Moving from 60mm macro to 30mm Macro lenses? Maybe?

I currently use an oly 60mm macro on a Olympus EPL10 ( I have this combo) for lens for underwater macro. I am typically diving Beach dives in Southern California, USA, aka can have lots of particulates. I have noticed I have to keep quite a bit of water between my lens and the subject to fit the subject in the frame, for macro I am going after Nudibranch (Nudi) like the Spanish Shawl, Opalescent, and Hopkins Rose (see below for size of animals) . I am wondering if I should look into the Olympus 30mm macro to be able to get closer to the subject? Do you think I should keep diving my 60mm this summer and see if I can get it to work? I'm open to ideas.

There isn't much difference between the Oly 30mm and the Pana 30mm. I will most likely need to factor in the cost of a new port or spacer ring into the total package costs.

Pana is f2.8, longer and heavier $298

Oly is f3.5, shorter working min focus distance $224

For context the 3 nudibranch that I hunt the most are:

Animal - Size

Spanish Shawl Nudi - up to 2.75in (75mm) long

Opalescent Nudi - up to 3in (80mm) long

Hopkins Rose Nudi - up to 1in (25.4mm) long

Dann-Oh wrote:

I currently use an oly 60mm macro on a Olympus EPL10 ( I have this combo) for lens for underwater macro. I am typically diving Beach dives in Southern California, USA, aka can have lots of particulates. I have noticed I have to keep quite a bit of water between my lens and the subject to fit the subject in the frame, for macro I am going after Nudibranch (Nudi) like the Spanish Shawl, Opalescent, and Hopkins Rose (see below for size of animals) . I am wondering if I should look into the Olympus 30mm macro to be able to get closer to the subject? Do you think I should keep diving my 60mm this summer and see if I can get it to work? I'm open to ideas.

There isn't much difference between the Oly 30mm and the Pana 30mm. I will most likely need to factor in the cost of a new port or spacer ring into the total package costs.

Pana is f2.8, longer and heavier $298

Oly is f3.5, shorter working min focus distance $224

For context the 3 nudibranch that I hunt the most are:

Animal - Size

Spanish Shawl Nudi - up to 2.75in (75mm) long

Opalescent Nudi - up to 3in (80mm) long

Hopkins Rose Nudi - up to 1in (25.4mm) long

Hi Dann-Oh,

I have the Zuiko 60mm and Pana 45mm macros, but not the Zuiko 30mm macro. I use them on EM5II and EM1II. Both lenses are outstandingly good, but my favorite lens is clearly the 60mm, sometimes with CMC-1 diopter (I like to go deep into macro)...

On EM5II S-AF is a bit slow and does sometimes not work with the 60mm, while 45mm is better. With EM1II I can do C-AF with both lenses well...

In case the working distance is too long with 60mm, the 45mm is better (when lot of particles). 30mm will be even closer (too close for my taste when it comes to real 1:1 macro). For bigger objects (75mm and 80mm as you state) no 1:1 is required - here I prefer the Zuiko 12-40mm behind Zen DP170, it gives extremeley sharp results and I like to zoom out as much as possible (12mm is already WA) to show as much environment/background as possible, when the situation/animal allows...

Wolfgang

Architeuthis wrote:

Dann-Oh wrote:

I currently use an oly 60mm macro on a Olympus EPL10 ( I have this combo) for lens for underwater macro. I am typically diving Beach dives in Southern California, USA, aka can have lots of particulates. I have noticed I have to keep quite a bit of water between my lens and the subject to fit the subject in the frame, for macro I am going after Nudibranch (Nudi) like the Spanish Shawl, Opalescent, and Hopkins Rose (see below for size of animals) . I am wondering if I should look into the Olympus 30mm macro to be able to get closer to the subject? Do you think I should keep diving my 60mm this summer and see if I can get it to work? I'm open to ideas.

There isn't much difference between the Oly 30mm and the Pana 30mm. I will most likely need to factor in the cost of a new port or spacer ring into the total package costs.

