Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
Michael Thomas Mitchell Forum Pro • Posts: 12,158
Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
3

I believe that today's announcement of the new R3 reveals the future of the rumored 7DII successor R7: it's not going to happen.

Canon's APS-C sensor-based cameras began with the original 3MP D30 twenty years ago out of necessity; cost and development simply did not yet support a full-frame sensor body debut. Even after the release of their first full-frame body, the 1Ds, APS-C bodies continued out of necessity and predominated, even across other brands.

An APS-C "R7" simply does not fit anywhere in Canon's lineup. It is not necessary. It would be a black sheep. Fast, yes. But the sensor? No.

The announced R3 looks every bit like the speed-centric rumored R7... except in sensor size. The tech now no longer requires a smaller sensor to have blazing speed. I've said for years that the 7DII was essentially an APS-C 5DIII/IV that offered the benefit of speed made possible by the smaller resolution sensor.

Meanwhile, the M series remains fully APS-C. It is a very popular platform with vloggers, Youtubers, and travelers. The benefit is clear: small, lightweight and inexpensive. And for those who need it, there's even speed that still rivals and exceeds the 90D.

And so I'm calling it: the R platform is going to remain full-frame, while the M platform will continue to offer the advantages of APS-C. The announced R3 essentially is the successor, of sorts, to the 7DII: an "R7" in all but name. Now full-frame, it sits above the R5 in the product line rather than below.

We'll see.

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Jack Calypso Contributing Member • Posts: 711
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

M system supporters want more development in the system. Action shooters want RF-on-APS-C.

To satisfy both, make an EOS-RM camera, APS-C with IBIS, a nice shutter, and interchangeable lens mounts.

Add interchangeable top plates for with and without EVF, to quiet arguments about those.

OP Michael Thomas Mitchell Forum Pro • Posts: 12,158
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

Jack Calypso wrote:

M system supporters want more development in the system. Action shooters want RF-on-APS-C.

My wife has an M50. It's a nice little camera. But compared to EFS, the lenses are too expensive for what they are, and I don't see any third party development. Still, they are very popular with Youtubers.

To satisfy both, make an EOS-RM camera, APS-C with IBIS, a nice shutter, and interchangeable lens mounts.

Canon's mirrorless strategy seems apparent now: APS-C for the M format and full-frame for R. And they do not appear to be concerned about pros using the M system.

Add interchangeable top plates for with and without EVF, to quiet arguments about those.

Canon also seems committed to pure mirrorless. And the M6II's add-on EVF seems to be one of the most disdained features they've yet introduced in that system.

 Michael Thomas Mitchell's gear list:Michael Thomas Mitchell's gear list
Canon EOS-1D Mark II Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EOS 80D Canon EOS 7D Mark II GoPro Hero7 Black +6 more
Jack Calypso Contributing Member • Posts: 711
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

Jack Calypso wrote:

M system supporters want more development in the system. Action shooters want RF-on-APS-C.

My wife has an M50. It's a nice little camera. But compared to EFS, the lenses are too expensive for what they are, and I don't see any third party development. Still, they are very popular with Youtubers.

To satisfy both, make an EOS-RM camera, APS-C with IBIS, a nice shutter, and interchangeable lens mounts.

Canon's mirrorless strategy seems apparent now: APS-C for the M format and full-frame for R. And they do not appear to be concerned about pros using the M system.

Add interchangeable top plates for with and without EVF, to quiet arguments about those.

Canon also seems committed to pure mirrorless. And the M6II's add-on EVF seems to be one of the most disdained features they've yet introduced in that system.

Just letting my imagination run away . . .

I have an RP and an M6 mkII. The RP doesn't see a lot of use yet while I wait for the RF lens I ordered. My "Standard Zoom" is the old 28-135mm which is nothing special (plus, the I.S. is LOUD!).

The M6 is the one I gravitate to. I've put together a fair amount of kit around it in the short time I've had it.

I'm trying to decide what to do about my 80D. It's still recent enough that i don't feel too hobbled by it. The added features of the 90D are very cool, but I have the sensor in the M6, so I can defer that. I have really taken to mirrorless in a big way, and struggle to think of when I'd want to use a DSLR now.

MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,976
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

Jack Calypso wrote:

M system supporters want more development in the system. Action shooters want RF-on-APS-C.

To satisfy both, make an EOS-RM camera, APS-C with IBIS, a nice shutter, and interchangeable lens mounts.

Add interchangeable top plates for with and without EVF, to quiet arguments about those.

The EF-M mount is wholly incompatible with the RF mount.  The flange distance and diameter for the two mounts makes the camera you are referring to not possible.  Plus, I don't think Canon would sully the reputation of the R system by tying it to the M system even if it was possible.

Jack Calypso Contributing Member • Posts: 711
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

I think my post is fourteen days late ...

MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,976
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
11

I don't see the R3 having any bearing on whether a R7 comes to the R system.  The R3 is going to be a FF camera likely to cost between $4.5k-$6k.  The R7 will be a $2k camera.  They will not compete with each other.  There are many people who want APS-C in the R system.  I am one of them and would gladly pay $1.5k-$2k for a camera with the specs of the R6 and an APS-C sensor.  Most of the millions of people currently using Canon APS-C DSLRs will never move to the M system and I doubt Canon wants them going elsewhere.  I think the odds are very good that APS-C will come to the R system.  IMO, Canon doesn't want to show its hand regarding APS-C in the R system because doing so would decimate M sales and they want to milk that camera/lens line for all the can for as long as they can.

Mark B.
Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 28,299
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

I believe that today's announcement of the new R3 reveals the future of the rumored 7DII successor R7: it's not going to happen.

Not this year.

Canon's APS-C sensor-based cameras began with the original 3MP D30 twenty years ago out of necessity; cost and development simply did not yet support a full-frame sensor body debut. Even after the release of their first full-frame body, the 1Ds, APS-C bodies continued out of necessity and predominated, even across other brands.

An APS-C "R7" simply does not fit anywhere in Canon's lineup. It is not necessary.

Sure it does. It would slot in right where the current 7D II is; somewhere between $1,500 and $2k. Sports shooters and birders still want a fast, high performing AF body that will take advantage of the crop factor.

It would be a black sheep. Fast, yes. But the sensor? No.

The announced R3 looks every bit like the speed-centric rumored R7... except in sensor size.

It's a 1Dx series mirrorless.

The tech now no longer requires a smaller sensor to have blazing speed. I've said for years that the 7DII was essentially an APS-C 5DIII/IV that offered the benefit of speed made possible by the smaller resolution sensor.

Meanwhile, the M series remains fully APS-C. It is a very popular platform with vloggers, Youtubers, and travelers. The benefit is clear: small, lightweight and inexpensive. And for those who need it, there's even speed that still rivals and exceeds the 90D.

The M format is absolutely not a substitute for the 7D II.

And so I'm calling it: the R platform is going to remain full-frame, while the M platform will continue to offer the advantages of APS-C. The announced R3 essentially is the successor, of sorts, to the 7DII: an "R7" in all but name. Now full-frame, it sits above the R5 in the product line rather than below.

We'll see.

Time will tell. No surprise that there won't be an R7 this year, though.

Messier Object Forum Pro • Posts: 10,866
what about the R1 ?
2

By the same ‘logic’ we might conclude that there’s no place now for an R1

Peter

OP Michael Thomas Mitchell Forum Pro • Posts: 12,158
Re: what about the R1 ?
1

Messier Object wrote:

By the same ‘logic’ we might conclude that there’s no place now for an R1

Peter

Not at all. Sensor size was not the only difference between the 1D-series and the 7D-series.

The point is that, from a marketing perspective,  there's really no need for a fast APS-C R3-type body. If an R3 might retail at a price point higher than an R5, it would probably be in the $4K-4.5K range. A theoretical R-series successor to the 7DII would need to be in the $2.5K range. (The original price for the 7DII was about $2K, and the R-series cameras seem to debut roughly 25% higher than their DSLR predecessors.) It is unrealistic to expect what would essentially be an APS-C version of an R3 to cost up to $2K less, especially when the entry-level full-frame RP has retails for under $1K.

At the moment, Canon has two wholly distinct product lines: an APS-C M-series and a full-frame R-series.

  • RP   1000   Entry
  • R     1800   Standard
  • R6   2600   Enthusiast
  • R5   3800   Professional high-resolution standard
  • R3   4500   Professional fast (actual price unknown)
  • R1   ????     Flagship (unknown but presumed)

While the R3 is built for speed, it likely won't have features I would expect in an R1 such as a global shutter and quad-pixel AF. An R1 will likely also feature a new large battery system. The question for the R3 is whether or not the "1D-inspired" body would also include the same large battery system. I would expect an R1 to cost well beyond 1DX-series prices.

I leave some question as to whether and/or how the R and RP models might ultimately shake out. With the RP, Canon was clearly showing a desire to have an entry-level full-frame R-series body. The specs on the RP are, accordingly, underwhelming for any enthusiast, much less professional; it's basically an R-series Rebel. The original R now seems only there to fill a price point, like an advanced Rebel. The R6 is a solid entry for enthusiasts, while the R5 and R3 are clearly aimed at the same pro-oriented crowd as the 5DIV and 7DII, albeit the latter now with a full-frame sensor; basically, affordable tools for the professional. Then, of course, the R1 as the ultimate flagship camera featuring the most advanced tech at a premium price.

Note that this line can still accommodate an ultra-high resolution body in the same spirit as the 5Ds/r. (And could still accommodate such even with a rumored medium format.)

