Cooler or warmer?

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
Glen Barrington
Glen Barrington Forum Pro • Posts: 21,916
Re: I like the OOC one
1

CAcreeks wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

Glen Barrington wrote:

Fotoni wrote:

It seems to be more natural.

But both cooler and warmer have their own strength. Warmer "gives more" and cooler "looks more". Cooler is like colors and warmer is like details or something. Hard to explain.

I agree. The OOC version is darker, more mysterious, both color modified versions seem more open, inviting, and fun.

You crazy. Yuck.

I may be crazy, but this is not proof of that.  I prefer to think of myself as artistically sensitive, wildly creative, and incredibly brilliant.  And don't forget, I DO play a genius on the internet.

Interesting point you bring up. Often my OOC night time shots show greater contrast between blacks and whites before processing and I often wonder if it would be good just to keep that darkness instead of brightening the whole scene.

What does OOC mean? Is that the JPEG preview? Or Lightroom's default conversion?

I prefer the term OOCITH.  Which stands for "Out of the Crapper, Into History!"

 Glen Barrington's gear list:Glen Barrington's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Olympus E-M5 III Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4.0-5.6 +11 more
Lightright
Lightright Regular Member • Posts: 102
Re: Cooler or warmer?
1

Merlin5 wrote:

Hi guys. Hope you don't mind, but would appreciate your opinions in helping me decide which version to go with. I've got another photo I can't decide on the white balance I want. Do you think it looks better cooler or warmer? The first is a cooler white balance temperature at 4550 and more bluey.

The second is warmer at 5333 kelvin and pulls out more orangey or yellowish colours. In some ways I prefer the first because I'm a fan of blue, it's my favourite colour. On the other hand, perhaps the second ones is slightly more subtle and richer in colours. Which do you think is more appealing? I can't decide which one to put on my flickr page. Many thanks for looking.

WB 4550

WB 5333

And for reference, this is the raw image OOC before processing.

It looks like you got it mixed up with the labels. The top photo should be cooler and the bottom one is warmer. Warmer colors are less than 5k kelvin. Overall, I prefer the warmer one with a bit of orange filtered light coming from the clouds on top as the scene transitions into night time.

OP Merlin5 Senior Member • Posts: 1,823
Re: I like the OOC one

CAcreeks wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

Glen Barrington wrote:

Fotoni wrote:

It seems to be more natural.

But both cooler and warmer have their own strength. Warmer "gives more" and cooler "looks more". Cooler is like colors and warmer is like details or something. Hard to explain.

I agree. The OOC version is darker, more mysterious, both color modified versions seem more open, inviting, and fun.

You crazy. Yuck.

Interesting point you bring up. Often my OOC night time shots show greater contrast between blacks and whites before processing and I often wonder if it would be good just to keep that darkness instead of brightening the whole scene.

What does OOC mean? Is that the JPEG preview? Or Lightroom's default conversion?

It means out of camera, i.e, raw file as shot before any processing.

 Merlin5's gear list:Merlin5's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Sony a6600 Tamron SP 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di VC USD Canon EF 50mm F1.8 STM Sigma 16mm F1.4 DC DN (E/EF-M mounts) +2 more
CAcreeks
CAcreeks Forum Pro • Posts: 16,965
Re: I like the OOC one
1

Merlin5 wrote:

What does OOC mean? Is that the JPEG preview? Or Lightroom's default conversion?

It means out of camera, i.e, raw file as shot before any processing.

Aha, OK, thanks. The EXIF said Adobe etc, but I thought you might have shot Raw+JPEG and run the JPEG through Lightroom.

I tried editing in Affinity Photo, but I'm still learning so I was unable to improve your OOC. I'm pretty sure DxO PhotoLab could do a better Raw conversion.

Joachim B Contributing Member • Posts: 865
Re: Cooler or warmer?
3

If given the choice between the two, I would prefer warmer. That's because there is a lot of blue in the image already, and emphasizing that leads to a very saturated, but flatter image. The warmer white balance gives a bit more contrast.

Yet, there are so many nice colour transitions in the image, greens and purples... If I would have the raw file, I would try to get as much emphasis on the different colours in the picture as I could. So instead of only playing with the yellow/blue balance, I would shift a bit to the green side, equalize the histogram a bit, pump up the vibrance and lower the saturation.

Also I would color-tone the image so that the shadows get a bit warmer, and the lights get a bit cooler tones.

When I do this to your JPG output, this is te result. I still don't really like the dark patches in the middle, but that's all the JPG has in it. For fixing those I would need the extra headroom the raw file probably has.

Jack Sofield Senior Member • Posts: 2,695
Re: Cooler or warmer?
2

Finally, someone caught the temperature error. Just remember that incandescent light is warmer at 3200 degrees k and daylight which is cooler is 5500-6000 deg.

-- hide signature --

Always teach for understanding, not agreement.
JC Sofield
www.pbase.com/jcsofield

 Jack Sofield's gear list:Jack Sofield's gear list
Canon EOS 20D Canon EOS 80D Canon EOS 90D Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM +3 more
Joachim B Contributing Member • Posts: 865
Re: Cooler or warmer?
1

Well, 'warm' and 'cool' are definitions we as people use to describe how we 'feel' about a colour. The Kelvin notation is a scientific way to describe the light frequency a radiator with a certain temperature would give off, but it doesn't say anything about context, or about relative warmth of colours.

Normally the goal of pulling those WB-sliders is to get a good representation of neutral grey, in the scientific way mostly. And which way you pull them is dependent on the cast light.

In this picture, there are multiple light sources, some direct and more on the high end of the spectrum, and some ambient and on the lower end. So you cannot give one 'correct' temperature for all of the image.

So, there's nothing wrong in getting creative here, and choosing settings that bring out the best of the picture without trying to be 'correct'.

Lightright
Lightright Regular Member • Posts: 102
Re: Cooler or warmer?
1

Joachim B wrote:

Well, 'warm' and 'cool' are definitions we as people use to describe how we 'feel' about a colour. The Kelvin notation is a scientific way to describe the light frequency a radiator with a certain temperature would give off, but it doesn't say anything about context, or about relative warmth of colours.

Normally the goal of pulling those WB-sliders is to get a good representation of neutral grey, in the scientific way mostly. And which way you pull them is dependent on the cast light.

In this picture, there are multiple light sources, some direct and more on the high end of the spectrum, and some ambient and on the lower end. So you cannot give one 'correct' temperature for all of the image.

So, there's nothing wrong in getting creative here, and choosing settings that bring out the best of the picture without trying to be 'correct'.

Blue light actually corresponds to shorter wavelengths and are far more energetic. They burn much hotter just like the blue flames coming out from the stove. In astronomy, blue stars are the hottest while red dwarfs are the coolest.

This actually got me confused after learning the color wheel. Warm colors are red, yellow and orange while cool ones are green, blue and violet. The opposite is actually scientifically accurate.

Joachim B Contributing Member • Posts: 865
Re: Cooler or warmer?
1

Lightright wrote:

Joachim B wrote:

Well, 'warm' and 'cool' are definitions we as people use to describe how we 'feel' about a colour. The Kelvin notation is a scientific way to describe the light frequency a radiator with a certain temperature would give off, but it doesn't say anything about context, or about relative warmth of colours.

Normally the goal of pulling those WB-sliders is to get a good representation of neutral grey, in the scientific way mostly. And which way you pull them is dependent on the cast light.

In this picture, there are multiple light sources, some direct and more on the high end of the spectrum, and some ambient and on the lower end. So you cannot give one 'correct' temperature for all of the image.

So, there's nothing wrong in getting creative here, and choosing settings that bring out the best of the picture without trying to be 'correct'.

