Nikon Z Answers You Want Locked

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MrHollywood
MrHollywood Senior Member • Posts: 3,808
Nikon Z Answers You Want

1) Is Nikon in trouble?  No, not really. Nikon retains a massive market share of close to 20% and currently is poised to release a flurry of lenses and bodies. They are making considerable adjustments, which are sensible, to maintain a strong position. Given how small they are relative to Canon and Sony, their strong position is testimony to how solid their lineup of products continues to be. Oh, and Nikon stock is a buy. Fuji, meanwhile, seems pretty happy with their share of under 4%. There's a lot of meat left on the table, folks.

2) Did Nikon drop the ball recently? No. Nikon said they'd release 12 new lenses this year and it's May 6th. So unless this is a VERY short year, or you have math impairments, Nikon has yet to drop anything.

3) When will Nikon build a mirrorless camera to equal the D850? Never. The current Z7II bests the D850 in almost every way. The D850 continues to hold a small edge in subject tracking, while the Z7II wins in virtually every other metric we consider important. As the d850 is now an "old" camera, we should not be shocked that the Z7II is a stronger and faster evolving camera.

4) Did glass stop being important? You'd think so with so much emphasis on "idiot modes" in the latest bodies. One thing is certain: The differences between top level glass and consumer glass continues to shrink. But the fact remains that the Z system offers truly exotic level performance that most of the competition and the latest F glass cannot match. Whether or not this is worth it for the end user is a personal decision.

5) Is the DSLR dead? Of course it is. But they'll be around for a while yet and people will make beautiful art with them long after the last one is sold.

Have a great day!

Robert

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Nikon D850
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jcb9001 Regular Member • Posts: 118
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

Okay, those are the answers I want.

Where are the answers that line up with reality?

MrHollywood
OP MrHollywood Senior Member • Posts: 3,808
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

jcb9001 wrote:

Okay, those are the answers I want.

Where are the answers that line up with reality?

LOL!

Happy to tell you that they are the reality, regardless of what trolls, rumor sites and brand warriors like to post.

How do I know this? Well, I own the gear discussed. I also have family working at Nikon USA. I've done well with Nikon stock and I'm a sensible person who's not "married" to any particular camera.

One only need look at the silly thread about Nikon "dropping the ball" for evidence of how off-base people are in these forums.

Cheers,

Robert

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michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 15,381
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

You miss the point regarding whether a Z camera will be released that "equals the D850".  People aren't referring to a better camera when they raise that question.  They're talking about a combination of features, in addition to performance specs, that at least equals the D850.  Of course the Z II bodies are going to beat a 4 year old D850 in many performance specs.  But that's not the point.

Let's take a look at tracking mode as just one example.  Forget about how well the Z bodies track AF.  The AF tracking mode itself is considered to be flawed by many on Z bodies.  Until Nikon implements AF tracking in the same way as in the D bodies you'll have people complaining that the Z7 camera is not the equivalent of the D850.

I would agree with your idea that there will never be a D850 "equal" in a Z body.  But for different reasons.  They're different technologies, a DSLR vs mirrorless.  I don't expect Nikon to create a D850 in a mirrorless camera.  My own opinion is that people waiting for a "true D850" replacement are going to be disappointed in the same way that the "true D700" replacement never arrived.

For me, whether it's a Z7 III or a Z8, I don't care.  Either of those cameras to me will probably have me putting the D850 away for good.  But that doesn't mean they will be accepted as D850 equals.

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Mike Dawson

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Joop_S Regular Member • Posts: 496
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

MrHollywood wrote:

1) Is Nikon in trouble? No, not really. Nikon retains a massive market share of close to 20% and currently is poised to release a flurry of lenses and bodies. They are making considerable adjustments, which are sensible, to maintain a strong position. Given how small they are relative to Canon and Sony, their strong position is testimony to how solid their lineup of products continues to be. Oh, and Nikon stock is a buy. Fuji, meanwhile, seems pretty happy with their share of under 4%. There's a lot of meat left on the table, folks.

2) Did Nikon drop the ball recently? No. Nikon said they'd release 12 new lenses this year and it's May 6th. So unless this is a VERY short year, or you have math impairments, Nikon has yet to drop anything.

Not this year, it is this FY ending at 2022-3-31

3) When will Nikon build a mirrorless camera to equal the D850? Never. The current Z7II bests the D850 in almost every way. The D850 continues to hold a small edge in subject tracking, while the Z7II wins in virtually every other metric we consider important. As the d850 is now an "old" camera, we should not be shocked that the Z7II is a stronger and faster evolving camera.

4) Did glass stop being important? You'd think so with so much emphasis on "idiot modes" in the latest bodies. One thing is certain: The differences between top level glass and consumer glass continues to shrink. But the fact remains that the Z system offers truly exotic level performance that most of the competition and the latest F glass cannot match. Whether or not this is worth it for the end user is a personal decision.

5) Is the DSLR dead? Of course it is. But they'll be around for a while yet and people will make beautiful art with them long after the last one is sold.

For Nikon it is not, with 2 new DSRLs and an excellent new 120-300 lens in 2020.  Only if they don't make a D7 in 2025/26 and Canon do the same with the DSRLs then you can say it. But I know that Canon is working on a new pro DSRL. I know that the consumers DSRLs are dead for Nikon and Canon, but not the pro DSRLs.

Have a great day!

Robert

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JasonTheBirder
JasonTheBirder Senior Member • Posts: 1,795
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

MrHollywood wrote:

jcb9001 wrote:

Okay, those are the answers I want.

Where are the answers that line up with reality?

LOL!

Happy to tell you that they are the reality, regardless of what trolls, rumor sites and brand warriors like to post.

How do I know this? Well, I own the gear discussed. I also have family working at Nikon USA. I've done well with Nikon stock and I'm a sensible person who's not "married" to any particular camera.

I don't even think you need family working at Nikon to know how arbitrary and factitious the clickbait articles are. I mean, it's ridiculous. If any of those "writers" knew anything, they'd be shorting stock in the shadows instead of acting as human random number generators for ad revenue.

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MrHollywood
OP MrHollywood Senior Member • Posts: 3,808
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

michaeladawson wrote:

You miss the point regarding whether a Z camera will be released that "equals the D850". People aren't referring to a better camera when they raise that question. They're talking about a combination of features, in addition to performance specs, that at least equals the D850. Of course the Z II bodies are going to beat a 4 year old D850 in many performance specs. But that's not the point.

The problem here is that the D850 remains an INFERIOR camera compared to the Z7II. Expected or not, this is factual for a majority of shooters. How many people have proven that the Z7II and Z6II EXCEED the AF capabilities of the D850? I've used them side-by-side and the Z7II is more accurate, has eye-af, doesn't require AF tuning, uses superior glass, offers IBIS, etc. I'm sorry, but it's NOT a contest where the D850 wins much.

Let's take a look at tracking mode as just one example. Forget about how well the Z bodies track AF. The AF tracking mode itself is considered to be flawed by many on Z bodies. Until Nikon implements AF tracking in the same way as in the D bodies you'll have people complaining that the Z7 camera is not the equivalent of the D850.

Mike, I shot these cameras for weeks side by side. Once I learned how they differed, I did fine with the Z7II tracking. How many threads with SAMPLES have to be posted before people realize that the Z7II is more than capable? How many threads from NON Z7II owners parroting nonsense have to be posted before the message comes through.

The D850 is, by any sensible definition, very dated tech. It does one thing marginally "better" which might matter to a fairly small group of people. And again, overall the AF capabilities are superior for the Z. The most tracking complaints I see are from non-owners who "tried" the Z or read about it or even videos where I can clearly see they haven't learned what to do.

I would agree with your idea that there will never be a D850 "equal" in a Z body. But for different reasons. They're different technologies, a DSLR vs mirrorless. I don't expect Nikon to create a D850 in a mirrorless camera. My own opinion is that people waiting for a "true D850" replacement are going to be disappointed in the same way that the "true D700" replacement never arrived.

I loved my D700. But the D800, D810 and D850 sure got me past missing the D700. Call me crazy, but I'll always prefer a better camera.

For me, whether it's a Z7 III or a Z8, I don't care. Either of those cameras to me will probably have me putting the D850 away for good. But that doesn't mean they will be accepted as D850 equals.

The word "equal" is the issue. For some it sounds as though the D850 is being set on a pedestal. But the truth is that it's a dated and now inferior camera.

Again, how many times do we read "Got the Z7II and sold my D850."??? It doesn't take long. In my case about three weeks before I accepted that the D850 was a paperweight.

For the Z7II to "equal" the D850, I'd have to smash the Z7II against the wall! LOL....okay, that's a bit extreme because, of course, the D850 is a terrific camera and will remain so.

I'm anxious to pick up the next mirrorless from Nikon, but good-lord, this Z7II is amazing! I've never had a camera with so few compromises and that's a pretty special thing.

Robert

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 21,786
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

jcb9001 wrote:

Where are the answers that line up with reality?

Maybe you either do not want to acknowledge or do not recognise reality - even when it is right there in front of you 

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Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

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Dan DeLion Contributing Member • Posts: 976
Great Post!

MrHollywood wrote:

1) Is Nikon in trouble? No, not really. Nikon retains a massive market share of close to 20% and currently is poised to release a flurry of lenses and bodies. They are making considerable adjustments, which are sensible, to maintain a strong position. Given how small they are relative to Canon and Sony, their strong position is testimony to how solid their lineup of products continues to be. Oh, and Nikon stock is a buy. Fuji, meanwhile, seems pretty happy with their share of under 4%. There's a lot of meat left on the table, folks.

2) Did Nikon drop the ball recently? No. Nikon said they'd release 12 new lenses this year and it's May 6th. So unless this is a VERY short year, or you have math impairments, Nikon has yet to drop anything.

3) When will Nikon build a mirrorless camera to equal the D850? Never. The current Z7II bests the D850 in almost every way. The D850 continues to hold a small edge in subject tracking, while the Z7II wins in virtually every other metric we consider important. As the d850 is now an "old" camera, we should not be shocked that the Z7II is a stronger and faster evolving camera.

4) Did glass stop being important? You'd think so with so much emphasis on "idiot modes" in the latest bodies. One thing is certain: The differences between top level glass and consumer glass continues to shrink. But the fact remains that the Z system offers truly exotic level performance that most of the competition and the latest F glass cannot match. Whether or not this is worth it for the end user is a personal decision.

5) Is the DSLR dead? Of course it is. But they'll be around for a while yet and people will make beautiful art with them long after the last one is sold.

Have a great day!

Robert

Hi Robert – Great post! I’ve hardly touched my D850 or D750 for 2.5 years. But, I do have 150,000 exposures on my Z7. Remarkably, the Z7ii is even better. Combining these bodies with the world class leading Z-S glass makes the finest system I've ever used!

Stay safe - Dan

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Don Simpson Forum Member • Posts: 91
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

It would be interesting if dpReview added a "Views" column to its forums. It might give an additional indicator of interest in a thread vs. "Replies".

Threads like this one get attention because the underlying reason is that Nikon has not been delivering Z line products in a timely fashion. There is a lot of frustration in these posts that can devolve into arguments some interesting, some not.

I think the only answer the Z crowd (including me) is looking for are some products on the shelf, and not announcements. The rest is just marking time.

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MrHollywood
OP MrHollywood Senior Member • Posts: 3,808
Re: Great Post!

Dan DeLion wrote:

MrHollywood wrote:

1) Is Nikon in trouble? No, not really. Nikon retains a massive market share of close to 20% and currently is poised to release a flurry of lenses and bodies. They are making considerable adjustments, which are sensible, to maintain a strong position. Given how small they are relative to Canon and Sony, their strong position is testimony to how solid their lineup of products continues to be. Oh, and Nikon stock is a buy. Fuji, meanwhile, seems pretty happy with their share of under 4%. There's a lot of meat left on the table, folks.

2) Did Nikon drop the ball recently? No. Nikon said they'd release 12 new lenses this year and it's May 6th. So unless this is a VERY short year, or you have math impairments, Nikon has yet to drop anything.

3) When will Nikon build a mirrorless camera to equal the D850? Never. The current Z7II bests the D850 in almost every way. The D850 continues to hold a small edge in subject tracking, while the Z7II wins in virtually every other metric we consider important. As the d850 is now an "old" camera, we should not be shocked that the Z7II is a stronger and faster evolving camera.

4) Did glass stop being important? You'd think so with so much emphasis on "idiot modes" in the latest bodies. One thing is certain: The differences between top level glass and consumer glass continues to shrink. But the fact remains that the Z system offers truly exotic level performance that most of the competition and the latest F glass cannot match. Whether or not this is worth it for the end user is a personal decision.

5) Is the DSLR dead? Of course it is. But they'll be around for a while yet and people will make beautiful art with them long after the last one is sold.

Have a great day!

Robert

Hi Robert – Great post! I’ve hardly touched my D850 or D750 for 2.5 years. But, I do have 150,000 exposures on my Z7. Remarkably, the Z7ii is even better. Combining these bodies with the world class leading Z-S glass makes the finest system I've ever used!

Stay safe - Dan

Yup...I was slower to read the writing on the wall. I briefly clung to my DSLRs in defiance! LOL!

I think the 1st eye-opening moment was actually buying the Fuji X100v and then borrowing a Z6.  So I was like, "Oh, wow, I get it now."

But I kept going with my D850 because the original Z's had no grip option and single card slots.

Now I'm sold! The Z7II with the 24-70 2.8 S is just about perfect. And as I've said before, gaining IBIS with a beautiful optic like the Sigma 135mm 1.8 ART almost seems criminally too good to be true. I fact, I went from rarely shooting the 135 on the D850 to using it frequently on the Z7II. That's how big the advantage can be. Hit ratios across the board are higher. I have a few gripes (like switching AF modes!) but you learn to work around them.

Robert

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MrHollywood
OP MrHollywood Senior Member • Posts: 3,808
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

Don Simpson wrote:

It would be interesting if dpReview added a "Views" column to its forums. It might give an additional indicator of interest in a thread vs. "Replies".

Threads like this one get attention because the underlying reason is that Nikon has not been delivering Z line products in a timely fashion. There is a lot of frustration in these posts that can devolve into arguments some interesting, some not.

I think the only answer the Z crowd (including me) is looking for are some products on the shelf, and not announcements. The rest is just marking time.

I'm pretty happy with my Z7II system and will be adding a pair of Z6II cameras as well.

That said, I fully appreciate the frustration, especially regarding longer lenses missing from the Z lineup.

But I really think this will be nicely handled VERY soon. This system is already amazing, but it's about to explode in all the ways we'd hope for. Nikon has a habit of waking up in a big way as they roll through their development cycles.

Robert

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sirhawkeye64 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,126
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

MrHollywood wrote:

1) Is Nikon in trouble? No, not really. Nikon retains a massive market share of close to 20% and currently is poised to release a flurry of lenses and bodies. They are making considerable adjustments, which are sensible, to maintain a strong position. Given how small they are relative to Canon and Sony, their strong position is testimony to how solid their lineup of products continues to be. Oh, and Nikon stock is a buy. Fuji, meanwhile, seems pretty happy with their share of under 4%. There's a lot of meat left on the table, folks.

2) Did Nikon drop the ball recently? No. Nikon said they'd release 12 new lenses this year and it's May 6th. So unless this is a VERY short year, or you have math impairments, Nikon has yet to drop anything.

3) When will Nikon build a mirrorless camera to equal the D850? Never. The current Z7II bests the D850 in almost every way. The D850 continues to hold a small edge in subject tracking, while the Z7II wins in virtually every other metric we consider important. As the d850 is now an "old" camera, we should not be shocked that the Z7II is a stronger and faster evolving camera.

4) Did glass stop being important? You'd think so with so much emphasis on "idiot modes" in the latest bodies. One thing is certain: The differences between top level glass and consumer glass continues to shrink. But the fact remains that the Z system offers truly exotic level performance that most of the competition and the latest F glass cannot match. Whether or not this is worth it for the end user is a personal decision.

5) Is the DSLR dead? Of course it is. But they'll be around for a while yet and people will make beautiful art with them long after the last one is sold.

Have a great day!

Robert

One thing i think people forget is that while market share is good, being profitable is more important.  You can be successful with just, say, 10% market share.  Or you can be in trouble with 50% market share if your profits aren't high enough or you're breaking even versus the company that is making a 10% profits with just a measly 5-10% of the market.  So people forget that.  They equate market share = profitability which isn't always the case.

And sometimes the smaller companies can be more profitable than the larger ones because they have less overhead to take care of too.

Fuji is a good example of a big name, but with smaller market share, and I think they're OK with that.  Of course they are competing in markets that Sony, Canon and Nikon aren't in (ie. medium format) and making that market more affordable to the masses.