Looking at the lineup, it's clear what DOESN'T belong here: an APS-C body. Here are several reasons why:

  1. A successor to the 7DII would feature speed in a tough body. That's what the R3 seems to offer.
  2. With EVF, a digital "crop-mode" for extra "reach" is not only possible but far more practical. To the user, there would be virtually no difference.
  3. No APS-C-specific R-series lenses. With the potential for crop-mode, the only advantage to an APS-C sensor body is the potential for smaller lenses. Lenses are not merely a product; they are part of an "eco-system" of products. There's no hint of any such lenses in development. And a theoretical APS-C R-series 7DII successor would be the ONLY body to be able to take advantage of them.

I always thought the 7DII was a bargain. It was basically a very fast 5DIII/IV made possible by an APS-C sensor but costing significantly less. Those market conditions simply do not exist any longer. Where APS-C sensor were once necessary for cost and speed, their biggest advantage now is for camera and lens size. The R3 looks more like a smaller brother to a potential R1. Thus, it may not necessarily be a direct successor to the 7DII, but it does essentially replace it.

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Mark B.
Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 28,299
Re: what about the R1 ?
1

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

Messier Object wrote:

By the same ‘logic’ we might conclude that there’s no place now for an R1

Peter

Not at all. Sensor size was not the only difference between the 1D-series and the 7D-series.

The point is that, from a marketing perspective, there's really no need for a fast APS-C R3-type body. If an R3 might retail at a price point higher than an R5, it would probably be in the $4K-4.5K range. A theoretical R-series successor to the 7DII would need to be in the $2.5K range. (The original price for the 7DII was about $2K, and the R-series cameras seem to debut roughly 25% higher than their DSLR predecessors.) It is unrealistic to expect what would essentially be an APS-C version of an R3 to cost up to $2K less, especially when the entry-level full-frame RP has retails for under $1K.

At the moment, Canon has two wholly distinct product lines: an APS-C M-series and a full-frame R-series.

  • RP 1000 Entry
  • R 1800 Standard
  • R6 2600 Enthusiast
  • R5 3800 Professional high-resolution standard
  • R3 4500 Professional fast (actual price unknown)
  • R1 ???? Flagship (unknown but presumed)

While the R3 is built for speed, it likely won't have features I would expect in an R1 such as a global shutter and quad-pixel AF. An R1 will likely also feature a new large battery system. The question for the R3 is whether or not the "1D-inspired" body would also include the same large battery system. I would expect an R1 to cost well beyond 1DX-series prices.

I leave some question as to whether and/or how the R and RP models might ultimately shake out. With the RP, Canon was clearly showing a desire to have an entry-level full-frame R-series body. The specs on the RP are, accordingly, underwhelming for any enthusiast, much less professional; it's basically an R-series Rebel. The original R now seems only there to fill a price point, like an advanced Rebel. The R6 is a solid entry for enthusiasts, while the R5 and R3 are clearly aimed at the same pro-oriented crowd as the 5DIV and 7DII, albeit the latter now with a full-frame sensor; basically, affordable tools for the professional. Then, of course, the R1 as the ultimate flagship camera featuring the most advanced tech at a premium price.

Note that this line can still accommodate an ultra-high resolution body in the same spirit as the 5Ds/r. (And could still accommodate such even with a rumored medium format.)

Looking at the lineup, it's clear what DOESN'T belong here: an APS-C body. Here are several reasons why:

  1. A successor to the 7DII would feature speed in a tough body. That's what the R3 seems to offer.

No, the R3 is a FF sensor in a fully gripped body at a cost no doubt 3x or higher.  The R3 is a top of the line mirrorless for the pro, or enthusiast with deep pockets.  It is in no way, shape, or form a successor to the 7D II.

  1. With EVF, a digital "crop-mode" for extra "reach" is not only possible but far more practical. To the user, there would be virtually no difference.
  2. No APS-C-specific R-series lenses. With the potential for crop-mode, the only advantage to an APS-C sensor body is the potential for smaller lenses. Lenses are not merely a product; they are part of an "eco-system" of products. There's no hint of any such lenses in development. And a theoretical APS-C R-series 7DII successor would be the ONLY body to be able to take advantage of them.

Many users of the 7D II are already using FF lenses for sports/birding.  I only use EF-S lenses as a matter of convenience (bundled with the body) or to save a few bucks for wide angle.

I always thought the 7DII was a bargain. It was basically a very fast 5DIII/IV made possible by an APS-C sensor but costing significantly less. Those market conditions simply do not exist any longer. Where APS-C sensor were once necessary for cost and speed, their biggest advantage now is for camera and lens size. The R3 looks more like a smaller brother to a potential R1. Thus, it may not necessarily be a direct successor to the 7DII, but it does essentially replace it.

