Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,043
Re: List of EF-M lens options...more than you thought

Mark B. wrote:

cnyphotoguy wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

The M series is a dead end. There's been little to no development in lenses, and I don't believe there are any 3rd party EF-M lenses.

More lens options than most in the thread believe - (Almost) complete list of native EF-M lenses v3: Canon EOS M Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)

8 native Canon lenses. In the meantime there are already 10 Canon RF lenses.

Why doesn't 3rd party count? Sigma's 1.4 primes are excellent all around.

All EF-M is missing is a decent 15-xx zoom. If you need exotic stuff like F/2 zooms or whatever it's obviously not for you.

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
Sony a7 III Sony FE 24-70mm F4 OSS Samyang AF 35mm F1.8 FE Samyang AF 45mm F1.8 FE Sony FE 85mm F1.8
Messier Object Forum Pro • Posts: 11,009
Re: List of EF-M lens options...more than you thought
1

sportyaccordy wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

cnyphotoguy wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

The M series is a dead end. There's been little to no development in lenses, and I don't believe there are any 3rd party EF-M lenses.

More lens options than most in the thread believe - (Almost) complete list of native EF-M lenses v3: Canon EOS M Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)

8 native Canon lenses. In the meantime there are already 10 Canon RF lenses.

Why doesn't 3rd party count? Sigma's 1.4 primes are excellent all around.

All EF-M is missing is a decent 15-xx zoom. If you need exotic stuff like F/2 zooms or whatever it's obviously not for you.

The M system seems very capable, but I don’t see a 7D Mk II anywhere in there or a future successor.

Peter

sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,043
Re: List of EF-M lens options...more than you thought

Messier Object wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

cnyphotoguy wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

The M series is a dead end. There's been little to no development in lenses, and I don't believe there are any 3rd party EF-M lenses.

More lens options than most in the thread believe - (Almost) complete list of native EF-M lenses v3: Canon EOS M Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)

8 native Canon lenses. In the meantime there are already 10 Canon RF lenses.

Why doesn't 3rd party count? Sigma's 1.4 primes are excellent all around.

All EF-M is missing is a decent 15-xx zoom. If you need exotic stuff like F/2 zooms or whatever it's obviously not for you.

The M system seems very capable, but I don’t see a 7D Mk II anywhere in there or a future successor.

Peter

Agreed, I just don't buy that it's a dead end with no development.

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
Sony a7 III Sony FE 24-70mm F4 OSS Samyang AF 35mm F1.8 FE Samyang AF 45mm F1.8 FE Sony FE 85mm F1.8
MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
3

IR1234 wrote:

MikeJ9116 wrote:

The main reason people want a R7 is because the 32mp APS-C sensor puts pixels on the target equivalent to an 80mp FF sensor. Also, BIF and other action shooters are clicking off frames at a ferocious pace and it is much easier to process and store 32mp images than 45mp images. Especially considering the advantages of the APS-C sensors crop factor regarding long telephoto shooting. There is a great need for a R7 for those who are into shooting long telephoto lenses.

That was my point about the 600 and 800s. Canon built two lenses that takes into account the crop. It's now 800mm on full frame with no crop, with an R6 and RP retaining at least 20MP from the 7D2. (Vs 100-400 with a 1.4x convertor. So f5.6 becomes f8, and anyone who has compared crop to ff knows you gain another 1.5 stops, f11 ff should appear around f6.3.)

Personally, I think the 600/800 lenses showed exactly where Canon were going, and I really think APS-C is dead at this point. We're over two years into RF at this point. The Canon R was September 2018. The 7D2 was September 2014

I don't see the 600mm/800mm lenses like you do.  They aren't ones serious BIF/action shooters will use due to the f/11 fixed aperture and STM focusing.  They are budget telephoto lenses for those who want to dabble with long telephoto shooting with FF R cameras or for people who can't won't use heavy, expensive long lenses.  I don't see them showing where Canon is going regarding the R7 or any other camera.

And I'm sure in an interview with someone from Canon, they even said the R6 was the 7D2 replacement.

Whoever said that doesn't know the reasons why the 7D series has such a following or why Canon put this camera in their DSLR lineup.  The R6 is not a replacement for a 32mp R7 type camera.  The same reason many FF DSLR users bought the 7D series cameras is the same reason many FF R camera owners will buy a R7 type of camera.

Ok, think about it from another perspective. APS-C was done because of cost, it's a cheaper sensor. It wasn't done for any other reason than that. But the low end camera market is being torn apart by phones. So why would you introduce a cheaper version of the R6 and introduce all the crop lens nonsense again?

