Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

Started 11 months ago | Questions
md lucero Regular Member • Posts: 309
Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

The replacement for Red River's San Gabriel Baryta is their new Big Bend paper. Any comparisons to their Palo Duro Softgloss Rag or Epson's Legacy Baryta? I have never tried a RR Baryta. I am printing with an Epson P800.

Thanks,

Michael

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Adam2 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,299
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

md lucero wrote:

The replacement for Red River's San Gabriel Baryta is their new Big Bend paper. Any comparisons to their Palo Duro Softgloss Rag or Epson's Legacy Baryta? I have never tried a RR Baryta. I am printing with an Epson P800.

Thanks,

Michael

No, and here’s why; OBA’s.  Though the levels are low, I don’t print on any papers with OBA’s.  That’s a personal choice though I imagine the paper is quite good.

jrkliny
jrkliny Veteran Member • Posts: 4,575
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

Regardless of science or logic, everyone is free to make personal choices.  I would not be at all put off with a baryta paper or any other paper for that matter with minimal OBAs.  Whether stated by the vendor or not, most papers contain some OBAs in the substrate.  The brightness of the baryta (barium sulfate) layer will not fade or yellow over time.

In addition to the archival qualities, the old San Gabriel baryta paper was my favorite.  Unfortunately the quality was not consistent.  There were two issues.  The first was black specks in the coating.  One shipment I received had specks in about 1/3 of the sheets.  Even then most prints would be OK if the speck(s) coincided with a dark area of the image.  Another issue was flaking of the coating.  If a small flake occurred after printing that would leave a small white area on the print.

The quality issues with baryta paper were not restricted to the Red River papers.  I suspect there is a single mill or a single provider of raw material used in making baryta paper.  Other suppliers had similar issues and at one time several years ago, ALL baryta papers had been recalled and were on "backorder".  I would be concerned about these same issues occurring again based on a long history of issues for all vendors.

For me there would be two reasons to consider the new baryta paper.  First would be the longevity.  That would be only a very minor consideration for me.  Even for inexpensive and high OBA papers, such as the Red River Ultrapro Satin, the claims for longevity are impressive.  I am content with a paper when prints will last for decades even unprotected from UV.  My prints are not likely to be on display under harsh conditions for decades.  Even then they would be behind glazing.

The main reason I would consider the new baryta would be print quality/appearance.  My print quality ranking for RR papers would be: baryta, Palo Duro SG rag, Palo Duro Satin, Ultrapro Satin.  Even then the differences are all but undetectable and that would be for a bare print.  Put the prints behind glazing at viewing distances and the differences vanish.  Of course many people do like the "feel" of rag papers.  The new baryta would not cut it since it is wood based.  That would be a plus for me.  I avoid use of rag papers.  The rag papers need to be shaken and brushed on both sides.  Even then loose cotton fibers tend to accumulate on the rollers and critical printer parts.

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Adam2 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,299
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

jrkliny wrote:

Regardless of science or logic, everyone is free to make personal choices. I would not be at all put off with a baryta paper or any other paper for that matter with minimal OBAs. Whether stated by the vendor or not, most papers contain some OBAs in the substrate. The brightness of the baryta (barium sulfate) layer will not fade or yellow over time.

That's your opinion and I'm fine with that.  Mine take is different and I have moved away from papers with OBA's.

In addition to the archival qualities, the old San Gabriel baryta paper was my favorite. Unfortunately the quality was not consistent. There were two issues. The first was black specks in the coating. One shipment I received had specks in about 1/3 of the sheets. Even then most prints would be OK if the speck(s) coincided with a dark area of the image. Another issue was flaking of the coating. If a small flake occurred after printing that would leave a small white area on the print.

San Gabriel baryta was a solid paper though it was not truly archival in that it contained OBA's.  It did suffer from the consistency issues you identified.

The quality issues with baryta paper were not restricted to the Red River papers. I suspect there is a single mill or a single provider of raw material used in making baryta paper. Other suppliers had similar issues and at one time several years ago, ALL baryta papers had been recalled and were on "backorder". I would be concerned about these same issues occurring again based on a long history of issues for all vendors.

I haven't experienced quality issues with baryta papers from RR including the PDBF 300, Canson and Hahnemuhle.