No, a $6,000+ mirrorless does not "essentially" replace a sub-$2k crop sensor body.  I'm neither a pro nor a 2-percenter.

OP Michael Thomas Mitchell Forum Pro • Posts: 12,158
Re: what about the R1 ?
1

Mark B. wrote:

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

Messier Object wrote:

By the same ‘logic’ we might conclude that there’s no place now for an R1

Peter

Not at all. Sensor size was not the only difference between the 1D-series and the 7D-series.

The point is that, from a marketing perspective, there's really no need for a fast APS-C R3-type body. If an R3 might retail at a price point higher than an R5, it would probably be in the $4K-4.5K range. A theoretical R-series successor to the 7DII would need to be in the $2.5K range. (The original price for the 7DII was about $2K, and the R-series cameras seem to debut roughly 25% higher than their DSLR predecessors.) It is unrealistic to expect what would essentially be an APS-C version of an R3 to cost up to $2K less, especially when the entry-level full-frame RP has retails for under $1K.

At the moment, Canon has two wholly distinct product lines: an APS-C M-series and a full-frame R-series.

  • RP 1000 Entry
  • R 1800 Standard
  • R6 2600 Enthusiast
  • R5 3800 Professional high-resolution standard
  • R3 4500 Professional fast (actual price unknown)
  • R1 ???? Flagship (unknown but presumed)

While the R3 is built for speed, it likely won't have features I would expect in an R1 such as a global shutter and quad-pixel AF. An R1 will likely also feature a new large battery system. The question for the R3 is whether or not the "1D-inspired" body would also include the same large battery system. I would expect an R1 to cost well beyond 1DX-series prices.

I leave some question as to whether and/or how the R and RP models might ultimately shake out. With the RP, Canon was clearly showing a desire to have an entry-level full-frame R-series body. The specs on the RP are, accordingly, underwhelming for any enthusiast, much less professional; it's basically an R-series Rebel. The original R now seems only there to fill a price point, like an advanced Rebel. The R6 is a solid entry for enthusiasts, while the R5 and R3 are clearly aimed at the same pro-oriented crowd as the 5DIV and 7DII, albeit the latter now with a full-frame sensor; basically, affordable tools for the professional. Then, of course, the R1 as the ultimate flagship camera featuring the most advanced tech at a premium price.

Note that this line can still accommodate an ultra-high resolution body in the same spirit as the 5Ds/r. (And could still accommodate such even with a rumored medium format.)

Looking at the lineup, it's clear what DOESN'T belong here: an APS-C body. Here are several reasons why:

  1. A successor to the 7DII would feature speed in a tough body. That's what the R3 seems to offer.

No, the R3 is a FF sensor in a fully gripped body at a cost no doubt 3x or higher. The R3 is a top of the line mirrorless for the pro, or enthusiast with deep pockets. It is in no way, shape, or form a successor to the 7D II.

  1. With EVF, a digital "crop-mode" for extra "reach" is not only possible but far more practical. To the user, there would be virtually no difference.
  2. No APS-C-specific R-series lenses. With the potential for crop-mode, the only advantage to an APS-C sensor body is the potential for smaller lenses. Lenses are not merely a product; they are part of an "eco-system" of products. There's no hint of any such lenses in development. And a theoretical APS-C R-series 7DII successor would be the ONLY body to be able to take advantage of them.

Many users of the 7D II are already using FF lenses for sports/birding. I only use EF-S lenses as a matter of convenience (bundled with the body) or to save a few bucks for wide angle.

I always thought the 7DII was a bargain. It was basically a very fast 5DIII/IV made possible by an APS-C sensor but costing significantly less. Those market conditions simply do not exist any longer. Where APS-C sensor were once necessary for cost and speed, their biggest advantage now is for camera and lens size. The R3 looks more like a smaller brother to a potential R1. Thus, it may not necessarily be a direct successor to the 7DII, but it does essentially replace it.

No, a $6,000+ mirrorless does not "essentially" replace a sub-$2k crop sensor body. I'm neither a pro nor a 2-percenter.

As I said, it is not a direct "successor". And there never was a fast full-frame "D3" model for an R3 to succeed. But it does eliminate the need for one from a technical standpoint.

Your biggest complaint is about price point. We were fortunate with the 7DII, which essentially gave us near-1D capability in a 5D-quality body for far less than the cost of either of those two cameras. That cost was possible ONLY because of the cost disadvantage of full-frame sensors at the time. In a world of the sub-$1K ful-frame RP, that disadvantage has clearly evaporated. And the ability of a full-frame EVF to have a built-in crop mode makes the smaller sensor unnecessary.

