 for 10 years.  I think that you will be happier with the S5.

Hal

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brucefulton Regular Member • Posts: 210
Re: S5 or S1
1

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that you can get the s5 with the 24-105 as the kit lens from several dealers. I think this is the much better choice than the 20-60 standard kit lens, and you'll save by buying it the 24-105 as the kit choice over the body and lens separately. That's what I did, and I'm happy with the choice. I'll be adding the Sigma 100-400 and one of the sigma wide zooms to round it out soon. Check it out.

Greg Ohio Regular Member • Posts: 236
Re: S5 or S1
1

neile2010 wrote:

hi all,

I am putting in my G9 , exchanging to full Frame....

I am slightly hesitant , should I go for the S5 with 20-60 , or the S1 with 24-105 f4.

I have the S5 and the 24-105. I wouldn't want the S1 because of its size. The 24-105 is a really nice lens, but is big and heavy. I wish I had the option of the 20-60.

If you're going to add a longer telephoto, which you choose could influence the choice of midrange lens. If you go with the 70-300, the 20-60 is a valid option. If you go with the 100-400, you might prefer the 24-105 to avoid the large gap between 60 and 100.

Greg Ohio Regular Member • Posts: 236
Re: The side hinged rear LCD debacle

Depending on the design of your gimbal, the side screen could be much more practical than a tilting one. I use a Weebill S. It would definitely interfere with a tilter, but is great with the S5's.

Off The Mark Veteran Member • Posts: 5,289
Re: The side hinged rear LCD debacle
1

Greg Ohio wrote:

Depending on the design of your gimbal, the side screen could be much more practical than a tilting one. I use a Weebill S. It would definitely interfere with a tilter, but is great with the S5's.

True.

Much easier to use my S5 on my Weebill S than it is to use my S1 on my Weebill S (and that isn't including the weight and size factor of the S1; I am just talking about being able to see the screen when mounted on a Weebill S).

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vincentocat Regular Member • Posts: 260
Re: The side hinged rear LCD debacle
2

I had both. I sold the S5 some weeks ago because I though I didn't need two L mount cameras despite the fact I used the S5 more than the S1. I kept the S1 because of the 6K and the slighty better IBIS (not for the LVF).

However after some weeks, I realized I really don't like to bring the S1, too big and too heavy. The S5 was a joy to use with light lenses like the 35mm F2 DG DN. But even with large lenses like the 24-70mm Pro and the 50mm Pro, I preferred to use the S5 because of the weight difference.

So some days ago, I found a brand new S5 + the 20-60mm for 1540€ and I bought it (I sold my first S5 with the 20-60mm for 1650€). And now I enjoy the system and my lenses again. The size and the weight of the camera is really important, more than I thought, especially if you do a lot of run and gun, if you like to bring your camera to the restaurant, for event, or on long walking trips.

I plan to keep my S1 for now but if I could exchange it for a second S5, I would not hesitate.

A bit off the topic, I have good Sony FE lenses so I will to wait for the A7IV before adding a second S5 but my hopes are low for the A7IV. I have the A7III and I tried the A7SIII, I really don't like Sony cameras. I don't like the colors, the ergonomic, the video quality, the IBIS and more ...

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