Blue light actually corresponds to shorter wavelengths and are far more energetic. They burn much hotter just like the blue flames coming out from the stove. In astronomy, blue stars are the hottest while red dwarfs are the coolest.

This actually got me confused after learning the color wheel. Warm colors are red, yellow and orange while cool ones are green, blue and violet. The opposite is actually scientifically accurate.

True. just as I said, the scientific way and the 'feel' way are completely different concepts.

But for a picture like this, there are 'warm' and 'cool' parts. I think it's not about choosing between those, but about bringing out te best of both, and seeking how they can co-exist in that one picture

OP Merlin5 Senior Member • Posts: 1,823
Re: Cooler or warmer?
1

Joachim B wrote:

If given the choice between the two, I would prefer warmer. That's because there is a lot of blue in the image already, and emphasizing that leads to a very saturated, but flatter image. The warmer white balance gives a bit more contrast.

Yet, there are so many nice colour transitions in the image, greens and purples... If I would have the raw file, I would try to get as much emphasis on the different colours in the picture as I could. So instead of only playing with the yellow/blue balance, I would shift a bit to the green side, equalize the histogram a bit, pump up the vibrance and lower the saturation.

Also I would color-tone the image so that the shadows get a bit warmer, and the lights get a bit cooler tones.

When I do this to your JPG output, this is te result. I still don't really like the dark patches in the middle, but that's all the JPG has in it. For fixing those I would need the extra headroom the raw file probably has.

Wow, that's awesome, even for just a jpg, you've really pulled out better definition of the water reflections. 'And the sky looks much much better. Overall, you've made the tone of the image more sophisticated. You have skills, sir.

Shift a bit to green', would that be with the tint slider and roughly by how much? I get worried when messing too much with tints because I have a bit of a colour blind problem distinguishing shades of greens and yellows. I once got told I'd made a bird a bit green and I didn't even notice.

 Merlin5's gear list:Merlin5's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Sony a6600 Tamron SP 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di VC USD Canon EF 50mm F1.8 STM Sigma 16mm F1.4 DC DN (E/EF-M mounts) +2 more
OP Merlin5 Senior Member • Posts: 1,823
Re: Cooler or warmer?

Lightright wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

Hi guys. Hope you don't mind, but would appreciate your opinions in helping me decide which version to go with. I've got another photo I can't decide on the white balance I want. Do you think it looks better cooler or warmer? The first is a cooler white balance temperature at 4550 and more bluey.

The second is warmer at 5333 kelvin and pulls out more orangey or yellowish colours. In some ways I prefer the first because I'm a fan of blue, it's my favourite colour. On the other hand, perhaps the second ones is slightly more subtle and richer in colours. Which do you think is more appealing? I can't decide which one to put on my flickr page. Many thanks for looking.

WB 4550

WB 5333

And for reference, this is the raw image OOC before processing.

It looks like you got it mixed up with the labels. The top photo should be cooler and the bottom one is warmer. Warmer colors are less than 5k kelvin. Overall, I prefer the warmer one with a bit of orange filtered light coming from the clouds on top as the scene transitions into night time.

So wait, I've chosen the wrong photo then? Everyone here prefers warmer and I took that to mean my middle photo labelled 5333. But since I've misunderstood that warmer is below 5000, then they must have meant the first photo? Although I must say, I think my middle image looks closer to Joachim's edit than my first one.

 Merlin5's gear list:Merlin5's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Sony a6600 Tamron SP 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di VC USD Canon EF 50mm F1.8 STM Sigma 16mm F1.4 DC DN (E/EF-M mounts) +2 more
Joachim B Contributing Member • Posts: 865
Re: Cooler or warmer?
1

Merlin5 wrote:

Wow, that's awesome, even for just a jpg, you've really pulled out better definition of the water reflections. 'And the sky looks much much better. Overall, you've made the tone of the image more sophisticated. You have skills, sir.