Pana is f2.8, longer and heavier $298

Oly is f3.5, shorter working min focus distance $224

For context the 3 nudibranch that I hunt the most are:

Animal - Size

Spanish Shawl Nudi - up to 2.75in (75mm) long

Opalescent Nudi - up to 3in (80mm) long

Hopkins Rose Nudi - up to 1in (25.4mm) long

Hi Dann-Oh,

I have the Zuiko 60mm and Pana 45mm macros, but not the Zuiko 30mm macro. I use them on EM5II and EM1II. Both lenses are outstandingly good, but my favorite lens is clearly the 60mm, sometimes with CMC-1 diopter (I like to go deep into macro)...

On EM5II S-AF is a bit slow and does sometimes not work with the 60mm, while 45mm is better. With EM1II I can do C-AF with both lenses well...

In case the working distance is too long with 60mm, the 45mm is better (when lot of particles). 30mm will be even closer (too close for my taste when it comes to real 1:1 macro). For bigger objects (75mm and 80mm as you state) no 1:1 is required - here I prefer the Zuiko 12-40mm behind Zen DP170, it gives extremeley sharp results and I like to zoom out as much as possible (12mm is already WA) to show as much environment/background as possible, when the situation/animal allows...

Wolfgang

Wolfgang,

Would you be able to share any image samples of the Pana 45mm and or the 12-40? Unfortunately, my housing does not have a zoom gear option so Im stuck with fixed focal lengths. I have the Pana 8mm fisheye and 60mm macro but nothing in between. Okay I lied my housing only has one gear on it, I have to choose between a focus gear and a zoom gear. Which means; I could use the 14-42 kit lens with a zoom gear in the standard port if I wanted something in between 8mm fisheye and 60mm macro. I also have the Zuiko 12-45 F4 I could use but I'm not too sure how well it performs underwater.

I have been eyeing the Zuiko 12-40 F2.8 to compliment my 40-150 F2.8 for top side photography. I wonder if ill need a port adapter for any of these decisions?  Time to call Backscatter :-).

Dann-Oh wrote:

Wolfgang,

Would you be able to share any image samples of the Pana 45mm and or the 12-40? Unfortunately, my housing does not have a zoom gear option so Im stuck with fixed focal lengths. I have the Pana 8mm fisheye and 60mm macro but nothing in between. Okay I lied my housing only has one gear on it, I have to choose between a focus gear and a zoom gear. Which means; I could use the 14-42 kit lens with a zoom gear in the standard port if I wanted something in between 8mm fisheye and 60mm macro. I also have the Zuiko 12-45 F4 I could use but I'm not too sure how well it performs underwater.

I have been eyeing the Zuiko 12-40 F2.8 to compliment my 40-150 F2.8 for top side photography. I wonder if ill need a port adapter for any of these decisions? Time to call Backscatter :-).

I fear I cannot help much about the ports, as I have a Nauticam system that requires different ports compared to your system, but it may serve as an example:

For the two macro lenses (Pana 45mm and Oly 60mm) one can use the same port, "Macro Port 45", the 60mm requires an additional 20mm extension ring. Also the two 30mm macrolenses can be used with the 45 Macroport.

The 12-40mm Pro requires a domeport for best IQ, I have the Zen DP170-N120 and an additional 60mm N85-N120 adapter. With this combination I can also use the Pana 7-14mm WA and with the domport plus another 34.7mm N85-N120 adapter, I can use the Zuiko 8mm fisheye. With the same DP170-N120 port and 34.7mm adapter I can house the Canon 8-15mm fisheye with 1x Metabones Canon-EF to MFT adapter (with additional 35mm extension) - that is, at present, my favorite WA lens.

=> The bottomline (and what may help you in lens and port selection) is that I recommend first to think carefully about the selection of port(s) to buy: If, for instance; I would have bought the Macroport 65, I could only house the Oly 60mm and would need to buy the Macroport 45 extra for the Pana 45mm and/or the 30mm macros (in case I wanted them to use) => more money spent and more lugagge to carry. Similar with the N120 version of the Zen DP170 domeport: several N85 versions with build in extensions exist for the three lenses above, but no single one would house all three lenses. With just two ports, one planport (Macroport 45) and one domport (Zen DP170-N120), I can house all my lenses....

I believe that AF with your EPL10 will be substantially better with the 45mm compared to the 60mm. In addition the closer working distance will improve IQ in not so clear waters...

Here come some sample photos for the Panasonic 45mm macrolens. I really prefer this forum to Wetpixel for showing pictures, since one can upload in full resolution:

The 12-40mm Pro with domeport samples come with the next post...

