k3iii deep review when ?"dpr" Locked

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JeremieB Senior Member • Posts: 1,165
Re: first

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

PocketPixels wrote:

Since the blur was caused by shutter shock, DPR was correct to criticize this blur in its studio shots.

Was it? The studio shots are meant to show the camera's best image quality, in a way that's directly comparable with other cameras. Yet if you don't meet certain conditions (which might include the camera support)…

Read the D780's review; they found shutter shock there, too - and much uglier IMHO. But they did their best to provide studio shots free of shutter shock:

This was a first look not a review and they are investigating. I'm sure they will do there best to provide studio shots free of shutter shock...for the actual review comparison if it's possible. May not be possible ....as we are not sure yet the cause of the issue

Of course it's possible, they even provided a possible temporary workaround themselves: extract a frame from a pixel shift shot to use ES.

But a casual user opening the comparison tool and selecting K3III has no idea that he's watching a "first look".

Which leads to this kind of reaction : https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65228245

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Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,660
Re: first

JeremieB wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

PocketPixels wrote:

Since the blur was caused by shutter shock, DPR was correct to criticize this blur in its studio shots.

Was it? The studio shots are meant to show the camera's best image quality, in a way that's directly comparable with other cameras. Yet if you don't meet certain conditions (which might include the camera support)…

Read the D780's review; they found shutter shock there, too - and much uglier IMHO. But they did their best to provide studio shots free of shutter shock:

This was a first look not a review and they are investigating. I'm sure they will do there best to provide studio shots free of shutter shock...for the actual review comparison if it's possible. May not be possible ....as we are not sure yet the cause of the issue

Of course it's possible, they even provided a possible temporary workaround themselves: extract a frame from a pixel shift shot to use ES.

Might be a firmware issue....or something else.  May even be in contact with Pentax

But a casual user opening the comparison tool and selecting K3III has no idea that he's watching a "first look".

Does it matter if at that ISO, Aperture, and shutter speed (all done exactly the same as all there other studio shots) that's really the best they could get at this point.  They'll update if the final review comes up with a better shot.

Which leads to this kind of reaction : https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65228245

Seems an honest assessment at this point...it's not like they didn't try hard to get better and were honestly perplexed which led to more investigation.  After all, other users here got similar so it is what one might expect at this point in time

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 12,766
Re: first

JeremieB wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

PocketPixels wrote:

Since the blur was caused by shutter shock, DPR was correct to criticize this blur in its studio shots.

Was it? The studio shots are meant to show the camera's best image quality, in a way that's directly comparable with other cameras. Yet if you don't meet certain conditions (which might include the camera support)…

Read the D780's review; they found shutter shock there, too - and much uglier IMHO. But they did their best to provide studio shots free of shutter shock:

This was a first look not a review and they are investigating. I'm sure they will do there best to provide studio shots free of shutter shock...for the actual review comparison if it's possible. May not be possible ....as we are not sure yet the cause of the issue

Of course it's possible, they even provided a possible temporary workaround themselves: extract a frame from a pixel shift shot to use ES.

But a casual user opening the comparison tool and selecting K3III has no idea that he's watching a "first look".

Which leads to this kind of reaction : https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65228245

Precisely. Let's not forget DPReview got shutter shock on an impressive number of cameras (but if you're not attentive, you might believe only the K-3iii was affected).

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Alex

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Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,660
Avoid....

Alex Sarbu wrote:

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Then best to leave the shot in as is....so the regular user will also know what shutter speeds to avoid.  Take it out of the studio comparison and the masses may not notice so not pick up on the "workaround" you suggest

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Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,660
Somtimes....

PocketPixels wrote:

MarBa wrote:

I think that the studio scene is a test of the sensor and thus it should be shot with the best possible lens and also (if needed) with electronic shutter to prevent shutter shock. Of course, the problem in this case is that Pentax did not send DPR a great lens for the test ... and the K-3 III does not have ES (yet).

I freely admit that I'm about to give a rather bank-shot reply to your reasonable response.

In a perfect world, Ricoh wouldn't send DPReview any lens or camera for the test. DPReview would purchase or borrow the equipment from a retail store or authorized chain.

That actually happens sometimes for the "final review" sample. If I'm not mistaken..."first look" bodies provided by manufactures often get "pulled back" before a final review can be done...and one of the reasons reviews here are often longer in coming than we see with other sites

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JeremieB Senior Member • Posts: 1,165
Re: Avoid....