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MrHollywood
OP MrHollywood Senior Member • Posts: 3,808
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

sirhawkeye64 wrote:

MrHollywood wrote:

1) Is Nikon in trouble? No, not really. Nikon retains a massive market share of close to 20% and currently is poised to release a flurry of lenses and bodies. They are making considerable adjustments, which are sensible, to maintain a strong position. Given how small they are relative to Canon and Sony, their strong position is testimony to how solid their lineup of products continues to be. Oh, and Nikon stock is a buy. Fuji, meanwhile, seems pretty happy with their share of under 4%. There's a lot of meat left on the table, folks.

2) Did Nikon drop the ball recently? No. Nikon said they'd release 12 new lenses this year and it's May 6th. So unless this is a VERY short year, or you have math impairments, Nikon has yet to drop anything.

3) When will Nikon build a mirrorless camera to equal the D850? Never. The current Z7II bests the D850 in almost every way. The D850 continues to hold a small edge in subject tracking, while the Z7II wins in virtually every other metric we consider important. As the d850 is now an "old" camera, we should not be shocked that the Z7II is a stronger and faster evolving camera.

4) Did glass stop being important? You'd think so with so much emphasis on "idiot modes" in the latest bodies. One thing is certain: The differences between top level glass and consumer glass continues to shrink. But the fact remains that the Z system offers truly exotic level performance that most of the competition and the latest F glass cannot match. Whether or not this is worth it for the end user is a personal decision.

5) Is the DSLR dead? Of course it is. But they'll be around for a while yet and people will make beautiful art with them long after the last one is sold.

Have a great day!

Robert

One thing i think people forget is that while market share is good, being profitable is more important. You can be successful with just, say, 10% market share. Or you can be in trouble with 50% market share if your profits aren't high enough or you're breaking even versus the company that is making a 10% profits with just a measly 5-10% of the market. So people forget that. They equate market share = profitability which isn't always the case.

And sometimes the smaller companies can be more profitable than the larger ones because they have less overhead to take care of too.

Fuji is a good example of a big name, but with smaller market share, and I think they're OK with that. Of course they are competing in markets that Sony, Canon and Nikon aren't in (ie. medium format) and making that market more affordable to the masses.

All good points. But Nikon's position is fairly strong as they work to consolidate and centralize. Their products are strong and gaining momentum.

Robert

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sirhawkeye64 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,126
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

MrHollywood wrote:

sirhawkeye64 wrote:

MrHollywood wrote:

1) Is Nikon in trouble? No, not really. Nikon retains a massive market share of close to 20% and currently is poised to release a flurry of lenses and bodies. They are making considerable adjustments, which are sensible, to maintain a strong position. Given how small they are relative to Canon and Sony, their strong position is testimony to how solid their lineup of products continues to be. Oh, and Nikon stock is a buy. Fuji, meanwhile, seems pretty happy with their share of under 4%. There's a lot of meat left on the table, folks.

2) Did Nikon drop the ball recently? No. Nikon said they'd release 12 new lenses this year and it's May 6th. So unless this is a VERY short year, or you have math impairments, Nikon has yet to drop anything.

3) When will Nikon build a mirrorless camera to equal the D850? Never. The current Z7II bests the D850 in almost every way. The D850 continues to hold a small edge in subject tracking, while the Z7II wins in virtually every other metric we consider important. As the d850 is now an "old" camera, we should not be shocked that the Z7II is a stronger and faster evolving camera.

4) Did glass stop being important? You'd think so with so much emphasis on "idiot modes" in the latest bodies. One thing is certain: The differences between top level glass and consumer glass continues to shrink. But the fact remains that the Z system offers truly exotic level performance that most of the competition and the latest F glass cannot match. Whether or not this is worth it for the end user is a personal decision.

5) Is the DSLR dead? Of course it is. But they'll be around for a while yet and people will make beautiful art with them long after the last one is sold.

Have a great day!

Robert

One thing i think people forget is that while market share is good, being profitable is more important. You can be successful with just, say, 10% market share. Or you can be in trouble with 50% market share if your profits aren't high enough or you're breaking even versus the company that is making a 10% profits with just a measly 5-10% of the market. So people forget that. They equate market share = profitability which isn't always the case.

And sometimes the smaller companies can be more profitable than the larger ones because they have less overhead to take care of too.

Fuji is a good example of a big name, but with smaller market share, and I think they're OK with that. Of course they are competing in markets that Sony, Canon and Nikon aren't in (ie. medium format) and making that market more affordable to the masses.

All good points. But Nikon's position is fairly strong as they work to consolidate and centralize. Their products are strong and gaining momentum.

Robert

Yes, but they do need to at least give some insight into some of the anticipated lenses.  If they don't, people are going to assume that they aren't following through with what they say... such as the 12 lenses that are supposed to be released in 2021-2022.  Of course they still have time, but we are about 1/3 of the way through 2021 already.  Even a teaser with sparse details would at least keep people interested.

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MrHollywood
OP MrHollywood Senior Member • Posts: 3,808
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

sirhawkeye64 wrote:

MrHollywood wrote:

sirhawkeye64 wrote:

MrHollywood wrote:

1) Is Nikon in trouble? No, not really. Nikon retains a massive market share of close to 20% and currently is poised to release a flurry of lenses and bodies. They are making considerable adjustments, which are sensible, to maintain a strong position. Given how small they are relative to Canon and Sony, their strong position is testimony to how solid their lineup of products continues to be. Oh, and Nikon stock is a buy. Fuji, meanwhile, seems pretty happy with their share of under 4%. There's a lot of meat left on the table, folks.

2) Did Nikon drop the ball recently? No. Nikon said they'd release 12 new lenses this year and it's May 6th. So unless this is a VERY short year, or you have math impairments, Nikon has yet to drop anything.

3) When will Nikon build a mirrorless camera to equal the D850? Never. The current Z7II bests the D850 in almost every way. The D850 continues to hold a small edge in subject tracking, while the Z7II wins in virtually every other metric we consider important. As the d850 is now an "old" camera, we should not be shocked that the Z7II is a stronger and faster evolving camera.

4) Did glass stop being important? You'd think so with so much emphasis on "idiot modes" in the latest bodies. One thing is certain: The differences between top level glass and consumer glass continues to shrink. But the fact remains that the Z system offers truly exotic level performance that most of the competition and the latest F glass cannot match. Whether or not this is worth it for the end user is a personal decision.

5) Is the DSLR dead? Of course it is. But they'll be around for a while yet and people will make beautiful art with them long after the last one is sold.

Have a great day!

Robert

One thing i think people forget is that while market share is good, being profitable is more important. You can be successful with just, say, 10% market share. Or you can be in trouble with 50% market share if your profits aren't high enough or you're breaking even versus the company that is making a 10% profits with just a measly 5-10% of the market. So people forget that. They equate market share = profitability which isn't always the case.

And sometimes the smaller companies can be more profitable than the larger ones because they have less overhead to take care of too.

Fuji is a good example of a big name, but with smaller market share, and I think they're OK with that. Of course they are competing in markets that Sony, Canon and Nikon aren't in (ie. medium format) and making that market more affordable to the masses.

All good points. But Nikon's position is fairly strong as they work to consolidate and centralize. Their products are strong and gaining momentum.

Robert

Yes, but they do need to at least give some insight into some of the anticipated lenses. If they don't, people are going to assume that they aren't following through with what they say... such as the 12 lenses that are supposed to be released in 2021-2022. Of course they still have time, but we are about 1/3 of the way through 2021 already. Even a teaser with sparse details would at least keep people interested.

I agree, but it seems that Nikon has a long history of playing this game. Perhaps it's not to their advantage.

Nikon has always appeared to hold the position that they're doing us a favor with any announcements or releases!

My prediction is that we'll all be pretty happy before the 12 months are up.

Robert

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 MrHollywood's gear list:MrHollywood's gear list
Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S 70-200mm F2.8E FL ED VR Nikon 200-500mm F5.6E ED VR Sigma 35mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Sony RX100 VI +19 more
Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 21,786
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

sirhawkeye64 wrote:

Yes, but they do need to at least give some insight into some of the anticipated lenses. If they don't, people are going to assume that they aren't following through with what they say..

Which "people"?

Some people accept that Nikon is in the process of transferring all manufacturing to Thailand and China - and that in consequence few new products will arrive in the first quarter.

If you are realistic you also should recognise no competitors have delivered as many new products in recent months as in pre Civid times.

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Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

 Leonard Shepherd's gear list:Leonard Shepherd's gear list
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mbike999
mbike999 Senior Member • Posts: 1,096
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

michaeladawson wrote:

You miss the point regarding whether a Z camera will be released that "equals the D850". People aren't referring to a better camera when they raise that question. They're talking about a combination of features, in addition to performance specs, that at least equals the D850. Of course the Z II bodies are going to beat a 4 year old D850 in many performance specs. But that's not the point.

