Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
petrvv Junior Member • Posts: 29
Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

I've been using DxO PhotoLab 4 (Windows 10) to process RAW files and export to jpg. Histogram shown in DxO is different from the JPG opened in Photoshop CS5.

Histogram in DxO (blacks are not clipped):

When I export the image to JPG and open it in PS, it shows the following histogram with blacks clipped (it shows Luminance as in DxO):

It doesn't look any darker in PS compared to DxO and even the color picker shows very similar RGB values both in DxO and PS. Both DxO and PS are set to sRGB. If I convert the RAW file in ACR, the histograms in ACR and PS look the same. ACDSee shows the same clipped histogram as PS. It seems the problem is somewhere in DxO.

What could be the reason?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 28,112
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab
4

petrvv wrote:

I've been using DxO PhotoLab 4 (Windows 10) to process RAW files and export to jpg. Histogram shown in DxO is different from the JPG opened in Photoshop CS5.

Histogram in DxO (blacks are not clipped):

When I export the image to JPG and open it in PS, it shows the following histogram with blacks clipped (it shows Luminance as in DxO):

It doesn't look any darker in PS compared to DxO and even the color picker shows very similar RGB values both in DxO and PS. Both DxO and PS are set to sRGB. If I convert the RAW file in ACR, the histograms in ACR and PS look the same. ACDSee shows the same clipped histogram as PS. It seems the problem is somewhere in DxO.

What could be the reason?

Thanks for any suggestions.

First thing would be to press the triangular sign on PS histogram.

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OP petrvv Junior Member • Posts: 29
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

Iliah Borg wrote:

First thing would be to press the triangular sign on PS histogram.

Thanks for the tip! Unfortunatelly this doesn't help and the clipping is still there.

I found that when I export to jpg and display the jpg in DxO, the shadows are clipped too.

Histogram of RAW in DxO:

Histogram of exported JPG in DxO with clipped shadows:

And this is the export dialog (ICC set to Original):

The jpg doesn't look darker than the RAW file, at least at first sight and when randomly checking RGB values of dark areas with the color picker. Both viewed in DxO.

Any ideas why this happens?

Kaj E Veteran Member • Posts: 9,848
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab
2

petrvv wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

First thing would be to press the triangular sign on PS histogram.

Thanks for the tip! Unfortunatelly this doesn't help and the clipping is still there.

I found that when I export to jpg and display the jpg in DxO, the shadows are clipped too.

Histogram of RAW in DxO:

Histogram of exported JPG in DxO with clipped shadows:

And this is the export dialog (ICC set to Original):

The jpg doesn't look darker than the RAW file, at least at first sight and when randomly checking RGB values of dark areas with the color picker. Both viewed in DxO.

Any ideas why this happens?

I do not use DxO PL. Tried it once but discarded it because of this glitch. When you export an image from RAW it does what it calls something like "realistic colors" Which among other actions includes clipping blacks and also frequently changing the rest of the tonal distribution.. This does not allow you to leave some room for soft proofing and editing for specific output media.

I hate software that does automatic changes that I do not have control over. I want to decide what my images should look like.

-- hide signature --

Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member #13
It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 28,112
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

petrvv wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

First thing would be to press the triangular sign on PS histogram.

Thanks for the tip! Unfortunatelly this doesn't help and the clipping is still there.

I found that when I export to jpg and display the jpg in DxO, the shadows are clipped too.

Histogram of RAW in DxO:

This isn't a histogram of raw, it changes when you apply adjustments. It's a histogram of rendition.

Histogram of exported JPG in DxO with clipped shadows:

What happens if you export TIFF?

And this is the export dialog (ICC set to Original):

The jpg doesn't look darker than the RAW file, at least at first sight and when randomly checking RGB values of dark areas with the color picker. Both viewed in DxO.

Any ideas why this happens?

-- hide signature --
IanYorke Veteran Member • Posts: 4,435
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

Kaj E wrote:

petrvv wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

First thing would be to press the triangular sign on PS histogram.

Thanks for the tip! Unfortunatelly this doesn't help and the clipping is still there.

I found that when I export to jpg and display the jpg in DxO, the shadows are clipped too.

Histogram of RAW in DxO:

Histogram of exported JPG in DxO with clipped shadows:

And this is the export dialog (ICC set to Original):

The jpg doesn't look darker than the RAW file, at least at first sight and when randomly checking RGB values of dark areas with the color picker. Both viewed in DxO.

Any ideas why this happens?

I do not use DxO PL. Tried it once but discarded it because of this glitch. When you export an image from RAW it does what it calls something like "realistic colors" Which among other actions includes clipping blacks and also frequently changing the rest of the tonal distribution.. This does not allow you to leave some room for soft proofing and editing for specific output media.

I hate software that does automatic changes that I do not have control over. I want to decide what my images should look like.

Interesting. What version of DXO-Photolab was this and were you assigning an ICC profile during export? I normally use C1 but don't see this behaviour with DXO and also where are "realistic colours" in DXO?

Ian

OP petrvv Junior Member • Posts: 29
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

What happens if you export TIFF?

16-bit TIFF shows the same clipping as JPG:

OP petrvv Junior Member • Posts: 29
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

I do not use DxO PL. Tried it once but discarded it because of this glitch. When you export an image from RAW it does what it calls something like "realistic colors" Which among other actions includes clipping blacks and also frequently changing the rest of the tonal distribution.. This does not allow you to leave some room for soft proofing and editing for specific output media.

When I switch between RAW and JPG in DxO, I can't see any difference between the two images. Only the histograms seem to change. I can be wrong, but I tried it in a dark room and monitor brightness up to see differences in the shadows.

OP petrvv Junior Member • Posts: 29
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

Does anybody use DxO here? Could you please try the same test as I did and report the results?

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 28,112
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab
1

petrvv wrote:

What happens if you export TIFF?

16-bit TIFF shows the same clipping as JPG:

DxO support?

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S Castle
S Castle Senior Member • Posts: 1,147
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

Iliah Borg wrote:

petrvv wrote:

What happens if you export TIFF?

16-bit TIFF shows the same clipping as JPG:

DxO support?

Yeah. I think the best place for this query is their support forum . Not that it will be any more help, probably, but it might result in a reply from a DxO engineer.

I'd be curious if the histogram changes with jpg output quality as well. (Mine is normally 90%.)

-- hide signature --

Shane

Kaj E Veteran Member • Posts: 9,848
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

IanYorke wrote:

Kaj E wrote:

petrvv wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

First thing would be to press the triangular sign on PS histogram.

Thanks for the tip! Unfortunatelly this doesn't help and the clipping is still there.

I found that when I export to jpg and display the jpg in DxO, the shadows are clipped too.

Histogram of RAW in DxO:

Histogram of exported JPG in DxO with clipped shadows:

And this is the export dialog (ICC set to Original):

The jpg doesn't look darker than the RAW file, at least at first sight and when randomly checking RGB values of dark areas with the color picker. Both viewed in DxO.

Any ideas why this happens?

I do not use DxO PL. Tried it once but discarded it because of this glitch. When you export an image from RAW it does what it calls something like "realistic colors" Which among other actions includes clipping blacks and also frequently changing the rest of the tonal distribution.. This does not allow you to leave some room for soft proofing and editing for specific output media.

I hate software that does automatic changes that I do not have control over. I want to decide what my images should look like.

Interesting. What version of DXO-Photolab was this and were you assigning an ICC profile during export? I normally use C1 but don't see this behaviour with DXO and also where are "realistic colours" in DXO?

Ian

Installed my version of DxO PL to be able to answer your question. It is DxO PL 2.

When I edit a Raw image it photoshop and export it to disk it seems to do the "realistic colors" thing. Compared to file>Export for ICC profile... and select "export as realistic colorrendering" it gives the same result. It seems the images are exported in Adobe RGB and there is no indication of what color space the raw and the corresponding histogram is displayed in (it is not a Raw histogram, which you get if you export as linear Raw).

In the preferences I could not find any place where I could set the working color space or the color space for the exported file.

DxO seems to be aimed at people who want the editing to be simplified "automatic" and not be bothered by color management.

-- hide signature --

Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member #13
It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt

CrisL Contributing Member • Posts: 887
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

petrvv wrote:

What happens if you export TIFF?

16-bit TIFF shows the same clipping as JPG:

I exported a TIFF from DXO and found the histograms pretty identical inside DXO lab 4 and camera raw !

 CrisL's gear list:CrisL's gear list
Nikon Coolpix 950 Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ70 Nikon Coolpix P900 Panasonic FZ80/FZ82 Nikon Coolpix P1000 +5 more
IanYorke Veteran Member • Posts: 4,435
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

Kaj E wrote:

Interesting. What version of DXO-Photolab was this and were you assigning an ICC profile during export? I normally use C1 but don't see this behaviour with DXO and also where are "realistic colours" in DXO?

Ian

Installed my version of DxO PL to be able to answer your question. It is DxO PL 2.

When I edit a Raw image it photoshop and export it to disk it seems to do the "realistic colors" thing. Compared to file>Export for ICC profile... and select "export as realistic colorrendering" it gives the same result. It seems the images are exported in Adobe RGB and there is no indication of what color space the raw and the corresponding histogram is displayed in (it is not a Raw histogram, which you get if you export as linear Raw).

In the preferences I could not find any place where I could set the working color space or the color space for the exported file.

DxO seems to be aimed at people who want the editing to be simplified "automatic" and not be bothered by color management.