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Then best to leave the shot in as is....so the regular user will also know what shutter speeds to avoid. Take it out of the studio comparison and the masses may not notice so not pick up on the "workaround" you suggest

I think you defend something impossible to defend, sorry.

What the masses will notice is that at base ISO output from K3III is worse than any other camera, period. Which is wrong and misleading.

And it's never been the purpose of comparison tool to warn users about shutter shock, moreover when in practice there is no warning message displayed when you use the tool.

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Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,660
Not really...

JeremieB wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Then best to leave the shot in as is....so the regular user will also know what shutter speeds to avoid. Take it out of the studio comparison and the masses may not notice so not pick up on the "workaround" you suggest

I think you defend something impossible to defend, sorry.

Not really...just pointing out it might be poor technique to not include/provide actual results one saw during a first look. I certainly wouldn't accuse you of trying to "defend something impossible to defend" (blurry results). I think you're making an honest assessment of your impressions

What the masses will notice is that at base ISO output from K3III is worse than any other camera, period. Which is wrong and misleading.

Not sure how you got that

And it's never been the purpose of comparison tool to warn users about shutter shock,

Again...still under investigation as to what it is and the cause

moreover when in practice there is no warning message displayed when you use the tool.

And there shouldn't be (when using the tool alone in isolation) ...just a comparison of actual results...and if one wonders the why of it...it's explained in the first look. If the results are the same for the final review...it will be explained there as well (just as it was in the first impressions article). The comparison tool was built by a 3rd party contractor if memory serves...and doesn't allow for warning as you suggest. Might be a great feature to add though...like the comments section of the gallery tool. Good suggestion!

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 12,766
Doesn't make sense.

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Then best to leave the shot in as is....so the regular user will also know what shutter speeds to avoid. Take it out of the studio comparison and the masses may not notice so not pick up on the "workaround" you suggest

First, that wasn't what they did for the D780.

Second, there's a serious downside: DPReview would hide the K-3iii's maximum image quality (that is, its image quality in good light at ISO 100). People are supposed to do what, compare ISO 800-1600 images with the competition's ISO 100 taken with electronic shutters? That's not exactly fair, don't you think?

The place to tell us which shutter speeds to avoid is in the review, or perhaps a separate article. Don't worry, there will be more references about this shutter speed issue, more than for any other brand camera affected by it.

Alex

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Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,660
And...

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Then best to leave the shot in as is....so the regular user will also know what shutter speeds to avoid. Take it out of the studio comparison and the masses may not notice so not pick up on the "workaround" you suggest

First, that wasn't what they did for the D780.

And it may not be what they do for the Pentax final review. I would note from the D780 review they said "Noticeable shutter shock at focal lengths beyond 85mm when shooting at slower shutter speeds (~1/30s). Upping your shutter speed or using the camera's 'Quiet Mode' with EFCS on can avoid this" I would hope they point out similar for the Pentax if that is the case

Second, there's a serious downside: DPReview would hide the K-3iii's maximum image quality (that is, its image quality in good light at ISO 100).

Are you suggesting a review site should hide potential downsides?

The place to tell us which shutter speeds to avoid is in the review,

And they might do that...we'll have to see

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 12,766
Re: And...

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Then best to leave the shot in as is....so the regular user will also know what shutter speeds to avoid. Take it out of the studio comparison and the masses may not notice so not pick up on the "workaround" you suggest

First, that wasn't what they did for the D780.

And it may not be what they do for the Pentax final review.

I don't think they first published the shutter shock affected images for the D780. I think people had to wait for the D780 review to find out about it's shutter shock issues.

Second, there's a serious downside: DPReview would hide the K-3iii's maximum image quality (that is, its image quality in good light at ISO 100).

Are you suggesting a review site should hide potential downsides?

An interesting accusation, as a response to me asking they'd treat the K3-iii the same as the other cameras.

The place to tell us which shutter speeds to avoid is in the review,

And they might do that...we'll have to see

What I'd like to see is fairness.

Alex

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Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,660
Couldn't...

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Then best to leave the shot in as is....so the regular user will also know what shutter speeds to avoid. Take it out of the studio comparison and the masses may not notice so not pick up on the "workaround" you suggest

First, that wasn't what they did for the D780.

And it may not be what they do for the Pentax final review.

I don't think they first published the shutter shock affected images for the D780.

