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Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

Started May 29, 2021 | Discussions
lokatz
lokatz Veteran Member • Posts: 3,564
Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?
19

Few people may have had this opportunity, so I thought I should share some observations from the comparative testing I conducted over the past week or so: I extensively tested and compared my trusted wildlife and birding setup, a Nikon D850 DSLR with Nikon’s 500mm/f5.6 PF lens on it, with Canon’s R5 mirrorless body plus the RF 100-500 1/4.5-7.1. Both setups deliver about 45MP, weigh about the same, and relieve you of similar dough, though the Canon rig runs about $500 more in the U.S. (and, for some strange reason, commands a significantly higher price premium in Europe).

On the assumption that bird shooters on both sides may find it interesting but react differently, I am posting this same loooong report on the Nikon FX DSLR and Canon R forums, with an additional link on the Nikon SLR lens forum.

Intro

Having shot with Nikon cameras almost exclusively for about 25 years, and having owned the D850 for three years and the 500 PF literally from the day it came out, I entered into this comparison with these questions in my mind:

  • Is the R5 significantly more capable than the D850 for wildlife, given that it is newer and more expensive, and is its IBIS good enough to compensate for the lens’ relatively small maximum aperture?
  • Is the RF 100-500 f/4.5-7.1 close enough to the 500 f/5.6 PF’s performance, especially in image sharpness, to make the combo worth considering? After all, the 500 PF is an outstanding lens and the reigning champion when it comes to light-weight options for wildlife.

My expectation was that the R5 would slightly out-perform the D850, but not by enough to compensate for the 500 PF’s sharpness and IQ advantages over the Canon zoom lens, not to mention the Nikon lens aperture advantage where it counts, at 500mm.

Let’s get the obvious out of the way: zoom vs prime is almost always an apples-to-oranges comparison, with the prime being sharper and the zoom offering the flexibility of, well, the zoom range. In this case, the 100-500mm range means you are ready for all birds and other wildlife, whereas the fixed 500mm FL can be a limitation when shooting larger animals. An additional advantage of the Canon lens in this context is its close focusing distance of 3-4ft (0.9-1.2m), depending on the FL. Combined with a magnification of 0.33 at 500mm, the Canon can be used for near-macro shots of insects or other close subjects, whereas the Nikon’s minimum focusing distance of 9.8ft / 3m can be a challenge in some situations. With birds, though, those situations are quite rare, as you’ll be at 500mm most of the time anyway and birds rarely come close unless you are shooting at a feeder, though I have lost a few shots because I was too close. In any case, all of my below observations apply to an FL of 500mm only. From other reviews, I understand that the RF 100-500 may be at its best at the wider end, which applies to most if not all tele zooms. That is not all that relevant for bird shots.

I realize that many bird photographers shoot primarily with 600 and 800mm primes. That comparison will likely look different. For my part, I usually hike or walk around when shooting birds and rarely use a tripod. Accordingly, weight matters a great deal to me, so I stay away from the super-heavies even though I could afford them.

A caveat: as a novice to Canon who over the years owned around ten Nikon DSLRs and two Nikon MLs, I could be somewhat biased here, plus I may be overlooking aspects on the Canon side, good or bad, that I have yet to discover. Nobody’s perfect...

Next, let me get a few nags out of the way before comparing the systems.

What’s not to like about this Nikon combo?

Cannot think of much, to be honest. My biggest heartburn with the D850, and my only significant one, is its shutter sound. This body is LOUD. On a recent trip with extensive bird shooting, I lost quite a few shots because the bird fled when hearing the first ‘clonk’ coming from my camera. Switching to Quiet mode alleviates this some but severely affects the FPS rate. This may sound parochial but is a real issue for me. My biggest heartburn with the 500 PF is its minimum focusing distance of 10ft/3m (the Canon’s is a mere 4ft/1.2m at 500mm!). With the 500 PF, I’ve had quite a few situations where I had to move backwards so as to increase the distance between me and the bird. In fact, I once fell pretty badly on an island off the coast of New Zealand when stepping backwards and not considering the edge of the uphill trail I was on, hurting myself, damaging the lens hood (and my pants), though not the camera or lens itself, which was fortunately protected by a neoprene coat.

What’s not to like about this Canon combo?

The two things I noticed so far that are not merely inconveniences caused by me being more familiar with Nikon are that the lens has to be kept extended to 300mm if you use an extender (= Canonese for teleconverter), which is true even when transporting the rig, and the Canon body’s very inconveniently placed On switch. Come on, Canon, seriously? Before using a Canon body (as in: any Canon ILC, AFAIK), you need to use both hands: turn the camera on at the left top, then focus/shoot with your right hand. Even with practice, this takes considerable time. In Nikon’s case, both functions are essentially served by the same button, as the On switch is integrated into the shutter release button. With some practice, turning a Nikon on and starting to shoot takes but a fraction of a second, a valuable time advantage over Canon when you just spotted a bird. Nikon’s is a MUCH better arrangement.

Balance and handling

Not a whole lot to report here. Both combos feel well balanced and laid out, though each of them has its small quirks and inconsistencies. The Canon is quite a bit shorter overall when the lens is at 100mm, which is helpful when transporting the rig, while longer than the Nikon when extended to 500mm. The rear displays are both good. The Canon’s 5.7MP EVF is excellent and almost makes you forget it is not optical. The top OLED display IMO is a little inferior to those on Nikon’s Z series but still very good. The R5’s fully articulated screen works well but makes little difference to me as I mostly shoot hand-held.

I configured both bodies as most bird photographers seem to be doing it: D850 set up for BBF with Single AF on the AF-On button, switchable to Group when pressing the Pv or Fn1 button on the front; R5 set up for dual BBF, with the AF-On button set to Spot and the ‘*’ button set to Animal Eye AF. The Canon’s configuration is somewhat more intuitive, though I wish it had the slightly larger buttons of the D850, which my fingers struggle less to find and operate.

Battery life is worse on the R5, as is expectable from all ML bodies. I did not test this but rely on reports from others, where I saw anything from ~400-900 shots per charge. Taking a few extra batteries along is a no-brainer, so this isn’t a concern for me.

Image quality

While it is not the only lens characteristic that counts, image sharpness or, more precisely, actual image resolution matters most when shooting birds. Given that these little guys are often far away and sometimes require considerable cropping, how sharp the resulting image is translates directly to how much feather detail you can still see. I expected Canon’s lens to be slightly softer than the Nikon 200-500, where a good copy is strong in the center and somewhat soft in the corners.

The RF 100-500 took me by surprise: while a little softer than the 500 PF, it performed amazingly well, especially at the medium distances that matter most for birds. Corner performance was also good, definitely better than the Nikon 200-500’s. Unsurprisingly, the Canon zoom showed more focus breathing than the Nikon prime. At 10ft/3m, the 100-500’s longest FL is less than 450mm. To me, this is not a concern whatsoever. More noteworthy, however, is that the Canon lens seems less sharp at close distances, where it proved clearly inferior. Shooting a test chart at 10ft/3m, I found the Nikon images to be notably sharper than the Canon ones (if interested, pixel-peep the first comparison image below to see the exact differences). This was not terrible and the resulting images still looked good, but the Nikon rig definitely produced sharper results at close distance. Again, not much of a concern for birds since they are usually much farther away, but the difference might matter for close-ups of insects, for example. Minimum focusing distance may therefore be less of an advantage for Canon than it appears on paper. (Like everything else, I only tested this at 500mm. The Canon might perform better at shorter FLs.)

The above notwithstanding, Canon exceeded my expectations. In my view, the RF 100-500 performs close enough to the 500 PF sharpness-wise to make it an acceptable alternative. Don’t want to clutter this post with too many images, but I guess many of you want to see for yourself, so here are a few to illustrate the differences (Nikon on the left, Canon on the right):

Distance about 10ft/3m, center crops to 2000x2000px. Focus breathing is obvious.