Sorry, I am even more confused now

Are you using DXO-Photolab as the options you mention I am not aware of?

Here is the export dialogue box for DXO Photolab, you can select the relevant ICC profile:

Ian

Ernie Misner
Ernie Misner Veteran Member • Posts: 7,443
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab
2

petrvv wrote:

I've been using DxO PhotoLab 4 (Windows 10) to process RAW files and export to jpg. Histogram shown in DxO is different from the JPG opened in Photoshop CS5.

Histogram in DxO (blacks are not clipped):

When I export the image to JPG and open it in PS, it shows the following histogram with blacks clipped (it shows Luminance as in DxO):

It doesn't look any darker in PS compared to DxO and even the color picker shows very similar RGB values both in DxO and PS. Both DxO and PS are set to sRGB.

I thought DxO worked in AdobeRGB, no? If so, and then it is getting converted to sRGB in PS that would explain the clipped blacks.

If I convert the RAW file in ACR, the histograms in ACR and PS look the same. ACDSee shows the same clipped histogram as PS. It seems the problem is somewhere in DxO.

What could be the reason?

Thanks for any suggestions.

-- hide signature --

Ernie Misner
http://www.flickr.com/photos/erniemisner/
The first digital image was made in the late '60's for NASA, as a way to record images of Mars. Each "square" was represented by three numbers, corresponding to the red, green, and blue hue on a scale of 0 to 255. This eliminated the need to ship film back to Earth.

 Ernie Misner's gear list:Ernie Misner's gear list
Nikon Z6 Nikon AF-S 70-200mm F2.8E FL ED VR Nikon Z 24-70mm F4 Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED +6 more
Kaj E Veteran Member • Posts: 9,848
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

IanYorke wrote:

Kaj E wrote:

Interesting. What version of DXO-Photolab was this and were you assigning an ICC profile during export? I normally use C1 but don't see this behaviour with DXO and also where are "realistic colours" in DXO?

Ian

Installed my version of DxO PL to be able to answer your question. It is DxO PL 2.

When I edit a Raw image it photoshop and export it to disk it seems to do the "realistic colors" thing. Compared to file>Export for ICC profile... and select "export as realistic colorrendering" it gives the same result. It seems the images are exported in Adobe RGB and there is no indication of what color space the raw and the corresponding histogram is displayed in (it is not a Raw histogram, which you get if you export as linear Raw).

In the preferences I could not find any place where I could set the working color space or the color space for the exported file.

DxO seems to be aimed at people who want the editing to be simplified "automatic" and not be bothered by color management.

Sorry, I am even more confused now

Are you using DXO-Photolab as the options you mention I am not aware of?

Here is the export dialogue box for DXO Photolab, you can select the relevant ICC profile:

Ian

Ok, where do you set the working color space?

-- hide signature --

Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member #13
It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt

OP petrvv Junior Member • Posts: 29
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab
1

Ernie Misner wrote:

I thought DxO worked in AdobeRGB, no? If so, and then it is getting converted to sRGB in PS that would explain the clipped blacks.

Bingo!

When I export it with the AdobeRGB profile, the clipping of shadows disappears:

As my Canon R6 is set to sRGB, exporting from DxO using Original ICC profile means it is displayed in AdobeRGB in Dxo, but converted to sRGB when exporting to JPG.

What should be my workflow when I want sRGB jpg at the end? DxO works in AdobeRGB and this can't be changed. Should I set the camera to AdobeRGB as well? Then only the final export would be converted to sRGB, although with the clipping of shadows (that I don't like...)

Now I realize that I don't know if sRGB/AdobeRGB applies also to RAW files or only JPGs from the camera? I shoot in RAW.

IanYorke Veteran Member • Posts: 4,435
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

Kaj E wrote:

IanYorke wrote:

Kaj E wrote:

Interesting. What version of DXO-Photolab was this and were you assigning an ICC profile during export? I normally use C1 but don't see this behaviour with DXO and also where are "realistic colours" in DXO?

Ian

Installed my version of DxO PL to be able to answer your question. It is DxO PL 2.

When I edit a Raw image it photoshop and export it to disk it seems to do the "realistic colors" thing. Compared to file>Export for ICC profile... and select "export as realistic colorrendering" it gives the same result. It seems the images are exported in Adobe RGB and there is no indication of what color space the raw and the corresponding histogram is displayed in (it is not a Raw histogram, which you get if you export as linear Raw).

In the preferences I could not find any place where I could set the working color space or the color space for the exported file.

DxO seems to be aimed at people who want the editing to be simplified "automatic" and not be bothered by color management.

Sorry, I am even more confused now

Are you using DXO-Photolab as the options you mention I am not aware of?

Here is the export dialogue box for DXO Photolab, you can select the relevant ICC profile:

Ian

Ok, where do you set the working color space?

