XP-15000 thoughts...

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Keith Cooper
Keith Cooper Senior Member • Posts: 2,758
XP-15000 thoughts...
9

I mentioned a while ago that Epson had lent me an XP-15000 to have a try with. Well, I've written up a review (includes some videos as well, for those averse to long text

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-xp-15000-printer-review/

A quite nice printer to use - As expected, it performed best on very glossy papers and some art papers, with poorest results on baryta style papers.

B&W performance is mixed, with ABW giving tolerable B&W on some papers, but definitely needing experimentation depending on viewing lighting.

Actually some nice results for colour images and perhaps a good printer for someone wanting something for the office as well as getting into doing their own printing.

Sure, it's not quite up to what I'd want to use for my wider printing - but I'd still happily use some glossy 13x19 prints to hand out at a presentation.

It's still here, so if anyone has any specific questions...

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bye for now
Keith Cooper

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Gesture Veteran Member • Posts: 8,304
Re: XP-15000 thoughts...

Thanks, Keith.  Jon Cone was high on this printer when it came out.  Don't know the current price but was affordable when it first came out.

I personally prefer Canon for dye ink printing.

RobBobW Contributing Member • Posts: 933
Re: XP-15000 thoughts...

Thanks Keith,

When you say that some experimenting is required to get good B&W prints, what does that mean?  Do you mean putting a slight warm tome to the file so it prints neutral black instead of with a blue tint?

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Keith Cooper
OP Keith Cooper Senior Member • Posts: 2,758
Getting good B&W - adjustments and experiments
2

RobBobW wrote:

Thanks Keith,

When you say that some experimenting is required to get good B&W prints, what does that mean?

The problems with B&W on a printer like this cover the linearity, the neutrality of tone and illuminant metamerism.

With the ABW mode the linearity seems fairly good - but this varies with different papers

With ABW, the tone seems relatively good, but does vary with paper choice.

With any B&W printing the darker tones are much more reflective at deep red wavelengths giving a sensitivity to the spectral distribution of the viewing lighting - this is similar with any paper.

The overall results are not predictable, so you need to experiment with different papers to see what works best for B&W.

The results are such that I've not got a paper I can say is best - add to that the differences in paper types/availability in different regions and to get the best results you need to experiment.

See some of the graphs in the actual review.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-xp-15000-printer-review/

Do you mean putting a slight warm tome to the file so it prints neutral black instead of with a blue tint?

The one thing I can say though is that the ABW mode outperformed most profiles. This means that adjustments need to be applied to the ABW settings - adding tints to colour files and printing with ICC profiles seems like a great way to use up paper and ink

I've addressed this in an article I wrote a while ago

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printing-greyscale-images-and-removing-unwanted-colour-tints/

The article is using a Canon printer, but the principles are exactly the same for the 15000

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bye for now
Keith Cooper

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NAwlins Contrarian Veteran Member • Posts: 5,934
ABW outperforming profiles

The one thing I can say though is that the ABW mode outperformed most profiles. This means that adjustments need to be applied to the ABW settings - adding tints to colour files and printing with ICC profiles seems like a great way to use up paper and ink

One might wonder what "most profiles" does and does not include. I suspect that at least many profiles are built with standard matrices of 9x9x9 to 12x12x12 for R, G, and B, i.e., no weighting of more patches near the neutrals much less express attempts to achieve neutrality. Among the maybe-better options for those wanting to print B&W are specialized ICC profiles for B&W (at least some of the X-Rite software has a mode to build them, and I think some of the Datacolor software offers an 'enhanced B&W' option for profile-building) and some of the folks at LuLa have built patch sets weighted to more patches near the neutral areas.

I'd be very curious for one of you experts to do some tests of B&W photo printing e.g.

(1) regular matrix profiles (maybe around 1728 patches?) vs.

(2) pro-neutral-weighted matrix-type profiles (with about the same patch count as the previous type) vs.

(3) X-Rite B&W profiles vs.

(4) Datacolor B&W profiles vs.

(5) Epson ABW vs.

(6) IIRC some of the newer Canons have a mode similar to Epson's ABW.

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Gesture Veteran Member • Posts: 8,304
Re: Getting good B&W - adjustments and experiments

Just why I used to love Duotone/Tritone/Quadtone in Photoshop!

We have come a long way, especially with the pigment printers.

I remember seeing B&W at an art fair done Epson 3880.  Stunning.  Ansel Adams or Wynn Bullock would approve.

Keith Cooper
OP Keith Cooper Senior Member • Posts: 2,758
Re: ABW outperforming profiles
2

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

The one thing I can say though is that the ABW mode outperformed most profiles. This means that adjustments need to be applied to the ABW settings - adding tints to colour files and printing with ICC profiles seems like a great way to use up paper and ink

One might wonder what "most profiles" does and does not include.

In this instance Epson ones and i1Profiler ones using some 2-3000 patches (what fits on one sheet of A3 or A3+ for reading with an iSis)

I suspect that at least many profiles are built with standard matrices of 9x9x9 to 12x12x12 for R, G, and B, i.e., no weighting of more patches near the neutrals much less express attempts to achieve neutrality. Among the maybe-better options for those wanting to print B&W are specialized ICC profiles for B&W (at least some of the X-Rite software has a mode to build them,

in name only IMHO. The version in i1Studio I looked at when it first came out were not something I would ever have a use for.

and I think some of the Datacolor software offers an 'enhanced B&W' option for profile-building) and some of the folks at LuLa have built patch sets weighted to more patches near the neutral areas.

I'd be very curious for one of you experts to do some tests of B&W photo printing e.g.

Me too - this crosses well beyond my patience levels

(1) regular matrix profiles (maybe around 1728 patches?) vs.

(2) pro-neutral-weighted matrix-type profiles (with about the same patch count as the previous type) vs.

(3) X-Rite B&W profiles vs.

(4) Datacolor B&W profiles vs.

(5) Epson ABW vs.

(6) IIRC some of the newer Canons have a mode similar to Epson's ABW.

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Keith Cooper

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NAwlins Contrarian Veteran Member • Posts: 5,934
Re: ABW outperforming profiles

I suspect that at least many profiles are built with standard matrices of 9x9x9 to 12x12x12 for R, G, and B, i.e., no weighting of more patches near the neutrals much less express attempts to achieve neutrality. Among the maybe-better options for those wanting to print B&W are specialized ICC profiles for B&W (at least some of the X-Rite software has a mode to build them,

in name only IMHO. The version in i1Studio I looked at when it first came out were not something I would ever have a use for.

For some reason I have this vague impression / recollection that somewhere between version 1.1 or 1.2 and version 1.5 of the i1Studio software, there was a functionality / quality upgrade in this area. It was also interesting to me that although the set of 50 initial patches is exactly the same for building the standard color-oriented profiles and the B&W-oriented profiles, the second, custom-calculated set of patches is only 50 for standard color-oriented profiles but 100 for B&W-oriented profiles. And these 100 patches are mostly not neutral, but by visual impression, on the whole significantly nearer neutral than the color second set.

What's the measurable quality of the resulting B&W profiles? I have no idea. But I use them happily enough for my very modest needs and standards. The whole idea of 'smarter' profiling and specialized / customized patch sets and how to choose them interests me. I'm not sure how many people realize that even the huge 8000-patch sets are typically just a 20x20x20 matrix for a function that accepts at least 256x256x256 inputs. Especially as desired profile quality increases, 'brute force' profiling is not going to be the best answer unless the printer's behavior is very linear.

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Roy Sletcher
Roy Sletcher Senior Member • Posts: 1,338
Re: ABW outperforming profiles
1

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

I suspect that at least many profiles are built with standard matrices of 9x9x9 to 12x12x12 for R, G, and B, i.e., no weighting of more patches near the neutrals much less express attempts to achieve neutrality. Among the maybe-better options for those wanting to print B&W are specialized ICC profiles for B&W (at least some of the X-Rite software has a mode to build them,

in name only IMHO. The version in i1Studio I looked at when it first came out were not something I would ever have a use for.