I don't think they were allowed to even post/take images per agreements with Nikon before release.  That's often the case were folks get a "body under conditions" before release. So there were no studio scene shots to include in the comparison tool prior to getting a body for review

Second, there's a serious downside: DPReview would hide the K-3iii's maximum image quality (that is, its image quality in good light at ISO 100).

Are you suggesting a review site should hide potential downsides?

An interesting accusation, as a response to me asking they'd treat the K3-iii the same as the other cameras.

So far...they have treated it the same IMO.  After all, D780 took a big shutter shock hit in the review.  If history is any indication...I suspect the Pentax body will be treated no different

The place to tell us which shutter speeds to avoid is in the review,

And they might do that...we'll have to see

What I'd like to see is fairness.

Ones impression of fairness might not always be objective. That's natural.  So far I think they are very consistent across brands...which I see as being fair.... but I'm comparing to many other sites so may have a different "impression"

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 12,766
Re: Not really...

Mako2011 wrote:

JeremieB wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Then best to leave the shot in as is....so the regular user will also know what shutter speeds to avoid. Take it out of the studio comparison and the masses may not notice so not pick up on the "workaround" you suggest

I think you defend something impossible to defend, sorry.

Not really...just pointing out it might be poor technique to not include/provide actual results one saw during a first look. I certainly wouldn't accuse you of trying to "defend something impossible to defend" (blurry results). I think you're making an honest assessment of your impressions

Red herring. Nobody's defending "blurry results"; we're discussing here using these "blurry results", without a word (except the long forgotten article), in the studio sample comparison tool.

While for the other cameras DPR even modified their testing procedure so the image weren't blurry.

Alex

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Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,660
not so?

Alex Sarbu wrote:

While for the other cameras DPR even modified their testing procedure so the image weren't blurry.

Alex

I don't think that's the case.  Plenty of shutter shock images in the comparison tool with regards to the D780.  And DPR also included a modified image in the Pentax first look to show a no-shutter shock version.

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 12,766
Absolutely

JeremieB wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Then best to leave the shot in as is....so the regular user will also know what shutter speeds to avoid. Take it out of the studio comparison and the masses may not notice so not pick up on the "workaround" you suggest

I think you defend something impossible to defend, sorry.

Indeed. There's just no way to defend it, particularly when other cameras had a much more favorable treatment.

What the masses will notice is that at base ISO output from K3III is worse than any other camera, period. Which is wrong and misleading.

+1

People won't even read the article explaining how this is shutter shock; they'd just use the Studio Scene Comparison tool, select some other cameras and the K-3iii, and draw the incorrect conclusion.

Is the purpose here drawing an incorrect conclusion? I don't think anyone here claims it is.

And it's never been the purpose of comparison tool to warn users about shutter shock, moreover when in practice there is no warning message displayed when you use the tool.

Spot on. Obviously, the Studio Scene Comparison tools is supposed to show the camera's maximum performance, excluding factors such as autofocus accuracy, lens, shutter shock (yes, they try to minimize that although I'm not sure they succeeded).

Obviously, the K-3iii's ISO 100-400 images would not have shutter shock issues in slightly different conditions. So these samples are not actually representative for the K-3iii's maximum image quality at ISO 100-400.

Obviously, something that doesn't even mention the shutter shock isn't a tool to advise people to avoid shutter shock issues. A dedicated article, or a section in the review are fine; the sample images which will be seen and interpreted in a very different context aren't.

DPReview avoided including images affected by shutter shock for any other camera. Why is the K-3iii excluded?

Alex

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Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,660
less

Alex Sarbu wrote:

JeremieB wrote:

And it's never been the purpose of comparison tool to warn users about shutter shock, moreover when in practice there is no warning message displayed when you use the tool.

Spot on. Obviously, the Studio Scene Comparison tools is supposed to show the camera's maximum performance, excluding factors such as autofocus accuracy, lens, shutter shock (yes, they try to minimize that although I'm not sure they succeeded).

That's not the case...it supposed to show comparison shots done exactly (as close as possible) the same across brands ....

DPReview avoided including images affected by shutter shock for any other camera.

Also not the case...as images displaying the affects of shutter shock are seen for many many models throughout the comparison tool "to give a clearer idea of how a camera will perform in the real world" But one should note " at the very highest ISOs, it is sometimes necessary to reduce the light level to prevent over-exposure"

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 12,766
Contradicting facts?

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

While for the other cameras DPR even modified their testing procedure so the image weren't blurry.

Alex

I don't think that's the case.

DPR actually stated: "It's worth noting we had to modify our studio scene shooting protocol due to shutter shock (more on that below), since our default method of shooting in Single drive mode led to unusable results."