Distance about 30ft/9m, center crops to 1000x1000px

Distance about 80ft/25m, extreme center crops to 780x552px

Distance about 240-320ft/75-100m, center crops to 1775x450px

500+ft/150+m, extreme center crops to 595x445px

SIDE NOTE: An irritating phenomenon with both bodies is that they write arbitrary focal distance values into the EXIF data with distant objects: above around 330ft/100m or so, the D850 apparently shows everything at 75m, the R5 at 665m, regardless of how far away the object in focus really was.

In manual mode with Auto ISO and both bodies set to matrix metering, the Canon produced slightly brighter images than the Nikon, which took some adjusting via exposure compensation to get to a true apples-to-apples comparison. I initially thought this was owing to the cameras’ monitor brightness settings, but careful comparisons confirmed it to be about one-quarter to one-third of a stop. Slightly irritating. A possible explanation is that the R5’s display consistently showed me an aperture of f/6.7 when extending the lens to 500mm, whereas the lens itself is spec’d at 1/7.1. Assuming the lens is at 1/7.1 and the body indeed assumes f/6.7, this would explain the exposure being slightly off. Weird, though hardly relevant for my shooting.

Among other lens characteristics that influence how the image looks, I consider only one relevant: bokeh. Lens distortion is all but irrelevant for wildlife, given the small degree of it found in modern lenses. Chromatic aberration, which the RF 100-500 shows quite a bit in the corners, can be a nuisance but is so easily and automatically corrected in post that I hardly care. Lens vignetting is almost an advantage: I often add some of it in post to make the bird stand out more. An exception to the latter is when shooting birds against the sky, but here again, correcting a little bit of vignetting is easy in post, so for me it’s a don’t-care, and neither lens showed excessive amounts.

Bokeh is expectably better on an f/5.6 lens compared to an f/7.1 one, so the Nikon lens has another edge here, though only a small one. I shot a twig with a bunch of leaves and some bright spots in the back, and while the Nikon shots were slightly more pleasing overall, the difference was small.

Autofocus and low-light performance

Switching back and forth between high-contrast subjects, the Canon combo re-focused notably faster. At the same time, it occasionally hunted a bit more in Spot AF mode when the subject lacked contrast, such as when switching back and forth between a well-defined background and a bunch of green leaves in the foreground. This is typical of sensor-based AF techniques and can make a bird harder to find in low-contrast situations. It is easy to circumvent with proper pre-focusing, though. Once the animal is in reasonable focus, switching to the R5’s Animal Eye AF keeps the focus on the bird pretty much all the time, whereas following it in the viewfinder with the D850 and making sure it remains in focus is a trickier undertaking. In most situations, the Canon’s focus felt faster and more steady. It took me significantly less time to complete a large number of test shots of house sparrows with the Canon than with the Nikon, which is further evidence to the ease with which it can be used to shoot birds that won’t sit still most of the time.

Nikon claims 4 to 4.5 steps, Canon a mind-boggling 6-step improvement with their respective VR/IS technologies, the latter being the result of Canon’s R system combining IBIS and in-lens image stabilization for maximal effect. Both claims seem credible to me and give the edge to Canon. Let’s not forget, though, that VR/IS helps little with birds as you usually want your shutter speed to be somewhere between 1/250s (if the bird sits still) and 1/4000s (fast BIF).

A bit more relevant is the Canon’s low-light AF advantage. The respective claims are -6EV for the R5 and -4EV for the D850. Indeed, the Canon focused notably better in dimly lit situations, sometimes long after the Nikon had to give up. Again, this does not matter much for bird shooting as you won’t get a usable image at these limits. For other types of shooting, however, Canon clearly comes out ahead when the light is poor.

To me, low-light shooting is a toss-up: the Nikon lens has the wider aperture, meaning I’ll have less noise on the bird in poor light, whereas the Canon body focuses better, meaning there is a higher chance of getting the shot with birds that move around. Which represents the bigger argument depends on the exact shooting situation and subject.

PhotonsToPhotos shows the R5 ahead of the D850 in dynamic range by about a third of a stop at ISO800 and above. I took a number of test shots from ISO1600 to ISO25600 and could not find much of a difference, to be honest. Both bodies essentially showed the same amounts of noise, which was a bit of bad news for me as I was hoping the Canon body could compensate some for its slower lens. Because of this, the resulting images will need to be shot at higher ISOs. However, this is not much of a concern for me. With ever-improving noise reduction algorithms, shooting at ISO12800 has become very feasible, and the difference between the two lenses is only two-thirds of a stop anyway.

Overall, how do the Nikon D850 and Canon R5 compare?

Many threads on the Nikon forums ask when we are going to see a mirrorless D850 replacement. In all fairness, if it weren’t for the different mount, the Canon R5 would be exactly that: it offers D850-like versatility and performance across the board, besting the D850’s capabilities in areas that matter to many, from AF speed to frames per second, 5-axis IBIS resulting in a 6-stop IS/VR gain with this lens, the articulated screen with its well-implemented touch options, and more. The R5’s few deficiencies are easily forgiven once you experience what the Animal AF does to your keeper rate: it is not 100% perfect but very close to that. Getting perfectly sharp shots with it takes less skill than achieving the same with the D850 does. The excellent EVF greatly simplifies low-light bird shooting, where the bird is sometimes hard to find in the D850’s viewfinder. The option to shoot at 20 FPS further adds to the Canon’s appeal. Oh, and did I mention that silent shooting is fabulous for birds, while even the mechanical shutter sound is way less intrusive than the Nikon’s? Yes, this body costs quite a bit more than the D850 does, but it is absolutely worth it. For a long time, I thought significant improvements over the D850 would not be possible, but the R5 has taught me differently. It is better in many ways.

What I did not mention so far, since it was not subject of my specific comparison, is that from the spec sheets and my handling of these bodies, it is clear that both are all-rounders that will handle almost every kind of shooting situation well. Not much of a consideration for me since I prefer to have one dedicated wildlife setup and another one for all other subjects, but if you are looking for a great do-it-all body, neither will disappoint, though the R5 will have a clear edge. For those shooting video, which I do not, it won’t even be a contest as the R5 does that better by leaps and bounds.

Overall, how do the Nikon 500 PF and Canon RF 100-500 compare?

The 500 PF is one of Nikon’s best lenses, and by far its best one when it comes to portable teles. It was in short supply for more than two years, and there are still almost no used ones to be had, testimony to how good this lens is. The Canon lens being almost at par sharpness-wise is amazing and great news for Canon shooters.

Overall, I see the two lenses as near-even performance-wise: the small lead in sharpness and bokeh advantage of the Nikon are easily offset by the convenience of the Canon zoom and its focusing speed. Given that it is a zoom, the Canon’s performance is remarkable. The build quality of the two lenses seems about the same: both are solid, sturdy lenses, though I nevertheless prefer to protect both with a neoprene cover.

My personal bottom line

I will continue to be a Nikon user, happily shooting landscapes, travel, architecture, etc. with my Z7 II and the Z lenses I own so far or may buy next. It is a great body and I love the results this camera produces together with the mostly exceptional Z lenses.

For wildlife and birds, I am going to keep the Canon R5 and 100-500mm lens, so my gear will be split between the two makes. (Wondering if this make me “That Canikon Guy”?) This does not mean that the Canon gear is great and the Nikon set sucks. It simply means that I believe the R5 with the RF 100-500 lens will serve my needs better. Changing my wildlife/birding rig comes with some apprehension, as the Canon lens’ smaller aperture keeps me a little uneasy in spite of my test results. On the other hand, the big Canon benefits for my shooting style are silent shooting, the general focusing performance and especially the extremely impressive Animal Eye AF, plus the EVF which makes it a snap to find and track birds in low light. These aspects make the Canon rig an amazingly effective set for bird shooting. In addition, there are quite a few other things to like, though these are less substantial.

Other thoughts

You may have been looking for comments on each combo’s BIF performance in this post. Actually, sharing any at this point would be unfair. You need a lot of experience with a body/lens combo to get decent BIF results, and I do not have that level of experience with the Canon combo just yet. I have no reason to believe I would arrive at a different conclusion, though.