I prefer to say an inexpensive sensor mostly due to its physical size increasing yield numbers from a single silicon wafer.  Cheap implies inferior and this isn't the case with APS-C sensors.  Especially the 32mp one from Canon.  The R7 isn't a cheaper version of the R6.  If anything the R6 is hopelessly trying to imitate the R7, or what it would be as a successor to the 7D series.

(And for the record I'm a huge fan of the 7D/7D2).

As am I and APS-C, in general.  There are many millions of APS-C users and many of them are waiting for APS-C cameras with an RF mount.  IMO, Canon would be crazy to not serve these people in the R system.  The M system will not serve them because Canon won't let it serve them.

IR1234 Senior Member • Posts: 1,889
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
2

MikeJ9116 wrote:

As am I and APS-C, in general. There are many millions of APS-C users and many of them are waiting for APS-C cameras with an RF mount. IMO, Canon would be crazy to not serve these people in the R system. The M system will not serve them because Canon won't let it serve them.

So where is the R7 then? Apparently you know Canon's market better than them, you've postulated some examples of why this camera is necessary, so if it's not the R6, where is it? The 7D2 was 2014, Canon work on 4-5 year cycles, the 7D3 is now 2-3 years overdue.

It'd be great to see an R7, so where is it? People have been talking about the 7D2 replacement since 2018, and it's not anywhere to be found. Canon didn't even bother with an interim body in say 2018/9 apart from the 90D.

The RF system is now 5 bodies in (inc R3) and we still have no APS-C model, yet we have news of R7 prototypes in the field and yet no one saw the R3 coming.

 IR1234's gear list:IR1234's gear list
Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS 7D Mark II Canon EOS 400D Canon EOS 550D Canon 6D Mark II +13 more
sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,043
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
2

MikeJ9116 wrote:

As am I and APS-C, in general. There are many millions of APS-C users and many of them are waiting for APS-C cameras with an RF mount. IMO, Canon would be crazy to not serve these people in the R system. The M system will not serve them because Canon won't let it serve them.

I think a stronger argument could be made that the majority of APS-C users

  • don't even use their ILCs anymore
  • don't know the difference between APS-C & FF
  • don't know the difference between EF and RF (or that RF even exists)
  • don't know the difference between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras

Not to mention Canon has had a mirrorless system for nearly a decade so if people wanted an APS-C MILC by Canon they had that choice for quite some time.

When it comes to what Canon and the market do we are all speculating and guessing, but your guesses seem completely plucked out of thin air to serve predetermined narratives about where you want the market to go rather than where all the evidence says it will.

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
Sony a7 III Sony FE 24-70mm F4 OSS Samyang AF 35mm F1.8 FE Samyang AF 45mm F1.8 FE Sony FE 85mm F1.8
MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

IR1234 wrote:

MikeJ9116 wrote:

As am I and APS-C, in general. There are many millions of APS-C users and many of them are waiting for APS-C cameras with an RF mount. IMO, Canon would be crazy to not serve these people in the R system. The M system will not serve them because Canon won't let it serve them.

So where is the R7 then? Apparently you know Canon's market better than them, you've postulated some examples of why this camera is necessary, so if it's not the R6, where is it? The 7D2 was 2014, Canon work on 4-5 year cycles, the 7D3 is now 2-3 years overdue.

There are a few reasons why Canon may have delayed APS-C in the R system.  One is only having finite resources available due to the hard push with FF camera bodies to get the R system up and running as fast as possible.  I never expected Canon to bring APS-C to the RF mount at the same time as FF.  Another is the impact COVID has had on global supplies of so many components.  They might have had to delay APS-C to apply what supply they could get to FF cameras.  I think this is somewhat evident from the supply issues they have had with the R5 and R6.  A third reason they are keeping quiet about APS-C coming to the R system is so it doesn't kill M sales prematurely.  Canon very likely wants to milk the M system for all they can before it takes a big hit from having RF mount ASP-C cameras competing against it.

Also, seeing how fast Canon has stopped DSLR and EF lens R&D, it makes sense that there is no 7D/3.  The R system debuted in 2018 and the 7D/2 in 2014.  Canon likely knew right after the launch of the 7D/2 where they were going regarding the R system.  They also likely knew that DSLRs would be expiring very quickly and throwing limited R&D resources at this camera wasn't a good idea.  Especially if they knew an RF mount replacement for it was coming.  So not having a 7D/3 actually makes more sense than having one, IMO.

It'd be great to see an R7, so where is it? People have been talking about the 7D2 replacement since 2018, and it's not anywhere to be found. Canon didn't even bother with an interim body in say 2018/9 apart from the 90D.

See my first two paragraphs.

The RF system is now 5 bodies in (inc R3) and we still have no APS-C model, yet we have news of R7 prototypes in the field and yet no one saw the R3 coming.

There might not be APS-C in the R system.  You, or I, just don't know one way or the other.  I think there are good reasons that it will show up.  Canon has a grossly underutilized their class leading (currently anyway) 32mp APS-C sensor that they need to capitalize on.  It has shown up in only two cameras.  One is a DSLR and the other is in the least  popular and ergonomic of the M cameras.  Also, why don't we have a M5/2?  What does this tell us about Canon's intentions?  One could make an argument that slow to no M development and no new APS-C DSLR development means APS-C is coming to the R system.  Or Canon is abandoning APS-C altogether.  I will go with the former over the latter.

MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

sportyaccordy wrote:

MikeJ9116 wrote:

As am I and APS-C, in general. There are many millions of APS-C users and many of them are waiting for APS-C cameras with an RF mount. IMO, Canon would be crazy to not serve these people in the R system. The M system will not serve them because Canon won't let it serve them.

I think a stronger argument could be made that the majority of APS-C users

  • don't even use their ILCs anymore
  • don't know the difference between APS-C & FF
  • don't know the difference between EF and RF (or that RF even exists)
  • don't know the difference between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras

The argument is in the vast number of APS-C users across all brands (although more so regarding Canon users). In today's low ILC sales just a fraction of these users buying RF mount APS-C cameras amounts to a big portion of annual sales. To make APS-C viable, and profitable, just a fraction of the current user base buying R system APS-C cameras is needed.

Not to mention Canon has had a mirrorless system for nearly a decade so if people wanted an APS-C MILC by Canon they had that choice for quite some time.

The M system is anemic which is why it has not grown into a desirable system to most APS-C users. The EF-S cameras sold more in a given year than M cameras sold in its entire existence. The vast majority of APS-C DSLR users rejected the M system. It has never been perceived as a serious platform. APS-C in the R system will not have this issue which is why many APS-C users that spurned the M system will buy into the R system.  This happened with FF DSLR users and they have arguably been more critical of ff MILC cameras than DSLR APS-C users have been with APS-C MILC cameras.

When it comes to what Canon and the market do we are all speculating and guessing, but your guesses seem completely plucked out of thin air to serve predetermined narratives about where you want the market to go rather than where all the evidence says it will.

My assumptions are no worse than yours at a minimum.

palombian Regular Member • Posts: 498
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

It is strange indeed there isn't a 7DII successor after almost 7 years.

Maybe this can be explained by Canon's efforts on getting a leading place in mirrorless again.

It seems inconceivable to me a company with 45% market share would abandon APS-C altogether. The M-system has it's place.

But they are trying hard with half-decent camera's as the 90D and M6II to push wildlife and sport shooters to RF full-frame. I am afraid the R7/M7 will be of the same kind.

OTH the low pixel density indicates the R6 is NOT the 7DII successor, and the R5 is too expensive for the average 7D(II) customer.

I'll wait until August/September.

 palombian's gear list:palombian's gear list
Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS M6 Canon EOS M100 Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5 +26 more
sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,043
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

palombian wrote:

It is strange indeed there isn't a 7DII successor after almost 7 years.

Maybe this can be explained by Canon's efforts on getting a leading place in mirrorless again.

It seems inconceivable to me a company with 45% market share would abandon APS-C altogether. The M-system has it's place.

But they are trying hard with half-decent camera's as the 90D and M6II to push wildlife and sport shooters to RF full-frame. I am afraid the R7/M7 will be of the same kind.

OTH the low pixel density indicates the R6 is NOT the 7DII successor, and the R5 is too expensive for the average 7D(II) customer.

I'll wait until August/September.

I don't think it's strange. Look at the market. ILC sales peaked in 2012, and the majority if not all the losses have been in crop/APS-C. What made sense to do back when the first 2 7Ds were released doesn't make sense today. It's a completely different environment, which is why Canon has changed its priorities. Canon didn't push customers to FF RF; customers pushed them.

It does sound like there is demand for a 7D3 successor but if it comes it will 100% be on RF mount, IMO as it should be.

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
Sony a7 III Sony FE 24-70mm F4 OSS Samyang AF 35mm F1.8 FE Samyang AF 45mm F1.8 FE Sony FE 85mm F1.8
IR1234 Senior Member • Posts: 1,889
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

sportyaccordy wrote:

palombian wrote:

It is strange indeed there isn't a 7DII successor after almost 7 years.

Maybe this can be explained by Canon's efforts on getting a leading place in mirrorless again.

It seems inconceivable to me a company with 45% market share would abandon APS-C altogether. The M-system has it's place.

But they are trying hard with half-decent camera's as the 90D and M6II to push wildlife and sport shooters to RF full-frame. I am afraid the R7/M7 will be of the same kind.

OTH the low pixel density indicates the R6 is NOT the 7DII successor, and the R5 is too expensive for the average 7D(II) customer.

I'll wait until August/September.

I don't think it's strange. Look at the market. ILC sales peaked in 2012, and the majority if not all the losses have been in crop/APS-C. What made sense to do back when the first 2 7Ds were released doesn't make sense today. It's a completely different environment, which is why Canon has changed its priorities. Canon didn't push customers to FF RF; customers pushed them.

It does sound like there is demand for a 7D3 successor but if it comes it will 100% be on RF mount, IMO as it should be.

7D3 is already here, it's called the R6.

Everyone is getting totally hung up on the numbers 6 and 7. They think 6 means the 6D/6D2 and 7 means the 7D/7D2.

But what part of the R6 is the 6D2? The R6 has less MP, is much much faster, has dual slot, and has a processor in a different league (resizing second image on the fly for second card) . In fact, the R6 looks exactly what a 7D3 would be - except for the full frame sensor. That is all we are arguing about, whether a mirrorless 7D3 should have a full frame sensor.

 IR1234's gear list:IR1234's gear list
Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS 7D Mark II Canon EOS 400D Canon EOS 550D Canon 6D Mark II +13 more
Distinctly Average Senior Member • Posts: 1,206
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
4

IR1234 wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

palombian wrote:

It is strange indeed there isn't a 7DII successor after almost 7 years.

Maybe this can be explained by Canon's efforts on getting a leading place in mirrorless again.

It seems inconceivable to me a company with 45% market share would abandon APS-C altogether. The M-system has it's place.

But they are trying hard with half-decent camera's as the 90D and M6II to push wildlife and sport shooters to RF full-frame. I am afraid the R7/M7 will be of the same kind.

OTH the low pixel density indicates the R6 is NOT the 7DII successor, and the R5 is too expensive for the average 7D(II) customer.

I'll wait until August/September.

I don't think it's strange. Look at the market. ILC sales peaked in 2012, and the majority if not all the losses have been in crop/APS-C. What made sense to do back when the first 2 7Ds were released doesn't make sense today. It's a completely different environment, which is why Canon has changed its priorities. Canon didn't push customers to FF RF; customers pushed them.

It does sound like there is demand for a 7D3 successor but if it comes it will 100% be on RF mount, IMO as it should be.

7D3 is already here, it's called the R6.

Everyone is getting totally hung up on the numbers 6 and 7. They think 6 means the 6D/6D2 and 7 means the 7D/7D2.

But what part of the R6 is the 6D2? The R6 has less MP, is much much faster, has dual slot, and has a processor in a different league (resizing second image on the fly for second card) . In fact, the R6 looks exactly what a 7D3 would be - except for the full frame sensor. That is all we are arguing about, whether a mirrorless 7D3 should have a full frame sensor.

The R6 just doesn’t have enough pixels. It is a great camera, sure. However, to get the same number of pixels on subject you need either a bigger lens, be a lot closer or a combo of both. That is what people are arguing about, pixels on subject. An R6 with a 32mp crop sensor would be all it really takes for most of us wildlife togs to be happy. If Canon added a few small tweaks then we would be very happy and throwing our hard earned at them. Currently, if my 7D2 dies, and it is getting close, I would have to go R5 and then would have only 17mp on subject at the same distance.

-- hide signature --
MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

IR1234 wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

palombian wrote:

It is strange indeed there isn't a 7DII successor after almost 7 years.

Maybe this can be explained by Canon's efforts on getting a leading place in mirrorless again.

It seems inconceivable to me a company with 45% market share would abandon APS-C altogether. The M-system has it's place.

But they are trying hard with half-decent camera's as the 90D and M6II to push wildlife and sport shooters to RF full-frame. I am afraid the R7/M7 will be of the same kind.

OTH the low pixel density indicates the R6 is NOT the 7DII successor, and the R5 is too expensive for the average 7D(II) customer.

I'll wait until August/September.

I don't think it's strange. Look at the market. ILC sales peaked in 2012, and the majority if not all the losses have been in crop/APS-C. What made sense to do back when the first 2 7Ds were released doesn't make sense today. It's a completely different environment, which is why Canon has changed its priorities. Canon didn't push customers to FF RF; customers pushed them.

