Nikon global shutter - coming soon?

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plumberdp69 Regular Member • Posts: 422
Nikon global shutter - coming soon?
1

Did not know about global shutter till I got my Z6ii and later the inherent problems with line by line mode.

Read that Nikon has a patent on global shutter some years ago but nothing in production yet.

A Nikon global shutter camera on the horizon?

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spec68 Regular Member • Posts: 189
Re: Nikon global shutter - coming soon?

It’s coming to pro cameras soon. Maybe today - Sony has a big announcement at 10 regarding a new Alpha camera, likely A9 III. Canon is said to be working on a new pro mirrorless that will sit above the R5. And, of course Nikon with the rumored Z9 (not specifically global) but it will have to keep pace w/ competition if the competition releases global shutter bodies.

dj_paige
dj_paige Senior Member • Posts: 2,412
Re: Nikon global shutter - coming soon?
1

plumberdp69 wrote:

Did not know about global shutter till I got my Z6ii and later the inherent problems with line by line mode.

Read that Nikon has a patent on global shutter some years ago but nothing in production yet.

A Nikon global shutter camera on the horizon?

For those of us trying to keep up with the latest technology, please explain what a global shutter is (or provide a link).

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Paige Miller

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OP plumberdp69 Regular Member • Posts: 422
Re: Nikon global shutter - coming soon?
1

dj_paige wrote:

plumberdp69 wrote:

Did not know about global shutter till I got my Z6ii and later the inherent problems with line by line mode.

Read that Nikon has a patent on global shutter some years ago but nothing in production yet.

A Nikon global shutter camera on the horizon?

For those of us trying to keep up with the latest technology, please explain what a global shutter is (or provide a link).

https://www.arducam.com/products/camera-breakout-board/global-shutter-camera/

+ many others on the web.

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Hugh Barstead Regular Member • Posts: 124
Re: Nikon global shutter - coming soon?
1

Global CMOS shutter will remove the mechanical shutter in the same way Mirrorless removed the mirror box.

Electronic stabilization will remove the need for IBIS.

Next, AI will remove the need for any controls.

Finally adaptive fresnel technology will replace your glass with a thin flat panel.

The camera of the future might resemble a business card. Hopefully we’ll still be allowed to point it at things.

beatboxa Veteran Member • Posts: 7,722
Re: Nikon global shutter - coming soon?
5

spec68 wrote:

It’s coming to pro cameras soon. Maybe today - Sony has a big announcement at 10 regarding a new Alpha camera, likely A9 III. Canon is said to be working on a new pro mirrorless that will sit above the R5. And, of course Nikon with the rumored Z9 (not specifically global) but it will have to keep pace w/ competition if the competition releases global shutter bodies.

Not any time soon for full-frame sensors that are in a 4-digit price range (USD). The new $6500 Sony announcement (a1) is still a rolling shutter, as was the a9.

If you want a global shutter soon (within the next few years), it'll be in a smaller-sensor camera first.  The typical rollout for sensor technology follows the following pattern (in order):

  • First, smaller-than-1"
  • Then, (a few years later), ~1" 
  • Then (a few years later) high-end "halo" full-frame
  • Finally, (a few years later) the various low-cost models (APS-C, lower-end full-frame, etc.)

This was also the pattern followed for BSI, stacked sensors, etc., including the stacked sensors found in Sony's latest cameras, which have been in smaller-than-1" cameras for around a decade now.

beatboxa Veteran Member • Posts: 7,722
Re: Nikon global shutter - coming soon?

beatboxa wrote:

spec68 wrote:

It’s coming to pro cameras soon. Maybe today - Sony has a big announcement at 10 regarding a new Alpha camera, likely A9 III. Canon is said to be working on a new pro mirrorless that will sit above the R5. And, of course Nikon with the rumored Z9 (not specifically global) but it will have to keep pace w/ competition if the competition releases global shutter bodies.

Not any time soon for full-frame sensors that are in a 4-digit price range (USD). The new $6500 Sony announcement (a1) is still a rolling shutter, as was the a9.

If you want a global shutter soon (within the next few years), it'll be in a smaller-sensor camera first. The typical rollout for sensor technology follows the following pattern (in order):

  • First, smaller-than-1"
  • Then, (a few years later), ~1"
  • Then (a few years later) high-end "halo" full-frame
  • Finally, (a few years later) the various low-cost models (APS-C, lower-end full-frame, etc.)

This was also the pattern followed for BSI, stacked sensors, etc., including the stacked sensors found in Sony's latest cameras, which have been in smaller-than-1" cameras for around a decade now.

I'll separate the facts & speculation (above ^) from my opinions.

But this is why I believe Nikon needs a serious smaller-format camera (and no, APS-C is still too big for this because a global APS-C camera would cost thousands and be out of reach for most people).

Canon has serious cameras in the first two categories, as does Sony.
But Nikon does not. They've shuttered the Nikon 1 and the Nikon DL. At present, there is no series from Nikon that focuses on rapid iteration via rapid improvement of sensor technology in smaller sensors (as Nikon previously had). Not a good strategy for high-tech products that rely on combinations of real-time processing, sampling, scaling, and large volumes of data.

Here's a rule of thumb:  look for when the first phones start to get a global shutter camera.  Then add around 5-10 years.  That's when we'll see them in $3000 full-frame cameras.

24Peter
24Peter Veteran Member • Posts: 4,635
Re: Nikon global shutter - coming soon?

beatboxa wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

spec68 wrote:

It’s coming to pro cameras soon. Maybe today - Sony has a big announcement at 10 regarding a new Alpha camera, likely A9 III. Canon is said to be working on a new pro mirrorless that will sit above the R5. And, of course Nikon with the rumored Z9 (not specifically global) but it will have to keep pace w/ competition if the competition releases global shutter bodies.

Not any time soon for full-frame sensors that are in a 4-digit price range (USD). The new $6500 Sony announcement (a1) is still a rolling shutter, as was the a9.

If you want a global shutter soon (within the next few years), it'll be in a smaller-sensor camera first. The typical rollout for sensor technology follows the following pattern (in order):

  • First, smaller-than-1"
  • Then, (a few years later), ~1"
  • Then (a few years later) high-end "halo" full-frame
  • Finally, (a few years later) the various low-cost models (APS-C, lower-end full-frame, etc.)

This was also the pattern followed for BSI, stacked sensors, etc., including the stacked sensors found in Sony's latest cameras, which have been in smaller-than-1" cameras for around a decade now.

I'll separate the facts & speculation (above ^) from my opinions.

But this is why I believe Nikon needs a serious smaller-format camera (and no, APS-C is still too big for this because a global APS-C camera would cost thousands and be out of reach for most people).

Canon has serious cameras in the first two categories, as does Sony.
But Nikon does not. They've shuttered the Nikon 1 and the Nikon DL. At present, there is no series from Nikon that focuses on rapid iteration via rapid improvement of sensor technology in smaller sensors (as Nikon previously had). Not a good strategy for high-tech products that rely on combinations of real-time processing, sampling, scaling, and large volumes of data.

Here's a rule of thumb: look for when the first phones start to get a global shutter camera. Then add around 5-10 years. That's when we'll see them in $3000 full-frame cameras.

Hi beatboxa! Appreciate your informed post!

What are your thoughts on the Red Komodo's global shutter?

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beatboxa Veteran Member • Posts: 7,722
Re: Nikon global shutter - coming soon?

24Peter wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

spec68 wrote:

It’s coming to pro cameras soon. Maybe today - Sony has a big announcement at 10 regarding a new Alpha camera, likely A9 III. Canon is said to be working on a new pro mirrorless that will sit above the R5. And, of course Nikon with the rumored Z9 (not specifically global) but it will have to keep pace w/ competition if the competition releases global shutter bodies.

Not any time soon for full-frame sensors that are in a 4-digit price range (USD). The new $6500 Sony announcement (a1) is still a rolling shutter, as was the a9.

If you want a global shutter soon (within the next few years), it'll be in a smaller-sensor camera first. The typical rollout for sensor technology follows the following pattern (in order):

  • First, smaller-than-1"
  • Then, (a few years later), ~1"
  • Then (a few years later) high-end "halo" full-frame
  • Finally, (a few years later) the various low-cost models (APS-C, lower-end full-frame, etc.)

This was also the pattern followed for BSI, stacked sensors, etc., including the stacked sensors found in Sony's latest cameras, which have been in smaller-than-1" cameras for around a decade now.

I'll separate the facts & speculation (above ^) from my opinions.

But this is why I believe Nikon needs a serious smaller-format camera (and no, APS-C is still too big for this because a global APS-C camera would cost thousands and be out of reach for most people).

Canon has serious cameras in the first two categories, as does Sony.
But Nikon does not. They've shuttered the Nikon 1 and the Nikon DL. At present, there is no series from Nikon that focuses on rapid iteration via rapid improvement of sensor technology in smaller sensors (as Nikon previously had). Not a good strategy for high-tech products that rely on combinations of real-time processing, sampling, scaling, and large volumes of data.

Here's a rule of thumb: look for when the first phones start to get a global shutter camera. Then add around 5-10 years. That's when we'll see them in $3000 full-frame cameras.

Hi beatboxa! Appreciate your informed post!

What are your thoughts on the Red Komodo's global shutter?

Thanks!

I generally like Red cameras, I don't know much about the Komodo specifically. Just from reading specs though, I think it follows the pattern in that it is an expensive pro-level camera, with a smaller-than-full-frame sensor.

To summarize the Komodo's sensor specs for convenience:

(For reference, this is basically a sensor in a box with a lens mount)

  • $6000
  • ...(before required accessories, which easily cost $thousands)
  • Pro video camera (actually considered a "mid-level" cine camera)
  • Super-35 (~APS-C)
  • Actual sensor size: 27.03 x 14.26mm
  • (=1.7x vertical crop)
  • 19MP resolution (6k)
  • 17:9 native aspect ratio
  • 40FPS max for a full-sensor readout
  • A bit of lag. Not bad, but not lagless
  • Release date: June 2020

Just with basic math, a full-frame sensor would cost at least double the price of an APS-C (though with the geometric constraints of a silicon wafer and production yields, it will be much more than double the price). And then there's the requirements, as a stills-camera would need high refresh rate + low lag for the OVF, autofocus, tracking, (probably more resolution), etc. And that's before things like an EVF, LCD, ability to write images to a card, etc.

So I think a full-frame version of a camera with similar tech ends up easily exceeding a 4-digit price-tag.

This always goes back to my earlier comments over the past few years about benefits of reducing sensor size & resolution in order to improve performance and to expand use cases. Note that the Red's sensor is only slightly larger than my proposed "Nikon 2" format (which you may recall is approx. 21.3x12mm (16:9 aspect ratio), and the Komodo is also double the resolution of one of the products I described (which was 4k-native, as opposed to 6k native).

Strange how the Red Komodo specs seem to be good enough for serious & professional filmmakers but might not be good enough for a lot of forum commenters...

Varuas Contributing Member • Posts: 728
Re: Nikon global shutter - coming soon?
1

Hugh Barstead wrote:

Global CMOS shutter will remove the mechanical shutter in the same way Mirrorless removed the mirror box.

Electronic stabilization will remove the need for IBIS.

Next, AI will remove the need for any controls.

Finally adaptive fresnel technology will replace your glass with a thin flat panel.

The camera of the future might resemble a business card. Hopefully we’ll still be allowed to point it at things.

After a decade or those business card sized cameras, future truly arrives when there is no need for a camera, but let AI recreate the scenes by directly stimulating your brains to give you the senses of seeing the scene/portraits.

Obviously, we would then be arguing how the Sony Sensory tech is really not representing reality good enough and ways to improve. I think by then we would simply be upgrading our brains instead.

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Lettermanian
Lettermanian Senior Member • Posts: 1,792
Re: Nikon global shutter - coming soon?

dj_paige wrote:

plumberdp69 wrote:

Did not know about global shutter till I got my Z6ii and later the inherent problems with line by line mode.

Read that Nikon has a patent on global shutter some years ago but nothing in production yet.

A Nikon global shutter camera on the horizon?

For those of us trying to keep up with the latest technology, please explain what a global shutter is (or provide a link).

Slo-mo guys video on rolling and global shutter

Demonstrates a rolling shutter very well on a dslr (same idea on mirrorless, just without that weird flappy thing in front of the shutter). He talks about what a global shutter is at about the 4-minute mark. Basically a rolling shutter exposes the sensor in parts (from top to bottom) over time, whereas a global shutter exposes the whole sensor at once (no top to bottom travel) over time.

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beatboxa Veteran Member • Posts: 7,722
Another visual...
1

Lettermanian wrote:

dj_paige wrote:

plumberdp69 wrote:

Did not know about global shutter till I got my Z6ii and later the inherent problems with line by line mode.

Read that Nikon has a patent on global shutter some years ago but nothing in production yet.

A Nikon global shutter camera on the horizon?

For those of us trying to keep up with the latest technology, please explain what a global shutter is (or provide a link).

Slo-mo guys video on rolling and global shutter

Demonstrates a rolling shutter very well on a dslr (same idea on mirrorless, just without that weird flappy thing in front of the shutter). He talks about what a global shutter is at about the 4-minute mark. Basically a rolling shutter exposes the sensor in parts (from top to bottom) over time, whereas a global shutter exposes the whole sensor at once (no top to bottom travel) over time.

Another way to think about it:

Rolling shutter:

Global shutter:

Lettermanian
Lettermanian Senior Member • Posts: 1,792
Re: Another visual...
1
  1. beatboxa wrote:

Lettermanian wrote:

dj_paige wrote:

plumberdp69 wrote:

Did not know about global shutter till I got my Z6ii and later the inherent problems with line by line mode.

Read that Nikon has a patent on global shutter some years ago but nothing in production yet.

A Nikon global shutter camera on the horizon?

For those of us trying to keep up with the latest technology, please explain what a global shutter is (or provide a link).

Slo-mo guys video on rolling and global shutter

Demonstrates a rolling shutter very well on a dslr (same idea on mirrorless, just without that weird flappy thing in front of the shutter). He talks about what a global shutter is at about the 4-minute mark. Basically a rolling shutter exposes the sensor in parts (from top to bottom) over time, whereas a global shutter exposes the whole sensor at once (no top to bottom travel) over time.

Another way to think about it:

Rolling shutter:

Global shutter:

I almost thought I was looking at a dot matrix printer for a second there. Come to think of it, a camera sensor is pretty much a dot matrix IMprinter, isn't it.

K, I'm going to bed now.

🤓

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