For some reason I have this vague impression / recollection that somewhere between version 1.1 or 1.2 and version 1.5 of the i1Studio software, there was a functionality / quality upgrade in this area. It was also interesting to me that although the set of 50 initial patches is exactly the same for building the standard color-oriented profiles and the B&W-oriented profiles, the second, custom-calculated set of patches is only 50 for standard color-oriented profiles but 100 for B&W-oriented profiles. And these 100 patches are mostly not neutral, but by visual impression, on the whole significantly nearer neutral than the color second set.

What's the measurable quality of the resulting B&W profiles? I have no idea. But I use them happily enough for my very modest needs and standards. The whole idea of 'smarter' profiling and specialized / customized patch sets and how to choose them interests me. I'm not sure how many people realize that even the huge 8000-patch sets are typically just a 20x20x20 matrix for a function that accepts at least 256x256x256 inputs. Especially as desired profile quality increases, 'brute force' profiling is not going to be the best answer unless the printer's behavior is very linear.

Your recollection is correct.

On my I1 studio the black and white setting outputs 100 patches for the second iteration spread over two sheets of colour patches.

-rs-

RobBobW Contributing Member • Posts: 933
Re: Getting good B&W - adjustments and experiments

Keith Cooper wrote:

RobBobW wrote:

Thanks Keith,

When you say that some experimenting is required to get good B&W prints, what does that mean?

The problems with B&W on a printer like this cover the linearity, the neutrality of tone and illuminant metamerism.

With the ABW mode the linearity seems fairly good - but this varies with different papers

With ABW, the tone seems relatively good, but does vary with paper choice.

With any B&W printing the darker tones are much more reflective at deep red wavelengths giving a sensitivity to the spectral distribution of the viewing lighting - this is similar with any paper.

The overall results are not predictable, so you need to experiment with different papers to see what works best for B&W.

The results are such that I've not got a paper I can say is best - add to that the differences in paper types/availability in different regions and to get the best results you need to experiment.

See some of the graphs in the actual review.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-xp-15000-printer-review/

Do you mean putting a slight warm tome to the file so it prints neutral black instead of with a blue tint?

The one thing I can say though is that the ABW mode outperformed most profiles. This means that adjustments need to be applied to the ABW settings - adding tints to colour files and printing with ICC profiles seems like a great way to use up paper and ink

I've addressed this in an article I wrote a while ago

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printing-greyscale-images-and-removing-unwanted-colour-tints/

The article is using a Canon printer, but the principles are exactly the same for the 15000

Thank you for all the helpful information.  Have ordered an XP-15000 and it should arrive by the end of the month.  Now to dispose of my expired trusty R1900 for parts...

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RobBobW Contributing Member • Posts: 933
Re: Getting good B&W - adjustments and experiments

RobBobW wrote:

Keith Cooper wrote:

RobBobW wrote:

Thanks Keith,

When you say that some experimenting is required to get good B&W prints, what does that mean?

The problems with B&W on a printer like this cover the linearity, the neutrality of tone and illuminant metamerism.

With the ABW mode the linearity seems fairly good - but this varies with different papers

With ABW, the tone seems relatively good, but does vary with paper choice.

With any B&W printing the darker tones are much more reflective at deep red wavelengths giving a sensitivity to the spectral distribution of the viewing lighting - this is similar with any paper.

The overall results are not predictable, so you need to experiment with different papers to see what works best for B&W.

The results are such that I've not got a paper I can say is best - add to that the differences in paper types/availability in different regions and to get the best results you need to experiment.

See some of the graphs in the actual review.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-xp-15000-printer-review/

Do you mean putting a slight warm tome to the file so it prints neutral black instead of with a blue tint?

The one thing I can say though is that the ABW mode outperformed most profiles. This means that adjustments need to be applied to the ABW settings - adding tints to colour files and printing with ICC profiles seems like a great way to use up paper and ink

I've addressed this in an article I wrote a while ago

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printing-greyscale-images-and-removing-unwanted-colour-tints/

The article is using a Canon printer, but the principles are exactly the same for the 15000

Thank you for all the helpful information. Have ordered an XP-15000 and it should arrive by the end of the month. Now to dispose of my expired trusty R1900 for parts...

So, 2 months and 11 days after placing my order, my new Epson XP15000 arrived today.  It is all set up.  Now I have to take it through its paces to see how it performs.  It is significantly smaller than my old R1900 (which did find a new home).

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Dave_Good Contributing Member • Posts: 853
Re: Getting good B&W - adjustments and experiments

Good news. I too have been waiting a couple of months for mine to arrive, hopefully my order will be filled soon as well. It was supposed to arrive several weeks ago but there was a delay from the manufacturer. This is to replace my old 3880.

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Gesture Veteran Member • Posts: 8,304
Re: Getting good B&W - adjustments and experiments

If one shows up on Epson Clearance for $250, I'm thinking of getting one and trying with pigment ink.

Dave_Good Contributing Member • Posts: 853
Re: Getting good B&W - adjustments and experiments

Dave_Good wrote:

Good news. I too have been waiting a couple of months for mine to arrive, hopefully my order will be filled soon as well. It was supposed to arrive several weeks ago but there was a delay from the manufacturer. This is to replace my old 3880.

Still waiting.........June 5th now (1-2 weeks). I should probably order a full set of inks in the meantime just in case they too are back-ordered.

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oasisaromatics New Member • Posts: 3
Re: XP-15000 thoughts...

I just bought two of these printers and having some issues with the rear feed. I take it that you are only supposed to load one sheet at a time from the rear. But using normal A3 size paper from the rear seems impossible, as you need to force the paper so hard into the feeder that it gets crumpled. I can tape a thick piece of paper behind the thin sheet and it will sort of work, but 3/4 times it just feeds the entire sheet through and then claims it is out of paper. I've gotten a few pages to work from the rear but it seems almost entirely hit or miss. What am I doing wrong.

Gesture Veteran Member • Posts: 8,304
Re: XP-15000 thoughts...

Not sure. In olden times, we would put a piece of cardboard beyond the single piece of paper that we intended to print on. That would help catch the printing sheet.

I wish Epson would spend 1/100th the effort it puts into imaging into mechanical paper feed.  There are times when bond paper will catch just fine, but not a thicker paper.  That's why I like the older printers that allowed one to pre-park the paper before printing

I'm guessing that the XP-15000 does at least have a center paper track.

Good luck.

Dave_Good Contributing Member • Posts: 853
Re: XP-15000 thoughts...

That's not encouraging, it sounds like it is the same with both of your printers. I used to have difficulties some times loading the 3880 from the rear feed but eventually learned the right pressure to apply. At least you received yours, possibly next I will see mine next week.

Edit: Now it is scheduled to arrive July 2.:-|

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oasisaromatics New Member • Posts: 3
Re: XP-15000 thoughts...

I doubt this will help most people, but using AcroRIP 10 made it MUCH easier to load paper from the rear. It's the only program that I can actually see an option to specifically tell the printer to use the rear feed instead of autodetecting (which is either complete trash, or I just suck).  And now I can print on rolls without the printer trying to unravel the entire thing. I'm honestly still baffled how the rear feed is supposed to work under normal operation, and frankly I have little interest in wasting more time trying to figure it out.

Dave_Good Contributing Member • Posts: 853
Re: XP-15000 thoughts...

I print through Qimage Ultimate, and when/if I get this printer I will report back as to it's ease of use in this regard.

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nm shutterbug New Member • Posts: 1
Re: XP-15000 thoughts...

I own xp 15000 (Epson). The output tray dislodged and I cannot find any reason why or help for safely putting it back. Any ideas?

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