Here come the samples with the 12-40mm Pro lens behind the Zen DP170. I use his combination mostly at night, but I always regret that I am not using it more often during the day. It is just too tempting to go for either real macro or for real WA...:-D

I think the 12-40mm lens, to some extend, overlaps with the 30mm macros. Of course one cannot go for 1:1 with the 12-40 lens, but for my taste the working distance with the 30mm macros would be too close when 1:1 is required. I remind that with all the macros, 60mm, 45mm and 30mm, you can go for the same 1:1 scale, but the working distance becomes smaller and smaller...

When further away and at larger scales (I think this would be how I would mostly use a 30mm macro), I regard the 12-40mm to be better: one can also go quite close, but has the choice to zoom out to moderte WA. My tactic is always just to zoom in a little as is required (e.g. not to scare an animal) in order to have the least water between object and domeport...

Wolfgang

Nice shots!  (And nice processing as well, come to think of it.)

kelpdiver wrote:

There is not a lot of 4/3 macro on anything but the 60. The 45 certainly has use, but is $$.

I think for cameras that do not have PDAF (as EM5II; presumably also the EPL10), the Pana 45mm macro is the better solution, because AF works better compared to the 60mm (AF is similar between the 60mm and 45mm on PDAF cameras). The 45mm is more pricey, but also has IS build in in addition. In not so clear waters I still prefer it to the Zuiko 60mm. Under optimal conditions, however, the Zuiko 60mm is my favorite lens. I also have the impression the Zuiko 60mm is a tick sharper compared to the 45mm...

Here is an example photo that was taken with the Zuiko 60mm. Not an example for the real macro stuff (THIS is the domain of the 60mm lens), but for what is technically possible for fishportrait at relatively long object distance (the clear waters in Egypt helped) - although the 60mm should not be used for such big objects at this long distances. The 12-40mm Pro behind domeport (also the 30mm macros behind flatport) would give better IQ because of shorter object distance (I would even prefer the Canon 8-15mm fisheye @15mm for such a shot): A titan trigger came close and quickly disappered again. I had the chance for a single photo only and since I had arranged the rig and (manual) flashes for macro and there was no time for readjustments, the photo was greatly underexposed. I had to correct exposure in postprocessing, more than usually is good for IQ. Not ideal, but I still like the photo:

Wolfgang

Architeuthis wrote:

Dann-Oh wrote:

Wolfgang,

Would you be able to share any image samples of the Pana 45mm and or the 12-40? Unfortunately, my housing does not have a zoom gear option so Im stuck with fixed focal lengths. I have the Pana 8mm fisheye and 60mm macro but nothing in between. Okay I lied my housing only has one gear on it, I have to choose between a focus gear and a zoom gear. Which means; I could use the 14-42 kit lens with a zoom gear in the standard port if I wanted something in between 8mm fisheye and 60mm macro. I also have the Zuiko 12-45 F4 I could use but I'm not too sure how well it performs underwater.

I have been eyeing the Zuiko 12-40 F2.8 to compliment my 40-150 F2.8 for top side photography. I wonder if ill need a port adapter for any of these decisions? Time to call Backscatter :-).

I fear I cannot help much about the ports, as I have a Nauticam system that requires different ports compared to your system, but it may serve as an example:

For the two macro lenses (Pana 45mm and Oly 60mm) one can use the same port, "Macro Port 45", the 60mm requires an additional 20mm extension ring. Also the two 30mm macrolenses can be used with the 45 Macroport.

The 12-40mm Pro requires a domeport for best IQ, I have the Zen DP170-N120 and an additional 60mm N85-N120 adapter. With this combination I can also use the Pana 7-14mm WA and with the domport plus another 34.7mm N85-N120 adapter, I can use the Zuiko 8mm fisheye. With the same DP170-N120 port and 34.7mm adapter I can house the Canon 8-15mm fisheye with 1x Metabones Canon-EF to MFT adapter (with additional 35mm extension) - that is, at present, my favorite WA lens.