Shift a bit to green', would that be with the tint slider and roughly by how much? I get worried when messing too much with tints because I have a bit of a colour blind problem distinguishing shades of greens and yellows. I once got told I'd made a bird a bit green and I didn't even notice.

Ouch, that doesn't help! :-D. I would have to do it again, because I did this one 'on the fly', and didn't save the PSD. Let me try again, and I will send you a screenshot of the setings from ACR. You can copy those in LR if you like.

edit: here you go. It has to be something like this, but you can tweak the shadow and highlight, black and white sliders a bit.

I noticed only now that ACR has dropped the 'temperature' definiton of WB, and put blue and green both on the left, and yellow and red on the right hand side. Cool to warm. :D. Hey, if it's different in your case, just eyeball it.

OP Merlin5 Senior Member • Posts: 1,823
Re: I like the OOC one

CAcreeks wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

What does OOC mean? Is that the JPEG preview? Or Lightroom's default conversion?

It means out of camera, i.e, raw file as shot before any processing.

Aha, OK, thanks. The EXIF said Adobe etc, but I thought you might have shot Raw+JPEG and run the JPEG through Lightroom.

I tried editing in Affinity Photo, but I'm still learning so I was unable to improve your OOC. I'm pretty sure DxO PhotoLab could do a better Raw conversion.

Sorry, I missed this post, and that edit looks good too, although a little dark for me.

 Merlin5's gear list:Merlin5's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Sony a6600 Tamron SP 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di VC USD Canon EF 50mm F1.8 STM Sigma 16mm F1.4 DC DN (E/EF-M mounts) +2 more
OP Merlin5 Senior Member • Posts: 1,823
Re: Cooler or warmer?

Joachim B wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

Wow, that's awesome, even for just a jpg, you've really pulled out better definition of the water reflections. 'And the sky looks much much better. Overall, you've made the tone of the image more sophisticated. You have skills, sir.

Shift a bit to green', would that be with the tint slider and roughly by how much? I get worried when messing too much with tints because I have a bit of a colour blind problem distinguishing shades of greens and yellows. I once got told I'd made a bird a bit green and I didn't even notice.

Ouch, that doesn't help! :-D. I would have to do it again, because I did this one 'on the fly', and didn't save the PSD. Let me try again, and I will send you a screenshot of the setings from ACR. You can copy those in LR if you like.

edit: here you go. It has to be something like this, but you can tweak the shadow and highlight, black and white sliders a bit.

Oh excellent, thank you! I'll try those settings now. But I don't have the colour grading in my LR as per your penultimate screenshot. Could that be substituted with the Tone Curve panel? But I'd need numbers to adjust the point curve line to. Also, on the white balance panel, my raw image defaults at temp 4550 and tint +10. Would I use your settings to add 31 to the temp, making it 4581 and minus 30 to the tint to make it -20?

 Merlin5's gear list:Merlin5's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Sony a6600 Tamron SP 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di VC USD Canon EF 50mm F1.8 STM Sigma 16mm F1.4 DC DN (E/EF-M mounts) +2 more
Joachim B Contributing Member • Posts: 865
Re: Cooler or warmer?
1

Merlin5 wrote:

So wait, I've chosen the wrong photo then? Everyone here prefers warmer and I took that to mean my middle photo labelled 5333. But since I've misunderstood that warmer is below 5000, then they must have meant the first photo? Although I must say, I think my middle image looks closer to Joachim's edit than my first one.

The middle one is definitively more yellow, could it be that you've switched the color temperatures by accident while posting this?

Joachim B Contributing Member • Posts: 865
Re: Cooler or warmer?
1

Merlin5 wrote:

Joachim B wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

Wow, that's awesome, even for just a jpg, you've really pulled out better definition of the water reflections. 'And the sky looks much much better. Overall, you've made the tone of the image more sophisticated. You have skills, sir.

Shift a bit to green', would that be with the tint slider and roughly by how much? I get worried when messing too much with tints because I have a bit of a colour blind problem distinguishing shades of greens and yellows. I once got told I'd made a bird a bit green and I didn't even notice.

Ouch, that doesn't help! :-D. I would have to do it again, because I did this one 'on the fly', and didn't save the PSD. Let me try again, and I will send you a screenshot of the setings from ACR. You can copy those in LR if you like.

edit: here you go. It has to be something like this, but you can tweak the shadow and highlight, black and white sliders a bit.

Oh excellent, thank you! I'll try those settings now. But I don't have the colour grading in my LR as per your penultimate screenshot. Could that be substituted with the Tone Curve panel? But I'd need numbers to adjust the point curve line to. Also, on the white balance panel, my raw image defaults at temp 4550 and tint +10. Would I use your settings to add 31 to the temp, making it 4581 and minus 30 to the tint to make it -20?

In older LR-versions you should use Split Toning as a grading device. Plug in a very desaturated orange/yellow for the shadows, and a very desaturated green/blue in the highlights. then balance it a bit to favor the shadows

In the new color grading tool, you have to look at the little circle inside the bigger ones to see what colors i've used. The little circles on the outside are the hue, and the further in you go, the more desaturated those hues get.

For the WB, I would just eyeball it. In my version, lightroom takes the middle of the yellow/blue scale te be 0, and you have 100% to either side. So don't look at temperature, but from the middle, go about 1/3 to the yellow side of the scale.

OP Merlin5 Senior Member • Posts: 1,823
Re: Cooler or warmer?
1

Joachim B wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

So wait, I've chosen the wrong photo then? Everyone here prefers warmer and I took that to mean my middle photo labelled 5333. But since I've misunderstood that warmer is below 5000, then they must have meant the first photo? Although I must say, I think my middle image looks closer to Joachim's edit than my first one.

The middle one is definitively more yellow, could it be that you've switched the color temperatures by accident while posting this?

Well the middle one is 5333 and the first one is more bluey at 4550, the rest of the LR settings are identical for each version. I'm a bit confused though. I pushed the slider to the right from 4550 to 5333 and it made it more yellow. To my mind, the 4550 is so blue I'd have said it's cooler, and the 5333 is warmer. So I'm not understanding how under 5000 is regarded as warmer?

Thanks for the advice on the split toning desaturation, I'll do that too. I must admit I've hardly ever used split tone so this will be a good time to get more familiar with it.

 Merlin5's gear list:Merlin5's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Sony a6600 Tamron SP 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di VC USD Canon EF 50mm F1.8 STM Sigma 16mm F1.4 DC DN (E/EF-M mounts) +2 more
Joachim B Contributing Member • Posts: 865
Re: Cooler or warmer?

Merlin5 wrote:

Joachim B wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

So wait, I've chosen the wrong photo then? Everyone here prefers warmer and I took that to mean my middle photo labelled 5333. But since I've misunderstood that warmer is below 5000, then they must have meant the first photo? Although I must say, I think my middle image looks closer to Joachim's edit than my first one.

The middle one is definitively more yellow, could it be that you've switched the color temperatures by accident while posting this?

Well the middle one is 5333 and the first one is more bluey at 4550, the rest of the LR settings are identical for each version. I'm a bit confused though. I pushed the slider to the right from 4550 to 5333 and it made it more yellow. To my mind, the 4550 is so blue I'd have said it's cooler, and the 5333 is warmer. So I'm not understanding how under 5000 is regarded as warmer?

Thanks for the advice on the split toning desaturation, I'll do that too. I must admit I've hardly ever used split tone so this will be a good time to get more familiar with it.

Weird... but hey, just another reason to practice your eyeballing!

The tint slider already is an absolute value, so if yours is at +10, you should pull it to -30 to get the result I got. No need for math.

What split toning and color grading for that matter do, is add a certain color to the darker or lighter parts of the image. Especially nice in B/W photography, to get a picture from pure greyscale to a more lifelike tinted version to emulate film.

The color grading tool is much more advanced, but split toning will do just fine here. The more saturated the color you choose, the more the grading will stand out in your picture. Here I just used it subtly to warm up the shadows just a bit, and cool down the highlights. Play with it a bit.

OP Merlin5 Senior Member • Posts: 1,823
Re: Cooler or warmer?

Joachim B wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

Joachim B wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

So wait, I've chosen the wrong photo then? Everyone here prefers warmer and I took that to mean my middle photo labelled 5333. But since I've misunderstood that warmer is below 5000, then they must have meant the first photo? Although I must say, I think my middle image looks closer to Joachim's edit than my first one.

The middle one is definitively more yellow, could it be that you've switched the color temperatures by accident while posting this?

Well the middle one is 5333 and the first one is more bluey at 4550, the rest of the LR settings are identical for each version. I'm a bit confused though. I pushed the slider to the right from 4550 to 5333 and it made it more yellow. To my mind, the 4550 is so blue I'd have said it's cooler, and the 5333 is warmer. So I'm not understanding how under 5000 is regarded as warmer?

Thanks for the advice on the split toning desaturation, I'll do that too. I must admit I've hardly ever used split tone so this will be a good time to get more familiar with it.

Weird... but hey, just another reason to practice your eyeballing!

The tint slider already is an absolute value, so if yours is at +10, you should pull it to -30 to get the result I got. No need for math.

What split toning and color grading for that matter do, is add a certain color to the darker or lighter parts of the image. Especially nice in B/W photography, to get a picture from pure greyscale to a more lifelike tinted version to emulate film.

The color grading tool is much more advanced, but split toning will do just fine here. The more saturated the color you choose, the more the grading will stand out in your picture. Here I just used it subtly to warm up the shadows just a bit, and cool down the highlights. Play with it a bit.

Thanks. I've started copying your settings into lightroom. I'm up to the dehaze slider. I didn't use that in mine and you use more clarity than i did, and I can see a big difference in the sky detail now just with those!  I'll continue and then hopefully post another version shortly.

 Merlin5's gear list:Merlin5's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Sony a6600 Tamron SP 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di VC USD Canon EF 50mm F1.8 STM Sigma 16mm F1.4 DC DN (E/EF-M mounts) +2 more
Joachim B Contributing Member • Posts: 865
Re: Cooler or warmer?

Merlin5 wrote:

Joachim B wrote:

Merlin5 wrote:

So wait, I've chosen the wrong photo then? Everyone here prefers warmer and I took that to mean my middle photo labelled 5333. But since I've misunderstood that warmer is below 5000, then they must have meant the first photo? Although I must say, I think my middle image looks closer to Joachim's edit than my first one.

The middle one is definitively more yellow, could it be that you've switched the color temperatures by accident while posting this?

Well the middle one is 5333 and the first one is more bluey at 4550, the rest of the LR settings are identical for each version. I'm a bit confused though. I pushed the slider to the right from 4550 to 5333 and it made it more yellow. To my mind, the 4550 is so blue I'd have said it's cooler, and the 5333 is warmer. So I'm not understanding how under 5000 is regarded as warmer?

Thanks for the advice on the split toning desaturation, I'll do that too. I must admit I've hardly ever used split tone so this will be a good time to get more familiar with it.

In my LR-classic it is the same! weird that they are doing it that way. The only reason I can imagine, is that the temperature given is the color of the light to correct for. So for a lightsource of 6500K (blueish), you would correct to neutral by making the image more yellow.

That's also the way your WB-settings work in-camera. You specify the temperature and the kind of the lighting, and the camera corrects for that. It would be a bit weird if you would have to enter te correction value beforehand.

So the temperature is what the computer gets as info, and the hue on the slider is what the computer adds to get back to neutral...

But maybe that's just how I make sense of it in my head. I don't really look at the temperature anyway when correcting.

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads