Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
nolten Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

... Meanwhile, both systems can still use the HUGE available of EF lenses with simple adapters.

I refer you to the cancellation list referenced in my post just above. It seems that all EF lenses will be unrepairable in about 5 years. A few EF L lenses may remain, like the TSEs if Canon hasn't released RF versions. As I said, I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not optimistic. In just a short time three of DPR's Canon based forums, , including this one, will have no reason to exist.  Sorry to be so negative.  I was pretty optimistic until I saw that list a week or so ago.

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OP Michael Thomas Mitchell Forum Pro • Posts: 12,158
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

nolten wrote:

You may be right, and I hope you are, especially about the stealth part. Canon has announced development of the R3, no equivalent announcements about anything related to APS-C. Canon Rumors, not Canon, has announced the cancellation of the 55-250 STM lens. To me, this is the seminal lens. Without this lens the EF-S and even EF-M mount cameras become just point and shoots. The cancellation list is pretty impressive and supports my theory. No announcements or rumors about M's future or replacement. I hope I'm wrong. My M6II, 90D, and 5D4 work together as a team sharing important lenses but serving different purposes. There is no cohesive kit on the horizon.

The M lineup of lenses include a 55-200, 15-45, 18-55, 18-150, 11-22, as well as 28 Macro, 22/2 and a bright 32/1.4. Eight lenses...not a huge lineup compared to EF, EFS or even R, but fairly inclusive for a purely consumer/amateur/vlogger market. From the looks of it, the M series will never serve professionals. But again, why would most pros want to go with M at all? Your kit is not cohesive because Canon has essentially abandoned your 90D and 5DIV. And I'm not seeing where they intend for M and R to work together.

If you're an enthusiast or professional, Canon wants you in the R system, period. Maybe one day. My 5DIV and 7DII still look and perform like new. I'm wading into mirrorless playing here and there with my wife's M50, but I'm much too engrained in an optical viewfinder mentality. But Canon isn't too concerned those of us holding onto to our five-year old Mark IVs. That last generation of DSLRs were very good, but Canon is now thoroughly dedicated to mirrorless. In that sense, it's not so much as our cameras are the dinosaurs as it is us.

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OP Michael Thomas Mitchell Forum Pro • Posts: 12,158
Re: So What Will it Take

Myer wrote:

A lot of this technical talk is over my head.

So my question is, what will it take to get an updated 7D Mark II, updated to current technology.

Or maybe the question is simpler with, what will it take to get a 7D Mark II updated with 90D technology.

And mirrorless, of course.

What would be missing?

What would be improved upon?

There were three generations of 1D and 1Ds bodies. The former was an APS-H body built for speed while the latter was a slower, high-resolution body built for the ultimate in resolution. With the 1DX, the line became exclusively full-frame; there was no successor to the APS-H line. Technology had caught up so that a dedicated smaller sensor body was no longer necessary.

I think the same is the case with the 7DII. It was (is) a great camera. But the time when an APS-C version is viable is likely -- in Canon's eyes -- over. There's plenty of speed in the full-frame R line. Even an R6 offers 12/20 fps, same as the pricey R5. The R3 will best them both. There's your replacement for your 7DII. Note: NOT A SUCCESSOR. A replacement. Just as the APS-H 1D series died without a successor, so does the 7DII.

My personal thoughts (as ALL of this is) is that the R3 will sell like hotcakes, even to shooters who don't need the insane speed. It will essentially be a "little R1". And the faster tech will trickle down to the next generations of lower models. Just a guess, of course. I have no crystal ball. I just don't see APS-C invading the R line.

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MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

nolten wrote:

You may be right, and I hope you are, especially about the stealth part. Canon has announced development of the R3, no equivalent announcements about anything related to APS-C. Canon Rumors, not Canon, has announced the cancellation of the 55-250 STM lens. To me, this is the seminal lens. Without this lens the EF-S and even EF-M mount cameras become just point and shoots. The cancellation list is pretty impressive and supports my theory. No announcements or rumors about M's future or replacement. I hope I'm wrong. My M6II, 90D, and 5D4 work together as a team sharing important lenses but serving different purposes. There is no cohesive kit on the horizon.

I agree that cancellation of so many EF/EF-S lenses affects the M line almost as much as the APS-C DSLRs.  Another tell for me is that as Canon has all but ceased APS-C DSLR development, they have done nothing new with the M system to pick up the slack and entice APS-C DSLR users to buy M cameras and lenses.  IMO, Canon likely mapped out where they were going with APS-C at least five years ago and maybe even earlier.  If they have known for years that APS-C would be consolidated in the R system then their negligence regarding the M system for many years makes a lot of sense.  They have little invested in the M system.  Also, the M users likely have little invested in the M system, relatively speaking, because there just isn't that much M gear to invest in.  However, any EF/EF-S lenses they have will migrate seamlessly to the R system.  In fact, the way Canon has developed the R system has been a nasty smack in the face to the M system.

Also, Nikon and Sony have an APS-C presence in their FF MILC mounts and this is another reason for Canon to do the same in the long term.  I could be wrong but I just don't see Canon abandoning APS-C altogether.  I also don't see Canon building the M system to be anything substantial or they would have started doing this when the R system launched.  This leaves APS-C to be done in the R system long term.  I see the R system as the complete successor to the EF system which includes the EF, EF-S AND EF-M mounts.  I think they will eventually kill off ALL EF based cameras, lenses and accessories.

nolten Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

The M lineup of lenses include a 55-200, 15-45, 18-55, 18-150, 11-22, as well as 28 Macro, 22/2 and a bright 32/1.4. Eight lenses...not a huge lineup compared to EF, EFS or even R, but fairly inclusive for a purely consumer/amateur/vlogger market. From the looks of it, the M series will never serve professionals. But again, why would most pros want to go with M at all? Your kit is not cohesive because Canon has essentially abandoned your 90D and 5DIV. And I'm not seeing where they intend for M and R to work together.

If you're an enthusiast or professional, Canon wants you in the R system, period. Maybe one day. My 5DIV and 7DII still look and perform like new. I'm wading into mirrorless playing here and there with my wife's M50, but I'm much too engrained in an optical viewfinder mentality. But Canon isn't too concerned those of us holding onto to our five-year old Mark IVs. That last generation of DSLRs were very good, but Canon is now thoroughly dedicated to mirrorless. In that sense, it's not so much as our cameras are the dinosaurs as it is us.

I think we agree on pretty much everything. Except that the EF-M 18-55 is no more, but thats minor. The M6II is my first M and the majority of M users over on the M forum supplement their Ms with EF mount lenses. The M, limited to native lenses, becomes a Rebel kit set, still the best selling Canon at Amazon. Perhaps Canon intends M as the new consumer kit since some of the Rebel kit lenses are on the block. Dunno. Killing the Rebels seems foolish to me from Canon's perspective but they are going through a major sea change and M's fate seems minor. I think RP is the new Rebel with the RF STM lenses.

I agree I'm a dinosaur. I prefer OVFs and don't see any R body, regardless of viewfinder, that betters my 5D4, 90D, M, and G for landscape, wildlife, travel. And my many year lens collection does everything I need. I have spares of most critical components and will probably buy a few more as they are terminated, like spare M and G. Probably cost less than one RF L lens. My kit should last 10 to 20 years and that is all I'd probably need. Who knows, maybe in 10 years the new camera landscape will look more attractive to me again.

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MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: So What Will it Take
2

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

Myer wrote:

A lot of this technical talk is over my head.

So my question is, what will it take to get an updated 7D Mark II, updated to current technology.

Or maybe the question is simpler with, what will it take to get a 7D Mark II updated with 90D technology.

And mirrorless, of course.

What would be missing?

What would be improved upon?

There were three generations of 1D and 1Ds bodies. The former was an APS-H body built for speed while the latter was a slower, high-resolution body built for the ultimate in resolution. With the 1DX, the line became exclusively full-frame; there was no successor to the APS-H line. Technology had caught up so that a dedicated smaller sensor body was no longer necessary.

I think the same is the case with the 7DII. It was (is) a great camera. But the time when an APS-C version is viable is likely -- in Canon's eyes -- over. There's plenty of speed in the full-frame R line. Even an R6 offers 12/20 fps, same as the pricey R5. The R3 will best them both. There's your replacement for your 7DII. Note: NOT A SUCCESSOR. A replacement. Just as the APS-H 1D series died without a successor, so does the 7DII.

My personal thoughts (as ALL of this is) is that the R3 will sell like hotcakes, even to shooters who don't need the insane speed. It will essentially be a "little R1". And the faster tech will trickle down to the next generations of lower models. Just a guess, of course. I have no crystal ball. I just don't see APS-C invading the R line.

Actually, there is currently no replacement for the 7D/2 in the R system.  One of the main reasons, and arguably the most important one, is the pixel density an APS-C sensor puts on the target.  That crop factor is very important to everyone that finds the 7D series so useful.  This makes long lenses much more effective for little penalty in IQ and makes post processing much more pleasant and less time/storage consuming.

Also, the R3 is going to be priced higher than the R5 which makes it a non-starter for nearly all 7D users.

MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

nolten wrote:

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

The M lineup of lenses include a 55-200, 15-45, 18-55, 18-150, 11-22, as well as 28 Macro, 22/2 and a bright 32/1.4. Eight lenses...not a huge lineup compared to EF, EFS or even R, but fairly inclusive for a purely consumer/amateur/vlogger market. From the looks of it, the M series will never serve professionals. But again, why would most pros want to go with M at all? Your kit is not cohesive because Canon has essentially abandoned your 90D and 5DIV. And I'm not seeing where they intend for M and R to work together.

If you're an enthusiast or professional, Canon wants you in the R system, period. Maybe one day. My 5DIV and 7DII still look and perform like new. I'm wading into mirrorless playing here and there with my wife's M50, but I'm much too engrained in an optical viewfinder mentality. But Canon isn't too concerned those of us holding onto to our five-year old Mark IVs. That last generation of DSLRs were very good, but Canon is now thoroughly dedicated to mirrorless. In that sense, it's not so much as our cameras are the dinosaurs as it is us.

I think we agree on pretty much everything. Except that the EF-M 18-55 is no more, but thats minor. The M6II is my first M and the majority of M users over on the M forum supplement their Ms with EF mount lenses. The M, limited to native lenses, becomes a Rebel kit set, still the best selling Canon at Amazon. Perhaps Canon intends M as the new consumer kit since some of the Rebel kit lenses are on the block. Dunno. Killing the Rebels seems foolish to me from Canon's perspective but they are going through a major sea change and M's fate seems minor. I think RP is the new Rebel with the RF STM lenses.

I agree I'm a dinosaur. I prefer OVFs and don't see any R body, regardless of viewfinder, that betters my 5D4 + 90D for landscape, wildlife, travel. And my many year lens collection does everything I need. I have spares of most critical components and will probably buy a few more as they are terminated, like spare M and G. Probably cost less than one RF L lens. My kit should last 10 to 20 years and that is all I'd probably need. Who knows, maybe in 10 years the new camera landscape will look more attractive to me again.

I think the biggest reason Canon will ultimately let the M system die is because of the complete incompatibility between the EF-M and RF mounts.  Many M users will never migrate to the RF mount if APS-C R cameras aren't available.  More won't migrate because their EF-M lenses are useless in the R system.  IMO, Canon needs the R system to succeed far more than keeping the M system going.  The success of the M system takes away from the success of the R system.  The only way they can solve this problem is to give EF/EF-S/EF-M users a home in the R system.  There are no technical reasons Canon can't provide cameras and lenses in the R system to accommodate DSLR and M system users.  Personally, I think if/when Canon brings APS-C to the R system there will be a big migration of M users and APS-C DSLR users very quickly.

nolten Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

I think we all agree that R is the future.  I have no crystal ball, but it is a totally open question regarding APS-C in an R mount.  No hints at APS-C specific R lenses.  I see RP as the new Rebel, but full frame based.  The M, G1X?  Totally open questions.  I see the FF R system and a few Sony sensored Powershots as a plausible Canon future.  Time will tell.

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nolten Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

That is certainly a real possibility.  Is there a technically possible M to R mount?  I've been upgrading bodies for a decade and a half.  Lenses not so much.

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nolten Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: So What Will it Take

I have only experimented with my M6II's 30 fps, and I turned down the 14 fps to 7 as a default.  But I like knowing they are there. 

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Distinctly Average Senior Member • Posts: 1,206
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

nolten wrote:

Is there a technically possible M to R mount?

From everything I have read, it is not possible to adapt M glass to the RF mount.

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Distinctly Average Senior Member • Posts: 1,206
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

nolten wrote:

I think we all agree that R is the future. I have no crystal ball, but it is a totally open question regarding APS-C in an R mount. No hints at APS-C specific R lenses. I see RP as the new Rebel, but full frame based. The M, G1X? Totally open questions. I see the FF R system and a few Sony sensored Powershots as a plausible Canon future. Time will tell.

Canon have shown they can produce cheap FF lenses, so the market for crop only lenses is now minimal. Probably only UWA, such as 10-XX would be needed. There may be a desire for the odd vlogging lens too, and maybe some interesting oddities.

If/When Canon do a crop R body it would be a great stepping stone camera for many, especially those with a lot of EF-S glass. This could be true for even a higher end model.

As I have already said, I for one would buy a high end circa £3k crop bodied R7, an R6 with a crop sensor and probably a few sports/wildlife specific features.

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nolten Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

Thanks.  I've heard the other way is out, but ...

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nolten Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

Possible, but so far only rumors. There is a DPR article below, "Canon's 32MP chip marks the end of the 24MP APS-C era", I'm worried the truth is Canon's 32MP chip marks the end of the APS-C era.  Time will tell.

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MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

nolten wrote:

I think we all agree that R is the future. I have no crystal ball, but it is a totally open question regarding APS-C in an R mount. No hints at APS-C specific R lenses. I see RP as the new Rebel, but full frame based. The M, G1X? Totally open questions. I see the FF R system and a few Sony sensored Powershots as a plausible Canon future. Time will tell.

I think P&S cameras are squarely in the cross hairs of smartphone makers.  The Samsung S21 Ultra and other similar models now have 24-240mm OPTICAL zoom capability and 48-108 mp sensors with all the computational software supporting this hardware.  In 3-5 years, and as many smartphone iterations, they will probably make all but the highest end P&S cameras redundant.

I think if Canon does come out with APS-C in the RF mount they will give us 2-3 bodies and 2-3 APS-C specific lenses in a short period of time.

MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

nolten wrote:

That is certainly a real possibility. Is there a technically possible M to R mount? I've been upgrading bodies for a decade and a half. Lenses not so much.

The way Canon designed the two mounts they are physically incompatible with each other.  It is if Canon went out of their way to make sure the lenses for each mount would never be interchangeable.

RedFox88 Forum Pro • Posts: 30,484
Re: So What Will it Take
2

Myer wrote:

A lot of this technical talk is over my head.

So my question is, what will it take to get an updated 7D Mark II, updated to current technology.

Or maybe the question is simpler with, what will it take to get a 7D Mark II updated with 90D technology.

And mirrorless, of course.

What would be missing?

You’ve missed that the R5 is better than what a 7D3 would be

What would be improved upon?

Jeff Peterman
MOD Jeff Peterman Forum Pro • Posts: 13,513
Re: So What Will it Take
2

"You’ve missed that the R5 is better than what a 7D3 would be"

But that was true with the 5D MKIV and the 7D2 too: the difference was that the 5D was much more expensive, and I'd expect a crop version of the R5 (R7?) to be significantly cheaper than the R5 too.

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OP Michael Thomas Mitchell Forum Pro • Posts: 12,158
Re: So What Will it Take
1

Jeff Peterman wrote:

"You’ve missed that the R5 is better than what a 7D3 would be"

But that was true with the 5D MKIV and the 7D2 too: the difference was that the 5D was much more expensive, and I'd expect a crop version of the R5 (R7?) to be significantly cheaper than the R5 too.

And therein lies the problem that I've outlined. The 7DII was considerably cheaper than the 5DIII/IV precisely because it utilized an APS-C sensor. Otherwise, the cameras were virtually identical. Today, that cost differential in the sensors just doesn't make that possible because the manufacturing costs of the larger sensors have come down so much that even an RP costs less than a third of the original 5D from fifteen years earlier. And even then it would presume that Canon is even inclined to put an APS-C sensor in an R body. And so far there is no evidence of that. So where does a successor to the 7DII even fit in the R line if it needs to be cheaper than the R5? The answer is that it doesn't.

I think pro-quality APS-C in the Canon line reached a dead end with the 7DII, no differently than APS-H died with the 1D Mark IV. If Canon continues with APS-C, my guess is that it will be in consumer grade cameras, mostly likely the M series. Given that the original M50 was Canon's best selling camera just a year ago, the M line seems secure for now.

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MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: So What Will it Take
2

RedFox88 wrote:

Myer wrote:

A lot of this technical talk is over my head.

So my question is, what will it take to get an updated 7D Mark II, updated to current technology.

Or maybe the question is simpler with, what will it take to get a 7D Mark II updated with 90D technology.

And mirrorless, of course.

What would be missing?

You’ve missed that the R5 is better than what a 7D3 would be

Not regarding reach and pixel density on the target.  To match pixel density of Canon's 32mp APS-C sensor the R5 would need around an 80mp sensor.

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