In order to have a 7DII replacement in the R system, the body would need to be on par with the R5 yet offer faster operation for a price nearly $1.5K less than the R5 and just a few hundred less more than the standard (!) EOS R. An APS-C sensor could have gotten you that seven years ago. It doesn't today. Economics simply do not make an APS-C ~$2K "R7" viable any longer. But of course, this is all just speculation.

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Canon EOS-1D Mark II Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EOS 80D Canon EOS 7D Mark II GoPro Hero7 Black +6 more
Mark B.
Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 28,299
Re: what about the R1 ?

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

Messier Object wrote:

By the same ‘logic’ we might conclude that there’s no place now for an R1

Peter

Not at all. Sensor size was not the only difference between the 1D-series and the 7D-series.

The point is that, from a marketing perspective, there's really no need for a fast APS-C R3-type body. If an R3 might retail at a price point higher than an R5, it would probably be in the $4K-4.5K range. A theoretical R-series successor to the 7DII would need to be in the $2.5K range. (The original price for the 7DII was about $2K, and the R-series cameras seem to debut roughly 25% higher than their DSLR predecessors.) It is unrealistic to expect what would essentially be an APS-C version of an R3 to cost up to $2K less, especially when the entry-level full-frame RP has retails for under $1K.

At the moment, Canon has two wholly distinct product lines: an APS-C M-series and a full-frame R-series.

  • RP 1000 Entry
  • R 1800 Standard
  • R6 2600 Enthusiast
  • R5 3800 Professional high-resolution standard
  • R3 4500 Professional fast (actual price unknown)
  • R1 ???? Flagship (unknown but presumed)

While the R3 is built for speed, it likely won't have features I would expect in an R1 such as a global shutter and quad-pixel AF. An R1 will likely also feature a new large battery system. The question for the R3 is whether or not the "1D-inspired" body would also include the same large battery system. I would expect an R1 to cost well beyond 1DX-series prices.

I leave some question as to whether and/or how the R and RP models might ultimately shake out. With the RP, Canon was clearly showing a desire to have an entry-level full-frame R-series body. The specs on the RP are, accordingly, underwhelming for any enthusiast, much less professional; it's basically an R-series Rebel. The original R now seems only there to fill a price point, like an advanced Rebel. The R6 is a solid entry for enthusiasts, while the R5 and R3 are clearly aimed at the same pro-oriented crowd as the 5DIV and 7DII, albeit the latter now with a full-frame sensor; basically, affordable tools for the professional. Then, of course, the R1 as the ultimate flagship camera featuring the most advanced tech at a premium price.

Note that this line can still accommodate an ultra-high resolution body in the same spirit as the 5Ds/r. (And could still accommodate such even with a rumored medium format.)

Looking at the lineup, it's clear what DOESN'T belong here: an APS-C body. Here are several reasons why:

  1. A successor to the 7DII would feature speed in a tough body. That's what the R3 seems to offer.

No, the R3 is a FF sensor in a fully gripped body at a cost no doubt 3x or higher. The R3 is a top of the line mirrorless for the pro, or enthusiast with deep pockets. It is in no way, shape, or form a successor to the 7D II.

  1. With EVF, a digital "crop-mode" for extra "reach" is not only possible but far more practical. To the user, there would be virtually no difference.
  2. No APS-C-specific R-series lenses. With the potential for crop-mode, the only advantage to an APS-C sensor body is the potential for smaller lenses. Lenses are not merely a product; they are part of an "eco-system" of products. There's no hint of any such lenses in development. And a theoretical APS-C R-series 7DII successor would be the ONLY body to be able to take advantage of them.

Many users of the 7D II are already using FF lenses for sports/birding. I only use EF-S lenses as a matter of convenience (bundled with the body) or to save a few bucks for wide angle.

I always thought the 7DII was a bargain. It was basically a very fast 5DIII/IV made possible by an APS-C sensor but costing significantly less. Those market conditions simply do not exist any longer. Where APS-C sensor were once necessary for cost and speed, their biggest advantage now is for camera and lens size. The R3 looks more like a smaller brother to a potential R1. Thus, it may not necessarily be a direct successor to the 7DII, but it does essentially replace it.

No, a $6,000+ mirrorless does not "essentially" replace a sub-$2k crop sensor body. I'm neither a pro nor a 2-percenter.

As I said, it is not a direct "successor". And there never was a fast full-frame "D3" model for an R3 to succeed. But it does eliminate the need for one from a technical standpoint.

Your biggest complaint is about price point. We were fortunate with the 7DII, which essentially gave us near-1D capability in a 5D-quality body for far less than the cost of either of those two cameras. That cost was possible ONLY because of the cost disadvantage of full-frame sensors at the time. In a world of the sub-$1K ful-frame RP, that disadvantage has clearly evaporated.

Thev only thing the RP has for it over the 7Dii, other than price, is the FF sensor.  It lags way behind in every other spec that counts where 7Dii users would want it for - frame rate, durability, af speed, buffer size, weather sealing, etc.  There's a very good reason for it to be priced below a high- performance crop body.

And the ability of a full-frame EVF to have a built-in crop mode makes the smaller sensor unnecessary.

Not in the RP it doesn't.

In order to have a 7DII replacement in the R system, the body would need to be on par with the R5 yet offer faster operation for a price nearly $1.5K less than the R5 and just a few hundred less more than the standard (!) EOS R. An APS-C sensor could have gotten you that seven years ago. It doesn't today. Economics simply do not make an APS-C ~$2K "R7" viable any longer. But of course, this is all just speculation.

Yes it is all speculation, we so agree on that.

OP Michael Thomas Mitchell Forum Pro • Posts: 12,158
Re: what about the R1 ?

Mark B. wrote:

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

Messier Object wrote:

By the same ‘logic’ we might conclude that there’s no place now for an R1

Peter

Not at all. Sensor size was not the only difference between the 1D-series and the 7D-series.

The point is that, from a marketing perspective, there's really no need for a fast APS-C R3-type body. If an R3 might retail at a price point higher than an R5, it would probably be in the $4K-4.5K range. A theoretical R-series successor to the 7DII would need to be in the $2.5K range. (The original price for the 7DII was about $2K, and the R-series cameras seem to debut roughly 25% higher than their DSLR predecessors.) It is unrealistic to expect what would essentially be an APS-C version of an R3 to cost up to $2K less, especially when the entry-level full-frame RP has retails for under $1K.

At the moment, Canon has two wholly distinct product lines: an APS-C M-series and a full-frame R-series.

  • RP 1000 Entry
  • R 1800 Standard
  • R6 2600 Enthusiast
  • R5 3800 Professional high-resolution standard
  • R3 4500 Professional fast (actual price unknown)
  • R1 ???? Flagship (unknown but presumed)

While the R3 is built for speed, it likely won't have features I would expect in an R1 such as a global shutter and quad-pixel AF. An R1 will likely also feature a new large battery system. The question for the R3 is whether or not the "1D-inspired" body would also include the same large battery system. I would expect an R1 to cost well beyond 1DX-series prices.

I leave some question as to whether and/or how the R and RP models might ultimately shake out. With the RP, Canon was clearly showing a desire to have an entry-level full-frame R-series body. The specs on the RP are, accordingly, underwhelming for any enthusiast, much less professional; it's basically an R-series Rebel. The original R now seems only there to fill a price point, like an advanced Rebel. The R6 is a solid entry for enthusiasts, while the R5 and R3 are clearly aimed at the same pro-oriented crowd as the 5DIV and 7DII, albeit the latter now with a full-frame sensor; basically, affordable tools for the professional. Then, of course, the R1 as the ultimate flagship camera featuring the most advanced tech at a premium price.

Note that this line can still accommodate an ultra-high resolution body in the same spirit as the 5Ds/r. (And could still accommodate such even with a rumored medium format.)

Looking at the lineup, it's clear what DOESN'T belong here: an APS-C body. Here are several reasons why:

  1. A successor to the 7DII would feature speed in a tough body. That's what the R3 seems to offer.

No, the R3 is a FF sensor in a fully gripped body at a cost no doubt 3x or higher. The R3 is a top of the line mirrorless for the pro, or enthusiast with deep pockets. It is in no way, shape, or form a successor to the 7D II.

  1. With EVF, a digital "crop-mode" for extra "reach" is not only possible but far more practical. To the user, there would be virtually no difference.
  2. No APS-C-specific R-series lenses. With the potential for crop-mode, the only advantage to an APS-C sensor body is the potential for smaller lenses. Lenses are not merely a product; they are part of an "eco-system" of products. There's no hint of any such lenses in development. And a theoretical APS-C R-series 7DII successor would be the ONLY body to be able to take advantage of them.

Many users of the 7D II are already using FF lenses for sports/birding. I only use EF-S lenses as a matter of convenience (bundled with the body) or to save a few bucks for wide angle.

I always thought the 7DII was a bargain. It was basically a very fast 5DIII/IV made possible by an APS-C sensor but costing significantly less. Those market conditions simply do not exist any longer. Where APS-C sensor were once necessary for cost and speed, their biggest advantage now is for camera and lens size. The R3 looks more like a smaller brother to a potential R1. Thus, it may not necessarily be a direct successor to the 7DII, but it does essentially replace it.

No, a $6,000+ mirrorless does not "essentially" replace a sub-$2k crop sensor body. I'm neither a pro nor a 2-percenter.

As I said, it is not a direct "successor". And there never was a fast full-frame "D3" model for an R3 to succeed. But it does eliminate the need for one from a technical standpoint.

Your biggest complaint is about price point. We were fortunate with the 7DII, which essentially gave us near-1D capability in a 5D-quality body for far less than the cost of either of those two cameras. That cost was possible ONLY because of the cost disadvantage of full-frame sensors at the time. In a world of the sub-$1K ful-frame RP, that disadvantage has clearly evaporated.

Thev only thing the RP has for it over the 7Dii, other than price, is the FF sensor. It lags way behind in every other spec that counts where 7Dii users would want it for - frame rate, durability, af speed, buffer size, weather sealing, etc. There's a very good reason for it to be priced below a high- performance crop body.

And the ability of a full-frame EVF to have a built-in crop mode makes the smaller sensor unnecessary.

Not in the RP it doesn't.

In order to have a 7DII replacement in the R system, the body would need to be on par with the R5 yet offer faster operation for a price nearly $1.5K less than the R5 and just a few hundred less more than the standard (!) EOS R. An APS-C sensor could have gotten you that seven years ago. It doesn't today. Economics simply do not make an APS-C ~$2K "R7" viable any longer. But of course, this is all just speculation.

Yes it is all speculation, we so agree on that.

I never meant to imply that the RP compares with the 7DII or a potential successor in ANY way. I mention it to show that the entire full-frame camera costs much less than the difference in price between the 5DIII/IV and the 7DII, illustrating how insignificant any cost disparity between full-frame and APS-C sensors have become. Even an R6 can do 12 and 20 fps, just like an R5. Expecting an APS-C sensor to enable an "R7" to leapfrog those specs to R3 speeds while costing less simply isn't economically viable, as much as we might long for it to be.

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nolten Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

I agree with you in predicting that the R system will be full frame. I am not so sure about the future of the M system or APS-C from Canon in general. With all the strongly rumored EF and EF-S lens cancellations, Canon has effectively pulled the rug out from under M. I'm not good at predictions, I never would have predicted this, but the signs I see suggest Canon is terminating APS-C. All of the EF and EF-S lenses I use are now cancelled except a few L lenses. There has never been enough Canon support for M lenses for the M to stand on its own. I'm afraid we may end up with the expensive R system for true enthusiasts and pros, and a selection of Sony sensor based Powershots. Sad day.

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MikeJ9116 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,976
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

nolten wrote:

I agree with you in predicting that the R system will be full frame. I am not so sure about the future of the M system or APS-C from Canon in general. With all the strongly rumored EF and EF-S lens cancellations, Canon has effectively pulled the rug out from under M. I'm not good at predictions, I never would have predicted this, but the signs I see suggest Canon is terminating APS-C. All of the EF and EF-S lenses I use are now cancelled except a few L lenses. There has never been enough Canon support for M lenses for the M to stand on its own. I'm afraid we may end up with the expensive R system for true enthusiasts and pros, and a selection of Sony sensor based Powershots. Sad day.

I think there are far too many APS-C DSLR users willing to upgrade to the R system (who also have no interest in the M system) for Canon to ignore. My guess is Canon will ultimately replace APS-C in the EF-S/EF-M mounts with ones in the RF mount. Canon has to do this stealthily for now to wring out all the profits from the M system until they are ready to show their hand. Also, most of the R&D to bring APS-C into the R system has already been done. They have a class leading 32mp sensor that is grossly under utilized that they need to capitalize on.  I don't see Canon bringing this sensor forward to just put it in one DSLR and/or to upgrade the M system.  All the tech for APS-C to come to the R system has already been done with bringing the FF cameras to market. The RP body could easily be the basis for Rebel level cameras in the R system and a tweaked version of the R6 body/internals could easily support a 7D/mid range type of product.

I could be wrong but I think Canon will not pass on the profits to be gained from offering APS-C RF mount cameras and similar RF versions of the EF-S 10-18mm, 18-55mm and 55-250mm kit lenses. Producing these three lenses is not a huge effort for Canon.

OP Michael Thomas Mitchell Forum Pro • Posts: 12,158
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
1

nolten wrote:

I agree with you in predicting that the R system will be full frame. I am not so sure about the future of the M system or APS-C from Canon in general. With all the strongly rumored EF and EF-S lens cancellations, Canon has effectively pulled the rug out from under M. I'm not good at predictions, I never would have predicted this, but the signs I see suggest Canon is terminating APS-C. All of the EF and EF-S lenses I use are now cancelled except a few L lenses. There has never been enough Canon support for M lenses for the M to stand on its own. I'm afraid we may end up with the expensive R system for true enthusiasts and pros, and a selection of Sony sensor based Powershots. Sad day.

My speculations about M are not solid, I admit. Although sales do seem to be strong from some of the data I've seen. We won't see a full-frame M, for certain. And Canon may be content offering only consumer-grade lenses for the format. Like the R, EF lenses are still compatible, although the small size of the M bodies are kind of funny with them. The M6II has some capabilities that both rival and exceed the 90D, but the optional EVF has pretty much been met negatively. And the M50II offered VERY little over its predecessor. That said, consumer models are updated far more frequently and with smaller improvements. Canon will need to bring more to the table with the next M models or risk loosing share to Sony.

Personally, I like the idea of separate M and R systems. They truly are different, with the former clearly appealing to amateurs, vloggers, and travelers who benefit from the smaller size, lighter weight and lower cost that the smaller sensor provides. And the R system now encompasses a WIDE range of models from entry level to pro with a dedicated lens collection which even beginners can grow with; unlike, say, a Rebel kit with a 18-55 kit lens, someone buying into the RP can still use their R kit lens when they advance upwards. Meanwhile, both systems can still use the HUGE available of EF lenses with simple adapters.

From a market standpoint,  Canon is well poised. I think the biggest question is whether the average Joe can be lured away from their ever-improving cell phone cameras.

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nolten Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...

You may be right, and I hope you are, especially about the stealth part.  Canon has announced development of the R3,  no equivalent announcements about anything related to APS-C.  Canon Rumors, not Canon, has announced the cancellation of the 55-250 STM lens.  To me, this is the seminal lens.  Without this lens the EF-S and even EF-M mount cameras become just point and shoots.  The cancellation list is pretty impressive and supports my theory.  No announcements or rumors about M's future or replacement.  I hope I'm wrong.  My M6II, 90D, and 5D4 work together as a team sharing important lenses but serving different purposes.  There is no cohesive kit on the horizon.

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Distinctly Average Senior Member • Posts: 1,177
Re: Canon rumored R7. I'm calling it...
2

Michael Thomas Mitchell wrote:

nolten wrote:

I agree with you in predicting that the R system will be full frame. I am not so sure about the future of the M system or APS-C from Canon in general. With all the strongly rumored EF and EF-S lens cancellations, Canon has effectively pulled the rug out from under M. I'm not good at predictions, I never would have predicted this, but the signs I see suggest Canon is terminating APS-C. All of the EF and EF-S lenses I use are now cancelled except a few L lenses. There has never been enough Canon support for M lenses for the M to stand on its own. I'm afraid we may end up with the expensive R system for true enthusiasts and pros, and a selection of Sony sensor based Powershots. Sad day.

My speculations about M are not solid, I admit. Although sales do seem to be strong from some of the data I've seen. We won't see a full-frame M, for certain. And Canon may be content offering only consumer-grade lenses for the format. Like the R, EF lenses are still compatible, although the small size of the M bodies are kind of funny with them. The M6II has some capabilities that both rival and exceed the 90D, but the optional EVF has pretty much been met negatively. And the M50II offered VERY little over its predecessor. That said, consumer models are updated far more frequently and with smaller improvements. Canon will need to bring more to the table with the next M models or risk loosing share to Sony.

Personally, I like the idea of separate M and R systems. They truly are different, with the former clearly appealing to amateurs, vloggers, and travelers who benefit from the smaller size, lighter weight and lower cost that the smaller sensor provides. And the R system now encompasses a WIDE range of models from entry level to pro with a dedicated lens collection which even beginners can grow with; unlike, say, a Rebel kit with a 18-55 kit lens, someone buying into the RP can still use their R kit lens when they advance upwards. Meanwhile, both systems can still use the HUGE available of EF lenses with simple adapters.

From a market standpoint, Canon is well poised. I think the biggest question is whether the average Joe can be lured away from their ever-improving cell phone cameras.

There are only 8 lenses in the M lineup and a TC. Nothing new has come for a while on the lens front. EF and EF-S appears to be dying faster than expected. I would guess M will be slowly killed off.

As for an RF crop, I am quite sure we will see one or more. Competition have them and from a development point of view it should be relatively easy given the design of the RF system. There is also a huge potential customer base for such a camera, something Canon cannot ignore.

Currently we do not know the price or resolution of the R3. If resolution is low in favour of speed, like the 1DX series, then it will be aimed at those who use big glass. It already looks like it will use the 1DX battery. This makes it look very expensive. If you want a crop resolution to match that of the 7D2 then you need a 80MP FF, to match the pixels on subject of the 90D then you need a shed load more. That will not be cheap both in cost but power, processing, memory etc so I doubt that will happen in this generation.

No point speculating though. I certainly hope an R7 will arrive soon. Even if it is priced the same as the R6 it will sell well as it is a different beast aimed at a different user base.

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Myer Veteran Member • Posts: 3,268
So What Will it Take
1

A lot of this technical talk is over my head.

So my question is, what will it take to get an updated 7D Mark II, updated to current technology.

Or maybe the question is simpler with, what will it take to get a 7D Mark II updated with 90D technology.

And mirrorless, of course.

What would be missing?

What would be improved upon?

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