Plenty of shutter shock images in the comparison tool with regards to the D780.

You mean, these samples?

"We enabled electronic front-curtain shutter (EFCS), switched to Quiet drive mode, and added a short 0.2-second exposure delay."

And DPR also included a modified image in the Pentax first look to show a no-shutter shock version.

In an article which is already "lost".

Alex

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 12,766
Nonsense

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

JeremieB wrote:

And it's never been the purpose of comparison tool to warn users about shutter shock, moreover when in practice there is no warning message displayed when you use the tool.

Spot on. Obviously, the Studio Scene Comparison tools is supposed to show the camera's maximum performance, excluding factors such as autofocus accuracy, lens, shutter shock (yes, they try to minimize that although I'm not sure they succeeded).

That's not the case...it supposed to show comparison shots done exactly (as close as possible) the same across brands ....

Their setup is designed to eliminate variables and approach the camera's maximum possible quality.

And these shots aren't done exactly the same... for some cameras, the testing protocol was modified to avoid shutter shock.

DPReview avoided including images affected by shutter shock for any other camera.

Also not the case

Let's take the A7 (a camera known for its shutter shock issues) as an example. Here's the studio scene sample, and a shutter shock test sample next to each other. Same shutter speed.

See: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/9

Alex

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 12,766
Re: Couldn't...

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

A workaround might also be avoiding these shutter speeds. One could argue that the K-3iii does not directly support electronic shutter, and it's not certain they'll add that feature in a future firmware (they did that for the K-1); but there are alternatives.

Then best to leave the shot in as is....so the regular user will also know what shutter speeds to avoid. Take it out of the studio comparison and the masses may not notice so not pick up on the "workaround" you suggest

First, that wasn't what they did for the D780.

And it may not be what they do for the Pentax final review.

I don't think they first published the shutter shock affected images for the D780.

I don't think they were allowed to even post/take images per agreements with Nikon before release. That's often the case were folks get a "body under conditions" before release. So there were no studio scene shots to include in the comparison tool prior to getting a body for review

Red herring. They modified the test procedure so the studio scene samples won't be affected by shutter shock.

Second, there's a serious downside: DPReview would hide the K-3iii's maximum image quality (that is, its image quality in good light at ISO 100).

Are you suggesting a review site should hide potential downsides?

An interesting accusation, as a response to me asking they'd treat the K3-iii the same as the other cameras.

So far...they have treated it the same IMO. After all, D780 took a big shutter shock hit in the review. If history is any indication...I suspect the Pentax body will be treated no different

Yet the K-3iii's studio scene samples were left affected by the shutter shock issue.

"Yes" and "no" are not the same.

The place to tell us which shutter speeds to avoid is in the review,

And they might do that...we'll have to see

What I'd like to see is fairness.

Ones impression of fairness might not always be objective. That's natural. So far I think they are very consistent across brands...which I see as being fair.... but I'm comparing to many other sites so may have a different "impression"

I'm making an objective observation about their inconsistence in how they treated the K-3iii's shutter shock issue.

Alex

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Lothman Senior Member • Posts: 1,074
right

Mako2011 wrote:

This was a first look not a review and they are investigating. I'm sure they will do there best to provide studio shots free of shutter shock...for the actual review comparison if it's possible. May not be possible ....as we are not sure yet the cause of the issue

well said, before there is not something published  what dpreview calls "review" why bother?

They give us tons of information for free!!!!! And they point out that there might be an "issue"

I cannot understand the expectation of some of the top posting Pentax-SLR members. I would understand if they had to pay 20$ for a review-download.

Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,660
Same...

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

While for the other cameras DPR even modified their testing procedure so the image weren't blurry.

Alex

I don't think that's the case.

DPR actually stated: "It's worth noting we had to modify our studio scene shooting protocol due to shutter shock (more on that below), since our default method of shooting in Single drive mode led to unusable results."

Not unlike what they had to do with the Pentax images and what they will be doing with the Pentax review and all reviews.  I'm still not sure it's a shutter shock issue as the shutter speed is so low...but note that the higher the rez the more obvious Shutter shock has become

Plenty of shutter shock images in the comparison tool with regards to the D780.

You mean, these samples?

Yes....there are lots ofd SS examples in the compare tool...and silent shutter features are relatively new...so it makes since to use it as folks will normally.  Unfortunately, Pentax left off the feature so it can't be used in a normal way

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