For me there would be two reasons to consider the new baryta paper. First would be the longevity. That would be only a very minor consideration for me. Even for inexpensive and high OBA papers, such as the Red River Ultrapro Satin, the claims for longevity are impressive. I am content with a paper when prints will last for decades even unprotected from UV. My prints are not likely to be on display under harsh conditions for decades. Even then they would be behind glazing.

Claims for longevity and actual longevity are two different things.  I trust rigorous data from reliable sources such as Mark McCormick.

The main reason I would consider the new baryta would be print quality/appearance. My print quality ranking for RR papers would be: baryta, Palo Duro SG rag, Palo Duro Satin, Ultrapro Satin. Even then the differences are all but undetectable and that would be for a bare print. Put the prints behind glazing at viewing distances and the differences vanish. Of course many people do like the "feel" of rag papers. The new baryta would not cut it since it is wood based. That would be a plus for me. I avoid use of rag papers. The rag papers need to be shaken and brushed on both sides. Even then loose cotton fibers tend to accumulate on the rollers and critical printer parts.

What is RR's "baryta"?  Do you mean the PDBF 300?  BTW baryta papers tend to be either alpha cellulose or rag.  I'm sorry that you've experienced problems with rag papers though I have not.  In addition to RR's PDSR 310 and PDSGR 315, I've used Canson Infinity Platine Fibre Rag, Infinity Rag Photographique, Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin, Photo Rag Baryta, and many other rag papers in Epson and Canon medium and large format printers without issues.  RR is perhaps the best of the three mentioned in terms of "cleanliness" of the paper whether it is roll or cut though Canson and Hahnemuhle have improved significantly.  At most, I use a gentle  shake and/or squeeze of the Giotto rocket air blower before using some fragile surface papers.  In my experience it is not the problem you make it out to be.

jrkliny
jrkliny Veteran Member • Posts: 4,575
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?
2

1.  Do some research and you will quickly find that almost all papers, including photo papers contain some OBAs.  You should have no issue finding reports of positive OBA testing for your Canson and H papers.  By definition a baryta paper is whitened with a surface coating of barium sulfate.  Don't worry about a trace of OBAs in baryta or any other paper.  You are just fooling yourself.

2.  Before you trust longevity data go beyond supposed creds and ego and find out if the "researcher" has validated their methods.  Find out if they even know what that means, if they have done replicate studies to validate the method, and find out if they include quality control materials in each test batch.  I was literally shocked to learn the answers were no, no, no and no for one such individual!!!

3.  A Giotto rocket blower is designed to put out a small gentle puff of air which will not harm a sensor or delicate mirror and shutter parts.  If you think that works to blow lint and debris from large sheets of photo paper, you are welcome to it.  I have put many thousands of sheets through my printer and the rollers and insides are still clean.  I want to keep it that way.

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Adam2 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,299
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?
1

jrkliny wrote:

1. Do some research and you will quickly find that almost all papers, including photo papers contain some OBAs. You should have no issue finding reports of positive OBA testing for your Canson and H papers. By definition a baryta paper is whitened with a surface coating of barium sulfate. Don't worry about a trace of OBAs in baryta or any other paper. You are just fooling yourself.

Sorry, you are just wrong about OBA content and effect.

2. Before you trust longevity data go beyond supposed creds and ego and find out if the "researcher" has validated their methods. Find out if they even know what that means, if they have done replicate studies to validate the method, and find out if they include quality control materials in each test batch. I was literally shocked to learn the answers were no, no, no and no for one such individual!!!

Print longevity is affected by many factors from heat, light, moisture, ozone, etc.  One has to use the best information available and all longevity tests are accelerated approximations.

3. A Giotto rocket blower is designed to put out a small gentle puff of air which will not harm a sensor or delicate mirror and shutter parts. If you think that works to blow lint and debris from large sheets of photo paper, you are welcome to it. I have put many thousands of sheets through my printer and the rollers and insides are still clean. I want to keep it that way.

The rocket blower works fine and my experience with papers differs than yours.   My personal preference is to not print on papers with OBA’s and yours is not to use rag papers.  It’s for the users to decide their preferences and decide what is important for their work.  That’s why there are so many different media , inks, and choices available.  Best wishes.