=> The bottomline (and what may help you in lens and port selection) is that I recommend first to think carefully about the selection of port(s) to buy: If, for instance; I would have bought the Macroport 65, I could only house the Oly 60mm and would need to buy the Macroport 45 extra for the Pana 45mm and/or the 30mm macros (in case I wanted them to use) => more money spent and more lugagge to carry. Similar with the N120 version of the Zen DP170 domeport: several N85 versions with build in extensions exist for the three lenses above, but no single one would house all three lenses. With just two ports, one planport (Macroport 45) and one domport (Zen DP170-N120), I can house all my lenses....

I believe that AF with your EPL10 will be substantially better with the 45mm compared to the 60mm. In addition the closer working distance will improve IQ in not so clear waters...

Here come some sample photos for the Panasonic 45mm macrolens. I really prefer this forum to Wetpixel for showing pictures, since one can upload in full resolution:

The 12-40mm Pro with domeport samples come with the next post...

The best thing that Backscatter did for me was to inform me about port extension rings.  I was thinking of buying the dedicated 60mm port when I bought my housing but they told me that I could get a 30mm extension ring for a fraction of the price as the dedicated port.  So if I need to get a different size port I will go ahead and just get a different size extension ring.

The guys at backscatter didn't recommend the 12-40 lens when I was talking with them but your images defiantly show that the lens is capable.

kelpdiver wrote:

does your camera/housing allow for back focus?

using the gear for focus becomes less essential with BF as you can just rock the camera for the precise focus. His suggestion for the 12-40 is interesting as it gives you more versatility.

There is not a lot of 4/3 macro on anything but the 60. The 45 certainly has use, but is $$.

For the issues you're having - is it backscatter from the strobes, or visible matter? How are you aiming the strobes? At short range, you may want to aim them backwards at the camera and rely on the edge lighting.

Its been a while since I was in the water using my camera, my last few days of diving have been without a camera to try to get comfortable with my drysuit. I didn't need to add a camera to a new suit and introduce extra task loading. From what I remember the debris is a little bit of everything, My strobe was in a modified rabbit ear setup, meaning it was above the subject pointing towards the floor but more than likely the light cone was centered on the nudis instead of using the edge light.

I wonder if cutting the camera distance in half could lead to you introducing your own debris in frame as you deal with the surge.

Im not looking to cut my distance in half but maybe  move from 12" to 8" away from the nudis.

If you can dive under a pier, that is typically calmer water. In Monterey, Del Monte beach's pier is one of the best spots for a lot of nudis.

I am going to try to get out to dive next week, If conditions allow for a camera I will bring it and share some photos with you guys.

Architeuthis wrote:

I think for cameras that do not have PDAF (as EM5II; presumably also the EPL10), the Pana 45mm macro is the better solution, because AF works better compared to the 60mm (AF is similar between the 60mm and 45mm on PDAF cameras).

Yes the EPL-10 does allow for back button focus, its the only focus setup I use. It also has contrast detect focus (not PDAF).

Wolfgang

kelpdiver wrote:

Architeuthis - if it were my wife, she'd want to use a 200mm lens for the triggerfish. She doesn't trust the teeth on any of them, never mind the vindictive Titans.

I was warned about Titan Triggerfish the first time I dove in Moorea.  Since I had just seen a story about a Japanese diver attacked by one, I took the warning seriously.  The fish had bit a hole right in the middle of his big dome.

My dive group spent some time watching one bite off chunks of coral, crunch it up to get at whatever, and spit out the crumbs.

PHXAZCRAIG wrote:

kelpdiver wrote:

Architeuthis - if it were my wife, she'd want to use a 200mm lens for the triggerfish. She doesn't trust the teeth on any of them, never mind the vindictive Titans.

I was warned about Titan Triggerfish the first time I dove in Moorea. Since I had just seen a story about a Japanese diver attacked by one, I took the warning seriously. The fish had bit a hole right in the middle of his big dome.

My dive group spent some time watching one bite off chunks of coral, crunch it up to get at whatever, and spit out the crumbs.

Titan triggers are not generally hostile. Only when they breed, they bravely protect their nest (usually in flat sandy areas) against invaders, including scubadiver. One has to strictly avoid to come near their nest. Usually accidents happen when divers, who do not see the nest, dive few meters over the nest. Triggers can be persistent attackers and follow the invader, even when they already give heel money ...

The one in the photo was definitely not breeding, just strawling around the reef. It came close only once, appeared from some cover and presumably did not see me first, and quickly disappeared again...

Wolfgang