Lastly, did I consider Sony? The answer is that while the a1 looks interesting, Sony does not offer a lens that would work as well for me. I much prefer to shoot without teleconverters/extenders, since I have yet to see one that performs better than the alternative of carefully up-scaling an image shot without one. Sony’s 100-400, as good as it may be, therefore does not hold much appeal for me. The 200-600 receives lots of praise, but at 2.2kg or almost a-pound-and-a-half more than the Canon and Nikon lenses, it is too heavy to take along on long hikes.

 lokatz's gear list:lokatz's gear list
Sony RX100 VII Canon EOS R5 OM-1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 1.4x Teleconverter EC-14 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R +31 more
Canon EOS R5 Canon RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1L IS USM Nikon 500mm F5.6E PF Nikon D500 Nikon D850 Nikon Z7 II Sony a1
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BirdShooter7 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,127
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?
1

Thanks very much for sharing your findings, interesting read.

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Some of my bird photos can be viewed here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gregsbirds/

axlotl Senior Member • Posts: 2,273
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

Thanks for posting this excellent comparison.

I use the R5 with RF 100-500mm for birds in flight and am finding this combination very effective. The way the system can pick out a flying bird and track it even in front of a busy background is remarkable.

I understand the logic of your decision to go with two different systems, particularly as you are already set up with lots of good Nikon gear.

But the two systems approach would drive me silly. The zooms turn in the opposite direction, the lenses mount in the oppposite direction, the controls are all in different places.

I wonder if in the long run you might consider graduating to just one system ?

Andrew

Subutai Forum Member • Posts: 54
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

Thanks for taking the time to compile all of this information and post it here for us to benefit from.  Greatly appreciated.  I've been looking for some real world comparisons between these two systems with these two lenses and you have answered / validated a lot of the questions/suspicions that I had as far as that comparison goes.

Thanks again!  Fantastic post!

lokatz
OP lokatz Veteran Member • Posts: 3,564
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

axlotl wrote:

Thanks for posting this excellent comparison.

I use the R5 with RF 100-500mm for birds in flight and am finding this combination very effective. The way the system can pick out a flying bird and track it even in front of a busy background is remarkable.

I understand the logic of your decision to go with two different systems, particularly as you are already set up with lots of good Nikon gear.

But the two systems approach would drive me silly. The zooms turn in the opposite direction, the lenses mount in the oppposite direction, the controls are all in different places.

I wonder if in the long run you might consider graduating to just one system ?

Andrew

On my Nikons, I used a Sigma 100-400 for a while which also turns 'the Canon way' when zooming.  Didn't bother me in the least.

I've been shooting with one dedicated wildlife setup and another for everything else for years now, so I am quite used to them being different and using each only with a subset of what they can do. Until this transition, it's been a Nikon D850 and a Z7 II. Those two aren't as different as a Nikon and a Canon, but there are enough differences to take some getting used to for each one, so I'm confident I'll get used to the Canon. The R5 will ONLY be used with the 100-500, though.

My only worry, to be perfectly honest, are things like safaris where I usually need to have two bodies at the ready, one with a long and another with a shorter tele zoom.  Things could get a little messy then... 

Lothar

 lokatz's gear list:lokatz's gear list
Sony RX100 VII Canon EOS R5 OM-1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 1.4x Teleconverter EC-14 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R +31 more
lokatz
OP lokatz Veteran Member • Posts: 3,564
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?
1

Subutai wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to compile all of this information and post it here for us to benefit from. Greatly appreciated. I've been looking for some real world comparisons between these two systems with these two lenses and you have answered / validated a lot of the questions/suspicions that I had as far as that comparison goes.

Thanks again! Fantastic post!

I was hoping it would be useful, so I much appreciate your note!

 lokatz's gear list:lokatz's gear list
Sony RX100 VII Canon EOS R5 OM-1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 1.4x Teleconverter EC-14 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R +31 more
Chris B. Contributing Member • Posts: 627
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

Fabulous read with thorough details! I appreciate your "real world" comments, and your post has answered many questions for me.