Euell Veteran Member • Posts: 5,167
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?
6

Adam2 wrote:

jrkliny wrote:

1. Do some research and you will quickly find that almost all papers, including photo papers contain some OBAs. You should have no issue finding reports of positive OBA testing for your Canson and H papers. By definition a baryta paper is whitened with a surface coating of barium sulfate. Don't worry about a trace of OBAs in baryta or any other paper. You are just fooling yourself.

Sorry, you are just wrong about OBA content and effect.

2. Before you trust longevity data go beyond supposed creds and ego and find out if the "researcher" has validated their methods. Find out if they even know what that means, if they have done replicate studies to validate the method, and find out if they include quality control materials in each test batch. I was literally shocked to learn the answers were no, no, no and no for one such individual!!!

Print longevity is affected by many factors from heat, light, moisture, ozone, etc. One has to use the best information available and all longevity tests are accelerated approximations.

3. A Giotto rocket blower is designed to put out a small gentle puff of air which will not harm a sensor or delicate mirror and shutter parts. If you think that works to blow lint and debris from large sheets of photo paper, you are welcome to it. I have put many thousands of sheets through my printer and the rollers and insides are still clean. I want to keep it that way.

The rocket blower works fine and my experience with papers differs than yours. My personal preference is to not print on papers with OBA’s and yours is not to use rag papers. It’s for the users to decide their preferences and decide what is important for their work. That’s why there are so many different media , inks, and choices available. Best wishes.

Anyone try the RR Big Bend Baryta paper?

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JimLong Regular Member • Posts: 446
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?
1

I order a pack of 8 1/2 x 11. Have only made a test print so far.  I found that RR does not have a profile for my epson p800. I made a print on Canson Baryta paper and a print on Big Bend using the Canson profile. I cannot see any difference between the two.

ChicagoRob
ChicagoRob Senior Member • Posts: 1,086
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

JimLong wrote:

I made a print on Canson Baryta paper and a print on Big Bend using the Canson profile. I cannot see any difference between the two.

That makes your job easy: go with the cheapest option.

Petruska Veteran Member • Posts: 9,204
There is a RR Big Ben profile for your P800......

JimLong wrote:

I order a pack of 8 1/2 x 11. Have only made a test print so far. I found that RR does not have a profile for my epson p800. I made a print on Canson Baryta paper and a print on Big Bend using the Canson profile. I cannot see any difference between the two.

Check again.

Under Fine Art, the top one.........

https://www.redrivercatalog.com/profiles/epson-surecolor-p800-color-icc-printer-profiles.html

Bob P.

OP md lucero Regular Member • Posts: 309
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

JimLong wrote:

I order a pack of 8 1/2 x 11. Have only made a test print so far. I found that RR does not have a profile for my epson p800. I made a print on Canson Baryta paper and a print on Big Bend using the Canson profile. I cannot see any difference between the two.

Thank you for posting your findings on this paper.

Regards,

Michael

Euell Veteran Member • Posts: 5,167
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

md lucero wrote:

The replacement for Red River's San Gabriel Baryta is their new Big Bend paper. Any comparisons to their Palo Duro Softgloss Rag or Epson's Legacy Baryta? I have never tried a RR Baryta. I am printing with an Epson P800.

Thanks,

Michael

Had been using Canson Baryta Photographique and Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Satin.  These papers do not come in 17x25, so I ordered the Red River Big Bend Baryta.  IMO, this is an excellent paper with fine detail and great color.  Not at all disappointed.

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Adam2 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,299
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

Euell wrote:

md lucero wrote:

The replacement for Red River's San Gabriel Baryta is their new Big Bend paper. Any comparisons to their Palo Duro Softgloss Rag or Epson's Legacy Baryta? I have never tried a RR Baryta. I am printing with an Epson P800.

Thanks,

Michael

Had been using Canson Baryta Photographique and Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Satin. These papers do not come in 17x25, so I ordered the Red River Big Bend Baryta. IMO, this is an excellent paper with fine detail and great color. Not at all disappointed.

Printed some samples.  A bit whiter base than RR PDB 300 and smoother, less stippled coating.  Not as satiny as CBP and personally I don’t use papers with OBA’s but for those who don’t mind a few, it’s a nice paper.