It does sound like there is demand for a 7D3 successor but if it comes it will 100% be on RF mount, IMO as it should be.

7D3 is already here, it's called the R6.

Everyone is getting totally hung up on the numbers 6 and 7. They think 6 means the 6D/6D2 and 7 means the 7D/7D2.

The numbers everyone is, and should be, getting hung up on is sensor resolution and size. The R6 puts 20mp on the target since it is a FF sensor. The hypothetical R7 puts a FF equivalent 80 MEGAPIXELS on the target relative to the R6 when using the same lens. The numbers are undeniable to show the R7 would be a far, far better camera for BIF, sports etc. where long reach and the possibility of heavy cropping is high to get the image framed as desired. The R7 gives the shooter four times the effective megapixels on target than the R6. Saying the R6 is a replacement for a R7 is just not defensible.

But what part of the R6 is the 6D2? The R6 has less MP, is much much faster, has dual slot, and has a processor in a different league (resizing second image on the fly for second card) . In fact, the R6 looks exactly what a 7D3 would be - except for the full frame sensor. That is all we are arguing about, whether a mirrorless 7D3 should have a full frame sensor.

The sensor difference you mention is the sole reason the R7 should exist. Your argument falls on its face with this point alone.

nolten Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
3

OTOH, the 7D2 is 20 MP, all the 1DX are 20 MP, and the R6 is 20 MP.  Perfectly logical.  You need reach?  You put one of those ridiculous f11 teles on it.  I don't like it, but all the signals are that APS-C is going away.

I'm sort of having fun with your arguments here since none of us have any idea what Canon might do.

 nolten's gear list:nolten's gear list
Canon G1 X III Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS 90D
sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,043
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

MikeJ9116 wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

MikeJ9116 wrote:

As am I and APS-C, in general. There are many millions of APS-C users and many of them are waiting for APS-C cameras with an RF mount. IMO, Canon would be crazy to not serve these people in the R system. The M system will not serve them because Canon won't let it serve them.

I think a stronger argument could be made that the majority of APS-C users

  • don't even use their ILCs anymore
  • don't know the difference between APS-C & FF
  • don't know the difference between EF and RF (or that RF even exists)
  • don't know the difference between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras

The argument is in the vast number of APS-C users across all brands (although more so regarding Canon users). In today's low ILC sales just a fraction of these users buying RF mount APS-C cameras amounts to a big portion of annual sales. To make APS-C viable, and profitable, just a fraction of the current user base buying R system APS-C cameras is needed.

Just because someone bought an APS-C camera doesn't mean they are an APS-C user. Like I said the vast majority of APS-C buyers have likely abandoned ILCs altogether.  So there's not this huge mass of "users" waiting for the right camera to buy, and Canon knows this.

Not to mention Canon has had a mirrorless system for nearly a decade so if people wanted an APS-C MILC by Canon they had that choice for quite some time.

The M system is anemic which is why it has not grown into a desirable system to most APS-C users. The EF-S cameras sold more in a given year than M cameras sold in its entire existence.

Right, but which year? I'd wager that in 2021 EF-M is outselling EF-S. What happened in 2012 is irrelevant.

The vast majority of APS-C DSLR users rejected the M system.

Again the vast majority of APS-C DSLR "users" probably only bought 1 camera kit, which they aren't evne using today. They didn't just reject the M system; they rejected ILCs entirely.

It has never been perceived as a serious platform. APS-C in the R system will not have this issue which is why many APS-C users that spurned the M system will buy into the R system.

This is just flat out wrong; we can look to Nikon Z as an indicator of how a crop RF body would do. IIRC the Z70 has yet to crack 100K sales after... 2 years on the market? A far cry from the millions of DX DSLRs Nikon sold in the DSLR's hey day. There's nothing to say things would go any better for RF, especially when you factor in that they already have EF-M (which in many respects is more developed than EF-S).

This happened with FF DSLR users and they have arguably been more critical of ff MILC cameras than DSLR APS-C users have been with APS-C MILC cameras.

Do you have anything to substantiate this?

When it comes to what Canon and the market do we are all speculating and guessing, but your guesses seem completely plucked out of thin air to serve predetermined narratives about where you want the market to go rather than where all the evidence says it will.

My assumptions are no worse than yours at a minimum.

My assumptions are based on sales data and the decisions camera companies have made; I have no idea what your assumptions are based on.

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
Sony a7 III Sony FE 24-70mm F4 OSS Samyang AF 35mm F1.8 FE Samyang AF 45mm F1.8 FE Sony FE 85mm F1.8
sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,043
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

IR1234 wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

palombian wrote:

It is strange indeed there isn't a 7DII successor after almost 7 years.

Maybe this can be explained by Canon's efforts on getting a leading place in mirrorless again.

It seems inconceivable to me a company with 45% market share would abandon APS-C altogether. The M-system has it's place.

But they are trying hard with half-decent camera's as the 90D and M6II to push wildlife and sport shooters to RF full-frame. I am afraid the R7/M7 will be of the same kind.

OTH the low pixel density indicates the R6 is NOT the 7DII successor, and the R5 is too expensive for the average 7D(II) customer.

I'll wait until August/September.

I don't think it's strange. Look at the market. ILC sales peaked in 2012, and the majority if not all the losses have been in crop/APS-C. What made sense to do back when the first 2 7Ds were released doesn't make sense today. It's a completely different environment, which is why Canon has changed its priorities. Canon didn't push customers to FF RF; customers pushed them.

It does sound like there is demand for a 7D3 successor but if it comes it will 100% be on RF mount, IMO as it should be.

7D3 is already here, it's called the R6.

Everyone is getting totally hung up on the numbers 6 and 7. They think 6 means the 6D/6D2 and 7 means the 7D/7D2.

But what part of the R6 is the 6D2? The R6 has less MP, is much much faster, has dual slot, and has a processor in a different league (resizing second image on the fly for second card) . In fact, the R6 looks exactly what a 7D3 would be - except for the full frame sensor. That is all we are arguing about, whether a mirrorless 7D3 should have a full frame sensor.

The big draw of the 7D was pixel density which the R6 absolutely does not have. It's not a 7D replacement in any way whatsoever. The R5 is closer but way too expensive.

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
Sony a7 III Sony FE 24-70mm F4 OSS Samyang AF 35mm F1.8 FE Samyang AF 45mm F1.8 FE Sony FE 85mm F1.8
Mark B.
Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 28,463
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

sportyaccordy wrote:

palombian wrote:

It is strange indeed there isn't a 7DII successor after almost 7 years.

Maybe this can be explained by Canon's efforts on getting a leading place in mirrorless again.

It seems inconceivable to me a company with 45% market share would abandon APS-C altogether. The M-system has it's place.

But they are trying hard with half-decent camera's as the 90D and M6II to push wildlife and sport shooters to RF full-frame. I am afraid the R7/M7 will be of the same kind.

OTH the low pixel density indicates the R6 is NOT the 7DII successor, and the R5 is too expensive for the average 7D(II) customer.

I'll wait until August/September.

I don't think it's strange. Look at the market. ILC sales peaked in 2012, and the majority if not all the losses have been in crop/APS-C. What made sense to do back when the first 2 7Ds were released doesn't make sense today. It's a completely different environment, which is why Canon has changed its priorities. Canon didn't push customers to FF RF; customers pushed them.

It does sound like there is demand for a 7D3 successor but if it comes it will 100% be on RF mount, IMO as it should be.

At this point I don't know of anyone doubting that a 7D II successor would be RF mount.  I don't see Canon giving this market up, but I also think it's obvious it's not going to be this year either.

Mark B.
Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 28,463
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

IR1234 wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

palombian wrote:

It is strange indeed there isn't a 7DII successor after almost 7 years.

Maybe this can be explained by Canon's efforts on getting a leading place in mirrorless again.

It seems inconceivable to me a company with 45% market share would abandon APS-C altogether. The M-system has it's place.

But they are trying hard with half-decent camera's as the 90D and M6II to push wildlife and sport shooters to RF full-frame. I am afraid the R7/M7 will be of the same kind.

OTH the low pixel density indicates the R6 is NOT the 7DII successor, and the R5 is too expensive for the average 7D(II) customer.

I'll wait until August/September.

I don't think it's strange. Look at the market. ILC sales peaked in 2012, and the majority if not all the losses have been in crop/APS-C. What made sense to do back when the first 2 7Ds were released doesn't make sense today. It's a completely different environment, which is why Canon has changed its priorities. Canon didn't push customers to FF RF; customers pushed them.

It does sound like there is demand for a 7D3 successor but if it comes it will 100% be on RF mount, IMO as it should be.

7D3 is already here, it's called the R6.

LOL, no it's not.  To get the same # of pixels on a subject with the same lens used on a 7D II, the sensor would need to be about 52mp.

Everyone is getting totally hung up on the numbers 6 and 7. They think 6 means the 6D/6D2 and 7 means the 7D/7D2.

But what part of the R6 is the 6D2? The R6 has less MP, is much much faster, has dual slot, and has a processor in a different league (resizing second image on the fly for second card) . In fact, the R6 looks exactly what a 7D3 would be - except for the full frame sensor. That is all we are arguing about, whether a mirrorless 7D3 should have a full frame sensor.

I don't want a FF sensor for what I use the 7D II for.

Distinctly Average Senior Member • Posts: 1,206
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

sportyaccordy wrote:

MikeJ9116 wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

MikeJ9116 wrote:

As am I and APS-C, in general. There are many millions of APS-C users and many of them are waiting for APS-C cameras with an RF mount. IMO, Canon would be crazy to not serve these people in the R system. The M system will not serve them because Canon won't let it serve them.

I think a stronger argument could be made that the majority of APS-C users

  • don't even use their ILCs anymore
  • don't know the difference between APS-C & FF
  • don't know the difference between EF and RF (or that RF even exists)
  • don't know the difference between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras

The argument is in the vast number of APS-C users across all brands (although more so regarding Canon users). In today's low ILC sales just a fraction of these users buying RF mount APS-C cameras amounts to a big portion of annual sales. To make APS-C viable, and profitable, just a fraction of the current user base buying R system APS-C cameras is needed.

Just because someone bought an APS-C camera doesn't mean they are an APS-C user. Like I said the vast majority of APS-C buyers have likely abandoned ILCs altogether. So there's not this huge mass of "users" waiting for the right camera to buy, and Canon knows this.

Where is your information on this? Having spoken to local dealers there are still plenty of people asking for crop bodies. I currently own a few as well as a FF camera that rarely gets used. When I am out and about the majority of cameras I see people using for wildlife are crop bodies. Many people have a couple of cameras and a crop will be one of them.

Not to mention Canon has had a mirrorless system for nearly a decade so if people wanted an APS-C MILC by Canon they had that choice for quite some time.

The M system is anemic which is why it has not grown into a desirable system to most APS-C users. The EF-S cameras sold more in a given year than M cameras sold in its entire existence.

Right, but which year? I'd wager that in 2021 EF-M is outselling EF-S. What happened in 2012 is irrelevant.

Again, you have little information to back that up. In the last three years here in the UK,  and I get around a lot, I have only seen one M body being used for wildlife. That was an M50 someone was using in the Peak District for a bearded vulture, a rarity in this country. There were however hundreds of people using DSLRs and most of them were crop bodies. I see similar most days, From reports, M has sold well in parts of the US and Japan but has been a poor seller elsewhere. We can in many ways see that, or Canon would have made more effort on their lens lineup instead of the paltry 8 we see today.

The vast majority of APS-C DSLR users rejected the M system.

Again the vast majority of APS-C DSLR "users" probably only bought 1 camera kit, which they aren't evne using today. They didn't just reject the M system; they rejected ILCs entirely.

Your source? Figures to back up your statement?

It has never been perceived as a serious platform. APS-C in the R system will not have this issue which is why many APS-C users that spurned the M system will buy into the R system.

This is just flat out wrong; we can look to Nikon Z as an indicator of how a crop RF body would do. IIRC the Z70 has yet to crack 100K sales after... 2 years on the market? A far cry from the millions of DX DSLRs Nikon sold in the DSLR's hey day. There's nothing to say things would go any better for RF, especially when you factor in that they already have EF-M (which in many respects is more developed than EF-S).

Your source for these z70 figures!? And again, how is M more developed than S given Canon only have 8 M lenses. S cameras can use the whole S range of lenses as well as all EF lenses.

This happened with FF DSLR users and they have arguably been more critical of ff MILC cameras than DSLR APS-C users have been with APS-C MILC cameras.

Do you have anything to substantiate this?

Seem you are happy to state facts but when others question things you what them to substantiate it.

When it comes to what Canon and the market do we are all speculating and guessing, but your guesses seem completely plucked out of thin air to serve predetermined narratives about where you want the market to go rather than where all the evidence says it will.

My assumptions are no worse than yours at a minimum.

My assumptions are based on sales data and the decisions camera companies have made; I have no idea what your assumptions are based on.

And where is that sales data! Do you work for Canon or Nikon! If you did you would be under a confidentiality agreement. I have never seen any of the big photography companies break down their sales figures to that level. At best it is ILC vs he rest and sometimes DSLR vs ML. I would love to see full sales figures based on sensor size or even model but the brands as far as I know have never revealed that. All we have to go by is what we see in the field. As a wildlife photographer who gets around quite a bit albeit only here in the UK I can comfortably say that crop bodies are still very popular. We can also look at camera stats from Flickr and the like and again, crop cameras are still very well represented there. Like you however, we can only go by what we see in our own locale and the in our own chosen field of photography. For me that is sport, mainly water based ones like windsurfing, and wildlife. I could hardly comment on landscape, fashion, street etc. But those are not what the 7D and a potential R7 are about so to some extent irrelevant to this thread.

-- hide signature --
MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

sportyaccordy wrote:

MikeJ9116 wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

MikeJ9116 wrote:

As am I and APS-C, in general. There are many millions of APS-C users and many of them are waiting for APS-C cameras with an RF mount. IMO, Canon would be crazy to not serve these people in the R system. The M system will not serve them because Canon won't let it serve them.

I think a stronger argument could be made that the majority of APS-C users

  • don't even use their ILCs anymore
  • don't know the difference between APS-C & FF
  • don't know the difference between EF and RF (or that RF even exists)
  • don't know the difference between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras

The argument is in the vast number of APS-C users across all brands (although more so regarding Canon users). In today's low ILC sales just a fraction of these users buying RF mount APS-C cameras amounts to a big portion of annual sales. To make APS-C viable, and profitable, just a fraction of the current user base buying R system APS-C cameras is needed.

Just because someone bought an APS-C camera doesn't mean they are an APS-C user. Like I said the vast majority of APS-C buyers have likely abandoned ILCs altogether. So there's not this huge mass of "users" waiting for the right camera to buy, and Canon knows this.

I don't understand your argument here. You seem to be saying nearly all APS-C owners never use their cameras. Where do you get this from? Even if half of them still use their cameras it is a very large potential pool of buyers. A heck of a lot of people still use their APS-C cameras as indicated by the fact that Canon still sells many, many DSLR APS-C cameras. Way more than M cameras. Many of these people would likely buy an APS-C camera with an RF mount, if available, instead of a DSLR or M camera.

Not to mention Canon has had a mirrorless system for nearly a decade so if people wanted an APS-C MILC by Canon they had that choice for quite some time.

The M system is anemic which is why it has not grown into a desirable system to most APS-C users. The EF-S cameras sold more in a given year than M cameras sold in its entire existence.

Right, but which year? I'd wager that in 2021 EF-M is outselling EF-S. What happened in 2012 is irrelevant.

I wouldn't take that bet if I were you. Aside from the M6/2, which has never been a popular M camera, there has been little incentive to buy M cameras lately. For some reason people like to think M sales in Japan are an indicator of M sales in the rest of the world. Japan, as a percentage of population, buys more M cameras than most other places in the world mostly because of Canon's long history in this country and its brand recognition there.

The vast majority of APS-C DSLR users rejected the M system.

Again the vast majority of APS-C DSLR "users" probably only bought 1 camera kit, which they aren't evne using today. They didn't just reject the M system; they rejected ILCs entirely.

You keep stating something that is literally pulled from thin air. Are you Professor X and are tied into every APS-C user's mind on the planet? What on earth makes you think nearly all APS-C camera owners never touch their cameras?

It has never been perceived as a serious platform. APS-C in the R system will not have this issue which is why many APS-C users that spurned the M system will buy into the R system.

This is just flat out wrong; we can look to Nikon Z as an indicator of how a crop RF body would do.

IIRC the Z70 has yet to crack 100K sales after... 2 years on the market? A far cry from the millions of DX DSLRs Nikon sold in the DSLR's hey day. There's nothing to say things would go any better for RF, especially when you factor in that they already have EF-M (which in many respects is more developed than EF-S).

Nikon is mostly on life support as a brand these days. They can't even sell FF MILCs in any decent quantity.  Their ability to not sell cameras is irrespective of sensor size.

This happened with FF DSLR users and they have arguably been more critical of ff MILC cameras than DSLR APS-C users have been with APS-C MILC cameras.

Do you have anything to substantiate this?

I have read the forums here for the past several years. The resistance from DSLR FF users to MILC has been stiff. Only with the R6 and R5 have many finally accepted Canon's FF MILC offering as a legitimate substitute for DSLRs. Even now some are still holding out.  IMO, there is less resistance from APS-C DSLR users to move to MILC than FF users.

When it comes to what Canon and the market do we are all speculating and guessing, but your guesses seem completely plucked out of thin air to serve predetermined narratives about where you want the market to go rather than where all the evidence says it will.

My assumptions are no worse than yours at a minimum.

My assumptions are based on sales data and the decisions camera companies have made; I have no idea what your assumptions are based on.

Not all of them are.  Most are not.  I stand by my original statement.

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads