What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 20,073
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?
1

xpatUSA wrote:

Tom Schum wrote:

D Cox wrote:

The colours I get from the fp are quite pleasing. I used the Color Checker to make a custom preset. But I think the Merrill colours are better.

Are you able to make a custom preset using a Foveon image of the color checker?

If by "custom preset" we mean a file of type DCP, the answer is "yes".

Just found a command-line app "dcpTool" that can convert a DCP to a viewable/editable XML and, if edited, convert it back.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/dcptool/postdownload

Here's a "how to" for the profile editor:

https://digital-photography-school.com/adobes-dng-profile-editor-make-custom-camera-profiles/

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Tom Schum
Tom Schum Forum Pro • Posts: 11,806
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?
1

xpatUSA wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

Tom Schum wrote:

D Cox wrote:

The colours I get from the fp are quite pleasing. I used the Color Checker to make a custom preset. But I think the Merrill colours are better.

Are you able to make a custom preset using a Foveon image of the color checker?

If by "custom preset" we mean a file of type DCP, the answer is "yes".

Just found a command-line app "dcpTool" that can convert a DCP to a viewable/editable XML and, if edited, convert it back.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/dcptool/postdownload

Here's a "how to" for the profile editor:

https://digital-photography-school.com/adobes-dng-profile-editor-make-custom-camera-profiles/

Your skills are incredible!

How does it look when the profile is applied to a Bayer image? Is it anywhere near Foveon in terms of colors?

Here's one image from the fp L that seems to me matches Merrill resolution.  It would be very interesting to see the colors remapped.

From DPR samples,  DNG processed in SPP 6.8.0 and other software.  13mb download

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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 20,073
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?
1

Tom Schum wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

Tom Schum wrote:

D Cox wrote:

The colours I get from the fp are quite pleasing. I used the Color Checker to make a custom preset. But I think the Merrill colours are better.

Are you able to make a custom preset using a Foveon image of the color checker?

If by "custom preset" we mean a file of type DCP, the answer is "yes".

Just found a command-line app "dcpTool" that can convert a DCP to a viewable/editable XML and, if edited, convert it back.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/dcptool/postdownload

Here's a "how to" for the profile editor:

https://digital-photography-school.com/adobes-dng-profile-editor-make-custom-camera-profiles/

Your skills are incredible!

Why thank you, kind Sir!

How does it look when the profile is applied to a Bayer image? Is it anywhere near Foveon in terms of colors?

I didn't go that far, Tom. What I posted was for illustration of the method.

Here's one image from the fp L that seems to me matches Merrill resolution. It would be very interesting to see the colors remapped.

From DPR samples, DNG processed in SPP 6.8.0 and other software. 13mb download

Can't work on that, because I can't convert it to a DNG and the Adobe Profile Editor only works on DNG images as far as I know.

Good luck with your Grail of mapping Bayer to the Foveon look.

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Tom Schum
Tom Schum Forum Pro • Posts: 11,806
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?

xpatUSA wrote:

I didn't go that far, Tom. What I posted was for illustration of the method.

Here's one image from the fp L that seems to me matches Merrill resolution. It would be very interesting to see the colors remapped.

From DPR samples, DNG processed in SPP 6.8.0 and other software. 13mb download

Can't work on that, because I can't convert it to a DNG and the Adobe Profile Editor only works on DNG images as far as I know.

Good luck with your Grail of mapping Bayer to the Foveon look.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dhwrent4g8ir9oi/SDIM0013_full_%2B-2_Natural_half_bl_sh_sm.dng?dl=0

Link above is the dng. It is the same size as the JPG. I converted using ACR. I opened the JPG in ACR, then immediately saved it as dng. Maybe it can work.

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Tom Schum
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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 20,073
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?
1

Tom Schum wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

I didn't go that far, Tom. What I posted was for illustration of the method.

Here's one image from the fp L that seems to me matches Merrill resolution. It would be very interesting to see the colors remapped.

From DPR samples, DNG processed in SPP 6.8.0 and other software. 13mb download

Can't work on that, because I can't convert it to a DNG and the Adobe Profile Editor only works on DNG images as far as I know.

Good luck with your Grail of mapping Bayer to the Foveon look.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dhwrent4g8ir9oi/SDIM0013_full_%2B-2_Natural_half_bl_sh_sm.dng?dl=0

This is the dng. It is the same size as the JPG. I converted using ACR. I opened the JPG in ACR, then immediately saved it as dng. Maybe it can work.