Euell Veteran Member • Posts: 5,167
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

Adam2 wrote:

Euell wrote:

md lucero wrote:

The replacement for Red River's San Gabriel Baryta is their new Big Bend paper. Any comparisons to their Palo Duro Softgloss Rag or Epson's Legacy Baryta? I have never tried a RR Baryta. I am printing with an Epson P800.

Thanks,

Michael

Had been using Canson Baryta Photographique and Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Satin. These papers do not come in 17x25, so I ordered the Red River Big Bend Baryta. IMO, this is an excellent paper with fine detail and great color. Not at all disappointed.

Printed some samples. A bit whiter base than RR PDB 300 and smoother, less stippled coating. Not as satiny as CBP and personally I don’t use papers with OBA’s but for those who don’t mind a few, it’s a nice paper.

With regard to optical brighteners, I have not experienced noticeable fading or yellowing even with 20-year-old prints. Importantly, I think, the color of the paper's underlayment  is not a significant concern if there is a baryta coating and there is an ink-receptive microporous surface layer.

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Adam2 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,299
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

Euell wrote:

Adam2 wrote:

Euell wrote:

md lucero wrote:

The replacement for Red River's San Gabriel Baryta is their new Big Bend paper. Any comparisons to their Palo Duro Softgloss Rag or Epson's Legacy Baryta? I have never tried a RR Baryta. I am printing with an Epson P800.

Thanks,

Michael

Had been using Canson Baryta Photographique and Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Satin. These papers do not come in 17x25, so I ordered the Red River Big Bend Baryta. IMO, this is an excellent paper with fine detail and great color. Not at all disappointed.

Printed some samples. A bit whiter base than RR PDB 300 and smoother, less stippled coating. Not as satiny as CBP and personally I don’t use papers with OBA’s but for those who don’t mind a few, it’s a nice paper.

With regard to optical brighteners, I have not experienced noticeable fading or yellowing even with 20-year-old prints. Importantly, I think, the color of the paper's underlayment is not a significant concern if there is a baryta coating and there is an ink-receptive microporous surface layer.

With all due respect, I’ve had a few Harman papers with OBA’s yellow after a few years.  I’ve made the commitment that my prints would be created on archival, OBA free papers.  Obviously that decision is a personal one.

jrkliny
jrkliny Veteran Member • Posts: 4,575
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

Adam2 wrote:

With all due respect, I’ve had a few Harman papers with OBA’s yellow after a few years. I’ve made the commitment that my prints would be created on archival, OBA free papers. Obviously that decision is a personal one.

Are you testing to make sure that is the case?

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Euell Veteran Member • Posts: 5,167
Re: Anyone try the new RR Big Bend Baryta Paper?

Adam2 wrote:

Euell wrote:

Adam2 wrote:

Euell wrote:

md lucero wrote:

The replacement for Red River's San Gabriel Baryta is their new Big Bend paper. Any comparisons to their Palo Duro Softgloss Rag or Epson's Legacy Baryta? I have never tried a RR Baryta. I am printing with an Epson P800.

Thanks,

Michael

Had been using Canson Baryta Photographique and Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Satin. These papers do not come in 17x25, so I ordered the Red River Big Bend Baryta. IMO, this is an excellent paper with fine detail and great color. Not at all disappointed.

Printed some samples. A bit whiter base than RR PDB 300 and smoother, less stippled coating. Not as satiny as CBP and personally I don’t use papers with OBA’s but for those who don’t mind a few, it’s a nice paper.

With regard to optical brighteners, I have not experienced noticeable fading or yellowing even with 20-year-old prints. Importantly, I think, the color of the paper's underlayment is not a significant concern if there is a baryta coating and there is an ink-receptive microporous surface layer.

With all due respect, I’ve had a few Harman papers with OBA’s yellow after a few years. I’ve made the commitment that my prints would be created on archival, OBA free papers. Obviously that decision is a personal one.

Interesting. I have some old Harman paper that I haven’t used and now can’t find ICC profiles for the new printer. But, it does not appear to have yellowed. Based on your experience, maybe it will, so I’ll just consign it to test prints or something.

As for the Red River paper, it is only one of two cut sheets I’ve found available in 17x25. Choices are limited.

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