I've been a photographer for over 50 years, and shot professionally for much of that. I started with Nikon MF cameras and lenses in film days, and switched to Canon digital in '97. I retired from shooting professionally in 2015, and in 2018, I switched back to Nikon. My current favorite body is the D850 although I also own a D5. My primary interest these days is birds, and use the 500PF virtually 100% of the time. It's an exceptional rig, and delivers superb images, but it's getting a bit heavy so I've been looking for alternatives. Nothing Nikon currently makes in the mirrorless realm is appealing, and several friends have acquired the R5/100-500 which is not only much lighter but delivers stunning images. I'm not "married" to one brand or another so will invest my monies in the gear which offers the most promise. Based on your very well-thought out post, should I want to invest in mirrorless gear, the R5/100-500 combo may be in the cards!

Chris

lokatz
OP lokatz Veteran Member • Posts: 3,564
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

Hi Chris,

Glad my write-up was useful. I don't want to make your choices any more difficult, but it seems I should point to what looks like a misunderstanding: there is not much to be gained weight-wise. The D850 together with the 500 PF weighs 2,375 grams, the R5 plus the 100-500 (including the lens foot) is 2,263 grams, so the difference is 112 grams or four ounces. Not much of a weight reduction, really, because the Canon lens is a bit heavier than the Nikon. Sorry!

Lothar

 lokatz's gear list:lokatz's gear list
Sony RX100 VII Canon EOS R5 OM-1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 1.4x Teleconverter EC-14 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R +31 more
G Dickson
G Dickson Senior Member • Posts: 1,762
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

Brilliant comparison review.  Many thanks indeed for taking the time to do this.  This shows just how good the D850 is even few years down the track.  Truly one of the best ever DSLRs.  It is also really interesting how canon's 100-500 fares so well against that 500.  I do wonder what happened to the compact 600mm canon prime with DO that we were all teased with a few years ago.

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Gilmour

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Canon 6D Mark II Canon EOS R6 Canon EF 85mm F1.8 USM Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM +4 more
lokatz
OP lokatz Veteran Member • Posts: 3,564
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?
1

G Dickson wrote:

Brilliant comparison review. Many thanks indeed for taking the time to do this. This shows just how good the D850 is even few years down the track. Truly one of the best ever DSLRs. It is also really interesting how canon's 100-500 fares so well against that 500. I do wonder what happened to the compact 600mm canon prime with DO that we were all teased with a few years ago.

It is probably at the exact same stage as the longtime-rumored Nikon 600 PF. 

 lokatz's gear list:lokatz's gear list
Sony RX100 VII Canon EOS R5 OM-1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 1.4x Teleconverter EC-14 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R +31 more
axlotl Senior Member • Posts: 2,273
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

G Dickson wrote:

Brilliant comparison review. Many thanks indeed for taking the time to do this. This shows just how good the D850 is even few years down the track. Truly one of the best ever DSLRs. It is also really interesting how canon's 100-500 fares so well against that 500. I do wonder what happened to the compact 600mm canon prime with DO that we were all teased with a few years ago.

That would be the RF 600mm f11 IS STM with the gapless DO front group.  I had one until I bought the RF 100-500mm. But the 600 f11 is still a very good lens and remarkable value for money.

There is also an 800mm f11 also with DO front group.

Andrew

richard cohen Senior Member • Posts: 1,627
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

Tough choice. the r5 will track birds in flight a little bit better (not a lot), but the d850 files are just beautiful, and the 500pf lens is way superior to the 100-500...as it should be zoom vs fixed aperture. I know people swear by the 100-500 but I sold mine. I still have both of these bodies.

 richard cohen's gear list:richard cohen's gear list
Nikon D4 Nikon D810 Nikon D750 Nikon D500 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED +9 more
gavin
gavin Veteran Member • Posts: 8,241
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

Thanks for detailed review. It is very informative.