Maybe - but I'm unsure what to do with it. Easy enough if it was an Xrite card image to tune for maximum accuracy but, for a real image, the Profile Editor has you poking around and adjusting picked colors for hue, saturation and lightness thereby somehow coming up with a "Foveon Look". And who here would agree with the result?!

About the only other way I can think of is to shoot the Xrite color patch card with a Bayer and a Foveon under identical lighting, determine the differences Foveon vs. Bayer and then somehow apply the differences to the Bayer camera shots.

At which point, a circling shark would zoom in, the while going on about the difference in spectral curves and with a pinch of gradation or metamerism thrown in for good measure ...

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Tom Schum
Tom Schum Forum Pro • Posts: 11,806
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?
1

xpatUSA wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dhwrent4g8ir9oi/SDIM0013_full_%2B-2_Natural_half_bl_sh_sm.dng?dl=0

This is the dng. It is the same size as the JPG. I converted using ACR. I opened the JPG in ACR, then immediately saved it as dng. Maybe it can work.

Maybe - but I'm unsure what to do with it. Easy enough if it was an Xrite card image to tune for maximum accuracy but, for a real image, the Profile Editor has you poking around and adjusting picked colors for hue, saturation and lightness thereby somehow coming up with a "Foveon Look". And who here would agree with the result?!

About the only other way I can think of is to shoot the Xrite color patch card with a Bayer and a Foveon under identical lighting, determine the differences Foveon vs. Bayer and then somehow apply the differences to the Bayer camera shots.

At which point, a circling shark would zoom in, the while going on about the difference in spectral curves and with a pinch of gradation or metamerism thrown in for good measure ...

I agree. I think you have a good view of the difficulties and pitfalls. Also the potholes that will swallow the rear passenger tire whole.

I agree there will be artifacts from such a color map, and some of them might be garish.

But, at least there is a path. I was not completely nuts with this idea.

Thanks again for taking a look.

PS until I actually tried it, I had no idea ACR would open JPGs and save them as DNGs.

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Tom Schum
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Tom Schum
Tom Schum Forum Pro • Posts: 11,806
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?
2

This discussion has me asking the question, "Would I be happy with a 20mp FF Foveon?" and after quite a bit of thought on this subject my answer is leaning toward "not really".

Part of it is the well-known performance limitations of Foveon, part of it is the difficulty of processing the photos in SPP, and part of it is that a 20mp output image is simply more than I'm comfortable with.

Basically I take my 26mp Fuji X image and downsize it to 1/4 original pixels (or less) and enjoy the images.  This means about 6mp images at the largest, and most of my images are HD (1920x1080 = 2.1mp).  I seldom print, and I don't do anything professionally.

I looked at the fp, and slowly came to the conclusion that it would be about the same as my Fujis except full frame (and I'd need a bunch of new lenses too).  If I didn't have my Fujis the fp would be quite an attractive tool for me.  A friend has been showing me his fp, and some of his L-mount lenses too, and it is all very nice.  But, it's not too different from my Fujis in my eyes.

Regarding the fp L, I've spent quite a bit of time in the past few days working with fp L files and learning all over again about how you really need a book to read whenever you make any change, even the tiniest change in an image in SPP.  Not hot to go there!  20mp FFF would not be much faster if at all.  Very pretty stuff comes out of the fp L though!

Limiting my shooting to ISO ranges from 50-400 is another thing I am not excited to do.

So, for me personally, and for the way I enjoy my photography hobby, I think I'm doing pretty well with my Fuji kit.  The Fuji X-E4 remains on my "next buy" list.

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D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 29,555
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?
2

Tom Schum wrote:

This discussion has me asking the question, "Would I be happy with a 20mp FF Foveon?" and after quite a bit of thought on this subject my answer is leaning toward "not really".

Part of it is the well-known performance limitations of Foveon, part of it is the difficulty of processing the photos in SPP, and part of it is that a 20mp output image is simply more than I'm comfortable with.

There's no need to use SPP for the DNG files from an fp. It never occurred to me to do so. I have been using my old copy of Adobe Camera Raw, or sometimes Affinity.

Basically I take my 26mp Fuji X image and downsize it to 1/4 original pixels (or less) and enjoy the images. This means about 6mp images at the largest, and most of my images are HD (1920x1080 = 2.1mp). I seldom print, and I don't do anything professionally.

I looked at the fp, and slowly came to the conclusion that it would be about the same as my Fujis except full frame (and I'd need a bunch of new lenses too). If I didn't have my Fujis the fp would be quite an attractive tool for me. A friend has been showing me his fp, and some of his L-mount lenses too, and it is all very nice. But, it's not too different from my Fujis in my eyes.

Probably not if you want only very small images. Personally, I like big images with lots of detail that I can scroll around in and explore.

Regarding the fp L, I've spent quite a bit of time in the past few days working with fp L files and learning all over again about how you really need a book to read whenever you make any change, even the tiniest change in an image in SPP. Not hot to go there! 20mp FFF would not be much faster if at all. Very pretty stuff comes out of the fp L though!

I think SPP is only needed for .X3F files, and not always for them (Affinity does a good job).

Limiting my shooting to ISO ranges from 50-400 is another thing I am not excited to do.

One would hope that a new Foveon would allow slightly higher ISO settings.

So, for me personally, and for the way I enjoy my photography hobby, I think I'm doing pretty well with my Fuji kit. The Fuji X-E4 remains on my "next buy" list.

No point at all in spending money on stuff you don't need.

Don Cox

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Lukacs85 Regular Member • Posts: 363
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?

My dream camera would be 70x48.5mm X3 curved sensor with 41MP resolution (8k), in quite compact body with 80mm F2.0 lens.

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 16,303
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?

D Cox wrote:

J. Michael wrote:

D Cox wrote:

ISO 3200 is a nice setting to use on the fp. There is some noise but it's easily reduced by Neat Image or similar programs. 800 is good for sunny days.

Don

Keepin' in mind that DR is lowered as ISO goes up, but you probably already know that.

ISO vs. DR

It'll be interesting to see if the fp is ever added to his analysis.

According to Sigma, DR of the fp is twelve and a half stops at 100, 800 and 3200.

Don Cox

Dynamic range is supposedly based on noise. That means it's impossible to have the same dynamic range at ISO 3200 as at ISO 100.

Why do I even have to mention that?!?

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 16,303
Re: Haven‘t you heard the news some time back....?
1

D Cox wrote:

FDecker wrote:

Sigma, as you may know, wants to develop a new full frame 1:1:1 Foveon sensor for a photo-centric camera along the tradition of the SD9 to SD1. But they faced severe technical problems and re-started the project.

I think this is the answer to your question, plain and simple.

And developing a new sensor is a tough project.

Apparently . . . because it's full-frame. They were so confident, when they made their announcement about creating the full-frame Foveon sensor. Mr. Yamaki even said once, matter-of-factly, that they could make a medium format Foveon sensor. I wonder if he would say that today.

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Scott Greiff
Scott Greiff Senior Member • Posts: 1,700
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?

D Cox wrote:

J. Michael wrote:

D Cox wrote:

ISO 3200 is a nice setting to use on the fp. There is some noise but it's easily reduced by Neat Image or similar programs. 800 is good for sunny days.

Don

Keepin' in mind that DR is lowered as ISO goes up, but you probably already know that.

ISO vs. DR

It'll be interesting to see if the fp is ever added to his analysis.

According to Sigma, DR of the fp is twelve and a half stops at 100, 800 and 3200.

I remember someone from Sigma saying that it's best to shoot video on the fp at 800 or 3200 considering the latitude breadth is more evenly spread out.

_Scott

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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 20,073
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?
1

D Cox wrote:

J. Michael wrote:

D Cox wrote:

ISO 3200 is a nice setting to use on the fp. There is some noise but it's easily reduced by Neat Image or similar programs. 800 is good for sunny days.

Don

Keepin' in mind that DR is lowered as ISO goes up, but you probably already know that.

ISO vs. DR

It'll be interesting to see if the fp is ever added to his analysis.

According to Sigma, DR of the fp is twelve and a half stops at 100, 800 and 3200.

Don Cox

A bit late to the party but what is the significance of the orange and gray bands?

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 16,303
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?

Lukacs85 wrote:

My dream camera would be 70x48.5mm X3 curved sensor with 41MP resolution (8k), in quite compact body with 80mm F2.0 lens.

So you want a really big camera, huh? Do you want a huge lens too?

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ChromeLight Senior Member • Posts: 2,667
Re: Haven‘t you heard the news some time back....?
1

Scottelly wrote:

D Cox wrote:

FDecker wrote:

Sigma, as you may know, wants to develop a new full frame 1:1:1 Foveon sensor for a photo-centric camera along the tradition of the SD9 to SD1. But they faced severe technical problems and re-started the project.

I think this is the answer to your question, plain and simple.

And developing a new sensor is a tough project.

Apparently . . . because it's full-frame. They were so confident, when they made their announcement about creating the full-frame Foveon sensor. Mr. Yamaki even said once, matter-of-factly, that they could make a medium format Foveon sensor. I wonder if he would say that today.

I wonder if it even matters any longer . . . With the new Fuji and fpl I'm not certain there's really a market for Foveon going forward. Even the fpl is a hard sell if you just want to do still photography. It's actually not that much smaller than a Nikon Z7, and perhaps even larger once you attach the faster L mount lenses. The Sony A1 is outrageous. Too expensive for the amount of photography I do. But seriously impressive.

I hope Sigma can maybe make an L mount clone of the Z mount 24-50. Something like that would pair perfectly with the fpl for those who don't want to juggle a trio of prime lenses.

D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 29,555
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?

xpatUSA wrote:

D Cox wrote:

J. Michael wrote:

D Cox wrote:

ISO 3200 is a nice setting to use on the fp. There is some noise but it's easily reduced by Neat Image or similar programs. 800 is good for sunny days.

Don

Keepin' in mind that DR is lowered as ISO goes up, but you probably already know that.

ISO vs. DR

It'll be interesting to see if the fp is ever added to his analysis.

According to Sigma, DR of the fp is twelve and a half stops at 100, 800 and 3200.

Don Cox

A bit late to the party but what is the significance of the orange and gray bands?

The line between them is mid grey.

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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 20,073
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?

D Cox wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

D Cox wrote:

J. Michael wrote:

D Cox wrote:

ISO 3200 is a nice setting to use on the fp. There is some noise but it's easily reduced by Neat Image or similar programs. 800 is good for sunny days.

Don

Keepin' in mind that DR is lowered as ISO goes up, but you probably already know that.

ISO vs. DR

It'll be interesting to see if the fp is ever added to his analysis.

According to Sigma, DR of the fp is twelve and a half stops at 100, 800 and 3200.

Don Cox

A bit late to the party but what is the significance of the orange and gray bands?

The line between them is mid grey.

Quite interesting, thank you Don.

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 16,303
Re: What is holding Sigma back with the new Merril(s)?
1

Ceistinne wrote:

D Cox wrote:

Ceistinne wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

pranza wrote:

Anyway the Merrills both DP & SD have proved themselves as excellent cameras and I see no need for posts from relatively new posters denigrating them. They have been used by many of us to make amazing pictures over the last nine years and are still doing so.

that's exactly what i say (finally having gotten the SD1 this year) - if anything _needs_ upgrade, is the photographer, full frame merril won't be a magic bullet.
again, those who don't see foveon issues with color in certain circumstances - they certainly need some awareness, not larger frames

I agree with your sentiment but can we please respect the memory of Richard B Merrill by spelling his name correctly and capitalizing the "M"?

Thank you Ted. I agree.

In any case, there is no indication from Sigma that the "FFF" will be called a "Merrill" ...

I think it is certain that it will not be called a "Merrill"

S

It won't; but what "pranza" is talking about is a FF 1:1:1 sensor with similar properties to the Merrill.

Don

Don,

I know that but I would like to think that the FF 1.1.1 Sigma / Foveon will be better all round over any other 1.1.1 that came before, so similar but better properties and I think that is what Kazuto has indicated that he wants also.

S

I agree. I think it will be much faster than any other Sigma camera with a Foveon sensor in it before, so not only will it produce better image quality than the SD Quattro, because of its better sensor, but I believe it will have a processor that is at least twice as fast as the one in the SD Quattro H, making it significantly faster than that camera too. I mean it's been a long time since the SD Quattro H was made, and mobile processors have sped up dramatically since then. I believe Sigma will include a better, faster EVF too . . . their best EVF yet. Just those improvements, and the fact that it will be able to use the native mount L lenses from Panasonic and Leica will make it an amazing and better camera than any other Sigma digital camera with a Foveon sensor, not to mention its ability to take Canon lenses and all the new Sigma L mount lenses too.

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 16,303
Re: Haven‘t you heard the news some time back....?

ChromeLight wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

D Cox wrote:

FDecker wrote:

Sigma, as you may know, wants to develop a new full frame 1:1:1 Foveon sensor for a photo-centric camera along the tradition of the SD9 to SD1. But they faced severe technical problems and re-started the project.

I think this is the answer to your question, plain and simple.

And developing a new sensor is a tough project.

Apparently . . . because it's full-frame. They were so confident, when they made their announcement about creating the full-frame Foveon sensor. Mr. Yamaki even said once, matter-of-factly, that they could make a medium format Foveon sensor. I wonder if he would say that today.

I wonder if it even matters any longer . . . With the new Fuji and fpl I'm not certain there's really a market for Foveon going forward. Even the fpl is a hard sell if you just want to do still photography. It's actually not that much smaller than a Nikon Z7, and perhaps even larger once you attach the faster L mount lenses. The Sony A1 is outrageous. Too expensive for the amount of photography I do. But seriously impressive.

I hope Sigma can maybe make an L mount clone of the Z mount 24-50. Something like that would pair perfectly with the fpl for those who don't want to juggle a trio of prime lenses.

The L mount 28-70mm f2.8 OS C doesn't satisfy you?

I think the 60 MP Sigma is relevant, and I think the full-frame Foveon will be relevant too. I'm hoping Sigma will follow it with a full-frame Quattro for those who want ultimate resolution. Again I don't see the competition stepping up from the 60 MP Sony to a 75 MP Nikon or Canon. Canon stepped back from 50 MP to 45 MP, Nikon just stepped up from 36 MP to 45 MP, and Sony stepped back from 60 MP to 50 MP, as if 60 MP was too much. I'm seriously perplexed by this. Considering the fact that a full-frame Quattro, at the same density as the other Quattros, would be equivalent to a 90 MP full-frame camera, that is what I would like to see Sigma make after they finally make the first full-frame Foveon.

You may be right though. It might not matter by then. Surely that's years in the future, and I might have a 100 MP medium format Fuji by then.

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ChromeLight Senior Member • Posts: 2,667
Re: Haven‘t you heard the news some time back....?

Scottelly wrote:

ChromeLight wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

D Cox wrote:

FDecker wrote:

Sigma, as you may know, wants to develop a new full frame 1:1:1 Foveon sensor for a photo-centric camera along the tradition of the SD9 to SD1. But they faced severe technical problems and re-started the project.

I think this is the answer to your question, plain and simple.

And developing a new sensor is a tough project.

Apparently . . . because it's full-frame. They were so confident, when they made their announcement about creating the full-frame Foveon sensor. Mr. Yamaki even said once, matter-of-factly, that they could make a medium format Foveon sensor. I wonder if he would say that today.

I wonder if it even matters any longer . . . With the new Fuji and fpl I'm not certain there's really a market for Foveon going forward. Even the fpl is a hard sell if you just want to do still photography. It's actually not that much smaller than a Nikon Z7, and perhaps even larger once you attach the faster L mount lenses. The Sony A1 is outrageous. Too expensive for the amount of photography I do. But seriously impressive.

I hope Sigma can maybe make an L mount clone of the Z mount 24-50. Something like that would pair perfectly with the fpl for those who don't want to juggle a trio of prime lenses.

The L mount 28-70mm f2.8 OS C doesn't satisfy you?

I think the 60 MP Sigma is relevant, and I think the full-frame Foveon will be relevant too. I'm hoping Sigma will follow it with a full-frame Quattro for those who want ultimate resolution. Again I don't see the competition stepping up from the 60 MP Sony to a 75 MP Nikon or Canon. Canon stepped back from 50 MP to 45 MP, Nikon just stepped up from 36 MP to 45 MP, and Sony stepped back from 60 MP to 50 MP, as if 60 MP was too much. I'm seriously perplexed by this. Considering the fact that a full-frame Quattro, at the same density as the other Quattros, would be equivalent to a 90 MP full-frame camera, that is what I would like to see Sigma make after they finally make the first full-frame Foveon.

You may be right though. It might not matter by then. Surely that's years in the future, and I might have a 100 MP medium format Fuji by then.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I was seeking to lighten any system. So 2.8 lenses are out--already have a D800 with the f/2.8 24-70. It's a great combo but hardly a walk around camera. Sadly, the smaller Nikon prime wide angles (the older designs still sold) don't autofocus with the new Z system's adapter. The fp series though with three primes is still an option for a light system. Luckily I live where Sigma has a showroom. I'm hoping in a few months to stop buy and get hands on with the fpl.

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