Each raw converter program uses its own internal colour space. I don't set a colour space in Light Room or Capture One they each do their own thing. Colour space is set on export.

Are you thinking of the default colour rendering used when a raw file is first opened, where sometimes you can choose "landscape", Portrait", linear etc? This controls the initial saturation and tone curve that is applied to the image as it opens.

Ian

Kaj E Veteran Member • Posts: 9,848
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

IanYorke wrote:

Kaj E wrote:

IanYorke wrote:

Kaj E wrote:

Interesting. What version of DXO-Photolab was this and were you assigning an ICC profile during export? I normally use C1 but don't see this behaviour with DXO and also where are "realistic colours" in DXO?

Ian

Installed my version of DxO PL to be able to answer your question. It is DxO PL 2.

When I edit a Raw image it photoshop and export it to disk it seems to do the "realistic colors" thing. Compared to file>Export for ICC profile... and select "export as realistic colorrendering" it gives the same result. It seems the images are exported in Adobe RGB and there is no indication of what color space the raw and the corresponding histogram is displayed in (it is not a Raw histogram, which you get if you export as linear Raw).

In the preferences I could not find any place where I could set the working color space or the color space for the exported file.

DxO seems to be aimed at people who want the editing to be simplified "automatic" and not be bothered by color management.

Sorry, I am even more confused now

Are you using DXO-Photolab as the options you mention I am not aware of?

Here is the export dialogue box for DXO Photolab, you can select the relevant ICC profile:

Ian

Ok, where do you set the working color space?

Each raw converter program uses its own internal colour space. I don't set a colour space in Light Room or Capture One they each do their own thing. Colour space is set on export.

When editing I need to know in  what color space the histogram is rendered. This can be set for instance in Photoshop already for Adobe Camera Raw.  This is essential for knowing what you are editing and that the color space is wide enough for your intended purpose.

Naturally you set your working space also for any non-raw image in Photoshop proper.  When you open a non-raw file in an other color space you are asked if you want to convert it to your working space or maintain the embedded ICC-profile.

Are you thinking of the default colour rendering used when a raw file is first opened, where sometimes you can choose "landscape", Portrait", linear etc?

No.

Ian

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Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member #13
It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt

Ernie Misner
Ernie Misner Veteran Member • Posts: 7,443
Re: Histogram issue in DxO Photolab

petrvv wrote:

Ernie Misner wrote:

I thought DxO worked in AdobeRGB, no? If so, and then it is getting converted to sRGB in PS that would explain the clipped blacks.

Bingo!

Yaaa, we can be some help once in a while!

When I export it with the AdobeRGB profile, the clipping of shadows disappears:

As my Canon R6 is set to sRGB,

Using the raw file it doesn't matter what you set your camera to.

exporting from DxO using Original ICC profile means it is displayed in AdobeRGB in Dxo, but converted to sRGB when exporting to JPG.

You can tell DxO what color space you wish to export in. I would choose AdobeRGB if you are going to do further editing in PS. And make sure your PS preferences are set to honor the imbedded profile.

What should be my workflow when I want sRGB jpg at the end? DxO works in AdobeRGB and this can't be changed. Should I set the camera to AdobeRGB as well?

No, that does not matter. I just leave my camera in sRGB all the time when shooting raw files.

Then only the final export would be converted to sRGB, although with the clipping of shadows (that I don't like...)

If you watch the image rather than the histogram, the image looks the same even though the histogram shows clipped blacks when you convert. I can't explain it but I quit worrying about the histogram when converting from AdobeRGB to sRGB.  That freaked me out at first too.

I keep my image in AdobeRGB (and full resolution) as long as possible in the workflow. That gives you the maximum amount of color to work with. At the very end I convert to sRGB in PS, then reduce the file size to 2048px (long way) for viewing on social media. A that point the color and contrast might need to be tweaked. And lastly I choose Save As, rename the file slightly, and choose jpeg for the file type.

Note that I would also save a high resolution tiff before converting to sRGB and low res, in case I want to re-visit the file for further editing. Or you can save a .psd file with all the layers intact.

Actually I use Lr rather than DxO so I work in ProPhoto color all the way until the end since Lr works in ProPhoto rather than AdobeRGB.

Now I realize that I don't know if sRGB/AdobeRGB applies also to RAW files or only JPGs from the camera? I shoot in RAW.

-- hide signature --

Ernie Misner
http://www.flickr.com/photos/erniemisner/
The first digital image was made in the late '60's for NASA, as a way to record images of Mars. Each "square" was represented by three numbers, corresponding to the red, green, and blue hue on a scale of 0 to 255. This eliminated the need to ship film back to Earth.

 Ernie Misner's gear list:Ernie Misner's gear list
Nikon Z6 Nikon AF-S 70-200mm F2.8E FL ED VR Nikon Z 24-70mm F4 Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED +6 more
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