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 gavin's gear list:gavin's gear list
Sony RX100 III Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EF 50mm F1.4 USM Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM +5 more
lokatz
OP lokatz Veteran Member • Posts: 3,564
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

axlotl wrote:

G Dickson wrote:

Brilliant comparison review. Many thanks indeed for taking the time to do this. This shows just how good the D850 is even few years down the track. Truly one of the best ever DSLRs. It is also really interesting how canon's 100-500 fares so well against that 500. I do wonder what happened to the compact 600mm canon prime with DO that we were all teased with a few years ago.

That would be the RF 600mm f11 IS STM with the gapless DO front group. I had one until I bought the RF 100-500mm. But the 600 f11 is still a very good lens and remarkable value for money.

There is also an 800mm f11 also with DO front group.

Andrew

I believe Canon's original plan was to release a true 600mm DO, similar to the 400mm f/4 DO. Problem is, if I am not mistaken you need a front element diameter of 112mm at 600mm to get an f/5.6 lens, which is hardly practical, so that 600mm DO, or Nikon's 600mm PF for that matter, would more likely have to be an f/8 lens. Not that appealing, given that the expensive front element these lenses require would still make them rather expensive, the estimates I have seen being in the $4-5K range.

The RF 600 and 800 f/11 lenses with their simpler optical construction strike me as better compromises in this case. They are great entry-level teasers and work reasonably well in good light, AFAIK. On the other hand, they serve mostly to 'pave the way' towards the 100-500, which is good product marketing.

Nikon does not have similar low-cost offerings in its portfolio yet.  Well, there are always the Sigma and Tamron tele zooms...

 lokatz's gear list:lokatz's gear list
Sony RX100 VII Canon EOS R5 OM-1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 1.4x Teleconverter EC-14 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R +31 more
jwpvb
jwpvb Regular Member • Posts: 124
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?
1

Great analysis but I think your “personal bottom line” is strongly biased because it is hard to part from 25 years of Nikon experience – same here for 35 years!

I separated your comparison to two: Lenses and Camera.

Overall, comparing apples to apples, both Nikon and Canon have excellent lenses. Yes – Canon still has to come out with additional RF lenses to cover the range.

My last two Nikon cameras were D850 and Z7 with the associated F2.8 zoom lenses. I shoot mostly wild life (including BYF) and “Wild Cars” on the race track. The Z7 was a great disappointment for shooting fast moving objects - the EVF flickering and the slow focusing were made it almost un-usable. So I got the R5 and after a few tests I quickly sold all my Nikon gear (at a great loss) and have been using the R5 with continues success. Yes – it hard to teach an old dog new tricks and as the dog gets older (75 now) it just takes a little longer. To me, trying to work with two different systems, eventually compromises the performance of both (may be some people can), not to mention the need for two camera bags.

So here is my question to you: Other than the benefit of having some Nikon lenses that Canon does not have yet, what can the D850 (or Z7) do that Canon R5 cannot?

 jwpvb's gear list:jwpvb's gear list
Canon G7 X II Canon EOS R5 Canon RF 35mm F1.8 IS STM Macro Canon RF 70-200mm F2.8L IS USM Canon RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1L IS USM +2 more
pawn Veteran Member • Posts: 3,261
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?
1

Thanks lokatz for the post.

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lokatz
OP lokatz Veteran Member • Posts: 3,564
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

jwpvb wrote:

To me, trying to work with two different systems, eventually compromises the performance of both (may be some people can), not to mention the need for two camera bags.

Well, I own something like six camera bags, and usually have my wildlife gear in a different one from my landscape/architecture/other subjects one, taking either or both along as needed.

If you are used to having one main body, my approach won't make much sense to you, which is perfectly understandable. For my part, however, I am used to having two different bodies anyway.

So here is my question to you: Other than the benefit of having some Nikon lenses that Canon does not have yet, what can the D850 (or Z7) do that Canon R5 cannot?

Fair question. I am afraid not everyone is going to like the answer, so I'll again point out that it is my answer, not a universal one. I will answer only for the Nikon Z7 II, the camera I intend to keep, ignoring the D850.

For the first half of my answer, I'll use DPReview as a reference:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/buying-guide-best-cameras-for-landscapes

While the AF still lags behind others and disappoints with erratically moving subjects (it works well for subjects with less or steady movement), the overall results my Z7 II produces for landscape shots, for example, are very pleasing. Could the R5 get there or at least get close? DPR liked the Z7 II better, but in any case, I may never even find out.

This is because of the second half of my argument:

What mostly gets overlooked in the DSLR-versus-ML wars, which to me seems to apply to Canon and Nikon alike, is that it is not so much the body but the lens that makes the difference. The wider bayonets, the much closer flange distance, and the fact that lens designs have made substantial improvements over the past 10-15 years or so led to these ML lenses being far superior to older designs. Nikon picked the widest bayonet and closest flange distance, which seems to have helped: their Z lenses are extremely good almost across the board. My second reference is German photo mag ColorFoto, which has been around for 45 or so years and always excelled with diligent, systematic and repeatable lens and body testing that considered only 'hard data', so price, haptics, accessories and the like play no role in their scores.

The average score for the 11 RF lenses they tested so far is 101 points. (I am discounting the 600 and 800 f/11, which each received 81 points and would otherwise pull the average down quite a bit). For comparison, the average EF lens score is below 80 points, evidence for how much better the RF lenses are.

In case of Nikon, however, where the average of the older F-mount lenses is even lower than Canon's EF average, the 14 Z lenses the magazine tested so far scored an average 108 points, the highest of any camera maker. In other words, the RF lenses are very good, but the Z lenses are even better.

So, which incentive do I have to replace the Z7 II and four Z lenses I own now with another R5 and the corresponding RF lenses I would need to buy? For the above reasons, I fail to see a benefit warranting the investment.

 lokatz's gear list:lokatz's gear list
Sony RX100 VII Canon EOS R5 OM-1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 1.4x Teleconverter EC-14 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R +31 more
jwpvb
jwpvb Regular Member • Posts: 124
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?
1

I fully understand your logic and if I would have been 10 years younger I probably would have done the same - who cares how many camera begs I need to carry on my trips also, it looks like you are much more vested in z lenses (and a ZII) than I was. I agree: the three Z lenses that I had were superior, but the RF70mm-200mm F2.8 that I have is at least as good (actually amazing!). Just to show you that I am not all just for Canon: I really miss my Nikon D850 with the AF-S NIKKOR 70-200mm F/2.8E FL ED VR, together with the 2X TC for 140-400mm F5.6 with outstanding sharpness. The only option I have for similar performance is to add another big and expensive (!) RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1L IS USM Lens, that makes the bag much heavier.

Good luck to you with whatever suits your needs.

Thank you again for sharing!

 jwpvb's gear list:jwpvb's gear list
Canon G7 X II Canon EOS R5 Canon RF 35mm F1.8 IS STM Macro Canon RF 70-200mm F2.8L IS USM Canon RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1L IS USM +2 more
lokatz
OP lokatz Veteran Member • Posts: 3,564
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

Seems to me both Canon and Nikon offer lots of great products.  Great for us photographers! 

Did you own the Nikon Z 70-200 before?  Would be interested in how the two compared.

 lokatz's gear list:lokatz's gear list
Sony RX100 VII Canon EOS R5 OM-1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 1.4x Teleconverter EC-14 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R +31 more
jwpvb
jwpvb Regular Member • Posts: 124
Re: Nikon D850+500 PF or Canon R5+100-500 - better for birds?

Overall the the Z lenses, including the 70-200mm f/2.8 and the the 24-70mm f/2.8 that I owned, were better than the DSLR lenses (sharpness, color and contrast) in my opinion. Too bad the Z camera was a disappointment for me.

 jwpvb's gear list:jwpvb's gear list
Canon G7 X II Canon EOS R5 Canon RF 35mm F1.8 IS STM Macro Canon RF 70-200mm F2.8L IS USM Canon RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1L IS USM +2 more
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