Let's take a look at tracking mode as just one example. Forget about how well the Z bodies track AF. The AF tracking mode itself is considered to be flawed by many on Z bodies. Until Nikon implements AF tracking in the same way as in the D bodies you'll have people complaining that the Z7 camera is not the equivalent of the D850.

I would agree with your idea that there will never be a D850 "equal" in a Z body. But for different reasons. They're different technologies, a DSLR vs mirrorless. I don't expect Nikon to create a D850 in a mirrorless camera. My own opinion is that people waiting for a "true D850" replacement are going to be disappointed in the same way that the "true D700" replacement never arrived.

For me, whether it's a Z7 III or a Z8, I don't care. Either of those cameras to me will probably have me putting the D850 away for good. But that doesn't mean they will be accepted as D850 equals.

I couldn't agree more.

The idea that the Z7 II can like-for-like replace the D850 in each use case doesn't make sense. For example, there are a strong cohort of people that just like looking through the lens with zero lag or manipulation whatsoever. The gap is closing with better and better EVFs being introduced, but we are talking about the Z7 II here, and although the EVF is great and a live view feed of exposure is fantastic, some will still prefer or require the former experience.

Then there are others that want to be able to leave the camera on for days in a blind but always at the ready. Not really possible with a ML.

Or, you could talk about the frame rate and the fact that the Z7 II is limited to 5.5 FPS if you want a live feed of your subjects. Not the case with the D850, which is perfectly suitable for professional sports and action type shooting environments at 9 FPS.

I do fully expect that the Z9 will close the gap in many areas, but not at the D850 price point.

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sirhawkeye64 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,126
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

MrHollywood wrote:

sirhawkeye64 wrote:

MrHollywood wrote:

sirhawkeye64 wrote:

MrHollywood wrote:

1) Is Nikon in trouble? No, not really. Nikon retains a massive market share of close to 20% and currently is poised to release a flurry of lenses and bodies. They are making considerable adjustments, which are sensible, to maintain a strong position. Given how small they are relative to Canon and Sony, their strong position is testimony to how solid their lineup of products continues to be. Oh, and Nikon stock is a buy. Fuji, meanwhile, seems pretty happy with their share of under 4%. There's a lot of meat left on the table, folks.

2) Did Nikon drop the ball recently? No. Nikon said they'd release 12 new lenses this year and it's May 6th. So unless this is a VERY short year, or you have math impairments, Nikon has yet to drop anything.

3) When will Nikon build a mirrorless camera to equal the D850? Never. The current Z7II bests the D850 in almost every way. The D850 continues to hold a small edge in subject tracking, while the Z7II wins in virtually every other metric we consider important. As the d850 is now an "old" camera, we should not be shocked that the Z7II is a stronger and faster evolving camera.

4) Did glass stop being important? You'd think so with so much emphasis on "idiot modes" in the latest bodies. One thing is certain: The differences between top level glass and consumer glass continues to shrink. But the fact remains that the Z system offers truly exotic level performance that most of the competition and the latest F glass cannot match. Whether or not this is worth it for the end user is a personal decision.

5) Is the DSLR dead? Of course it is. But they'll be around for a while yet and people will make beautiful art with them long after the last one is sold.

Have a great day!

Robert

One thing i think people forget is that while market share is good, being profitable is more important. You can be successful with just, say, 10% market share. Or you can be in trouble with 50% market share if your profits aren't high enough or you're breaking even versus the company that is making a 10% profits with just a measly 5-10% of the market. So people forget that. They equate market share = profitability which isn't always the case.

And sometimes the smaller companies can be more profitable than the larger ones because they have less overhead to take care of too.

Fuji is a good example of a big name, but with smaller market share, and I think they're OK with that. Of course they are competing in markets that Sony, Canon and Nikon aren't in (ie. medium format) and making that market more affordable to the masses.

All good points. But Nikon's position is fairly strong as they work to consolidate and centralize. Their products are strong and gaining momentum.

Robert

Yes, but they do need to at least give some insight into some of the anticipated lenses. If they don't, people are going to assume that they aren't following through with what they say... such as the 12 lenses that are supposed to be released in 2021-2022. Of course they still have time, but we are about 1/3 of the way through 2021 already. Even a teaser with sparse details would at least keep people interested.

I agree, but it seems that Nikon has a long history of playing this game. Perhaps it's not to their advantage.

Nikon has always appeared to hold the position that they're doing us a favor with any announcements or releases!

My prediction is that we'll all be pretty happy before the 12 months are up.

Robert

That's my hope, but at least for me I've built my kit so new lens announcements aren't that big of a deal for me.  The only one I might be interested in woulid be the 100/105 macro and perhaps the 200-600.

 sirhawkeye64's gear list:sirhawkeye64's gear list
Nikon Z7 Nikon Z7 II Fujifilm X-T20 Nikon Z5 GoPro Hero8 Black +14 more
MrHollywood
OP MrHollywood Senior Member • Posts: 3,808
Re: Nikon Z Answers You Want

sirhawkeye64 wrote:

MrHollywood wrote:

sirhawkeye64 wrote:

MrHollywood wrote:

sirhawkeye64 wrote:

MrHollywood wrote:

1) Is Nikon in trouble? No, not really. Nikon retains a massive market share of close to 20% and currently is poised to release a flurry of lenses and bodies. They are making considerable adjustments, which are sensible, to maintain a strong position. Given how small they are relative to Canon and Sony, their strong position is testimony to how solid their lineup of products continues to be. Oh, and Nikon stock is a buy. Fuji, meanwhile, seems pretty happy with their share of under 4%. There's a lot of meat left on the table, folks.

2) Did Nikon drop the ball recently? No. Nikon said they'd release 12 new lenses this year and it's May 6th. So unless this is a VERY short year, or you have math impairments, Nikon has yet to drop anything.

3) When will Nikon build a mirrorless camera to equal the D850? Never. The current Z7II bests the D850 in almost every way. The D850 continues to hold a small edge in subject tracking, while the Z7II wins in virtually every other metric we consider important. As the d850 is now an "old" camera, we should not be shocked that the Z7II is a stronger and faster evolving camera.

4) Did glass stop being important? You'd think so with so much emphasis on "idiot modes" in the latest bodies. One thing is certain: The differences between top level glass and consumer glass continues to shrink. But the fact remains that the Z system offers truly exotic level performance that most of the competition and the latest F glass cannot match. Whether or not this is worth it for the end user is a personal decision.

5) Is the DSLR dead? Of course it is. But they'll be around for a while yet and people will make beautiful art with them long after the last one is sold.

Have a great day!

Robert

One thing i think people forget is that while market share is good, being profitable is more important. You can be successful with just, say, 10% market share. Or you can be in trouble with 50% market share if your profits aren't high enough or you're breaking even versus the company that is making a 10% profits with just a measly 5-10% of the market. So people forget that. They equate market share = profitability which isn't always the case.

And sometimes the smaller companies can be more profitable than the larger ones because they have less overhead to take care of too.

Fuji is a good example of a big name, but with smaller market share, and I think they're OK with that. Of course they are competing in markets that Sony, Canon and Nikon aren't in (ie. medium format) and making that market more affordable to the masses.

All good points. But Nikon's position is fairly strong as they work to consolidate and centralize. Their products are strong and gaining momentum.

Robert

Yes, but they do need to at least give some insight into some of the anticipated lenses. If they don't, people are going to assume that they aren't following through with what they say... such as the 12 lenses that are supposed to be released in 2021-2022. Of course they still have time, but we are about 1/3 of the way through 2021 already. Even a teaser with sparse details would at least keep people interested.

I agree, but it seems that Nikon has a long history of playing this game. Perhaps it's not to their advantage.

Nikon has always appeared to hold the position that they're doing us a favor with any announcements or releases!

My prediction is that we'll all be pretty happy before the 12 months are up.

Robert

That's my hope, but at least for me I've built my kit so new lens announcements aren't that big of a deal for me. The only one I might be interested in woulid be the 100/105 macro and perhaps the 200-600.

Agreed. My kit is now really well rounded, especially after picking up the 24-70 2.8 S. The 200-600 may be a buy, but I feel like overall I have most of what I need.

That doesn't mean I won't buy more lenses, but I'm not crying for any either. For macro I have a Tampon 90 VC that works for macro nicely, but makes odd AF noises with the FTZ adapter.

Robert

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"You're gonna need a bigger boat."

 MrHollywood's gear list:MrHollywood's gear list
Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S 70-200mm F2.8E FL ED VR Nikon 200-500mm F5.6E ED VR Sigma 35mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Sony RX100 VI +19 more
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