Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
HiddenRealms New Member • Posts: 15
Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters
6

This is my first post after years of just reading here. It is by far the best source of information on the internet for my project.

I do IR and fullspectrum photography with the Sigma SD1 and in particular trying to emulate the style of Kodak EIR or Aerochrome as simply as possible, without post processing and with repeatability for all.

Maybe there are other users here who are also interested in this. I'd like to share with you what I've found out, and through discussion maybe find out more optimizations.

There are two main methods to get the Aerochroms look with cameras that have Foveon sensors:

1. full spectrum, no filter, custom white balance.
2. Green filter (X1) with around 4100 K

Both methods are ok, but lack (for me) important features of the Aerochrome film: Dark sky, dark water, the general IR reflection effects (hard to pin down to anything) as well as details like yellow-green skin tones and tail lights of cars, red cars appearing yellow etc....

My question: are there ways to get closer to Aerochrome through filters and SPP options and without post-processing?

Especially last summer I experimented extensively with my SD1. I experimented with different filters, X1 (green), as well as K2 (yellow) and 25A (red) and got interesting results using presets and adjustments in SPP. However, I am not a technical specialist and come to my results via trial-and-error.

Further below are some photos and how I made them. I found two things crucial: the Color mode Foveon Classic Blue and the Color Fringe correction in SPP. With the help of these, I came up with the following images. All achieved in SPP with RAW files, without further optimizations.

They are better than just the X1 and/or the full spectrum method (in my opinion), but they still lack some important properties like the changing of colors (red taillights or red-painted things turning yellow for example) or the dark sky (only achievable with red filters) and general coloration. For example, the red filter turns vegetation to red, but there are no nuances or pink/magenta tone like with Aerochrome.

So I ask myself:
What can still be done here? Maybe getting better CWB could be crucial? But how to get it with a red filter on the lens? Maybe a IR cut-off filter could help, a inefficient hot mirror like the Schott KG3?

Has anyone any ideas? Do you think the method with color fringe correction is good?

I hope everything is understandable. I'm happy to answer any questions or give more specifications etc...

Some pictures and the specs

Green and yellow filter:

Hoya Green x1 + Hoya yellow k2... : White balance: Neon... Color mode: Vivid... SPP: Color matrix: G 0.0/A 0.0/M 8.0/B 33.0 Color fringe correction: 0.8/0.8 — 0.5/0.5

Hoya Green x1 + Hoya yellow k2... : White balance: Neon... Color mode: Vivid... SPP: Color matrix: G 0.0/A 0.0/M 8.0/B 33.0 Color fringe correction: 0.8/0.8 — 0.5/0.5

Red filter and polarizer:

Hoya red 25A... White balance: Manual (Custom white balance on white card without filter on – just full spectrum) Color mode: FOV Classic Blue... SPP: Color matrix: G 0.0/A 0.0/M 22.0/B 86.0, Color fringe correction: 0.9/0.4 — 0.5/0.5

Hoya red 25A... White balance: Manual (Custom white balance on white card without filter on – just full spectrum) Color mode: FOV Classic Blue... SPP: Color matrix: G 0.0/A 0.0/M 22.0/B 86.0, Color fringe correction: 0.9/0.4 — 0.5/0.5

Leica X1 Sigma SD1
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MOD rick decker Forum Pro • Posts: 17,461
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

Welcome to the forum...Sorry it took so long to approve you and your first post.

Rick

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Roger Senior Member • Posts: 2,661
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

Welcome to the forum. Very interesting photos very nice.

Have fun and be Safe

Enjoy

Roger J.

D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 28,396
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters
1

My experience is limited to exposing a couple of rolls of the Kodak film back in the 1960s, so I can't help much. But looking at the diagram tells me that the filter needs to block blue and pass IR. It would appear yellow to the eye, but various yellow filters may or may not pass IR. The Kodak Wratten Filters book will help, but you may need an interference filter.

Can the Foveon distinguish between red and IR, as the film does ?

Once you have three colours for green, red and IR, you can swap channels around in software to get a pleasing result.

Film with no filter:

Film with orange filter:

Have fun !

Don Cox

 D Cox's gear list:D Cox's gear list
Sigma fp
xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 19,078
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

One of our Members - G Radford - is pretty good with the AeroChrome look.

Not much into it myself but here's some reds done in post (RawTherapee 5.0) from a full-spectrum shot w/ no filters:

A white paper here:

http://kronometric.org/phot/ir/SD1M%20Kodak%20IR%20film%20simulation.pdf

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EEvan
EEvan Regular Member • Posts: 257
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

HiddenRealms wrote:

This is my first post after years of just reading here. It is by far the best source of information on the internet for my project.

I do IR and fullspectrum photography with the Sigma SD1 and in particular trying to emulate the style of Kodak EIR or Aerochrome as simply as possible, without post processing and with repeatability for all.

Maybe there are other users here who are also interested in this. I'd like to share with you what I've found out, and through discussion maybe find out more optimizations.

There are two main methods to get the Aerochroms look with cameras that have Foveon sensors:

1. full spectrum, no filter, custom white balance.
2. Green filter (X1) with around 4100 K

Both methods are ok, but lack (for me) important features of the Aerochrome film: Dark sky, dark water, the general IR reflection effects (hard to pin down to anything) as well as details like yellow-green skin tones and tail lights of cars, red cars appearing yellow etc....

My question: are there ways to get closer to Aerochrome through filters and SPP options and without post-processing?

Especially last summer I experimented extensively with my SD1. I experimented with different filters, X1 (green), as well as K2 (yellow) and 25A (red) and got interesting results using presets and adjustments in SPP. However, I am not a technical specialist and come to my results via trial-and-error.

Further below are some photos and how I made them. I found two things crucial: the Color mode Foveon Classic Blue and the Color Fringe correction in SPP. With the help of these, I came up with the following images. All achieved in SPP with RAW files, without further optimizations.

They are better than just the X1 and/or the full spectrum method (in my opinion), but they still lack some important properties like the changing of colors (red taillights or red-painted things turning yellow for example) or the dark sky (only achievable with red filters) and general coloration. For example, the red filter turns vegetation to red, but there are no nuances or pink/magenta tone like with Aerochrome.

So I ask myself:
What can still be done here? Maybe getting better CWB could be crucial? But how to get it with a red filter on the lens? Maybe a IR cut-off filter could help, a inefficient hot mirror like the Schott KG3?

Has anyone any ideas? Do you think the method with color fringe correction is good?

I hope everything is understandable. I'm happy to answer any questions or give more specifications etc...

Some pictures and the specs

Green and yellow filter:

Hoya Green x1 + Hoya yellow k2... : White balance: Neon... Color mode: Vivid... SPP: Color matrix: G 0.0/A 0.0/M 8.0/B 33.0 Color fringe correction: 0.8/0.8 — 0.5/0.5

Hoya Green x1 + Hoya yellow k2... : White balance: Neon... Color mode: Vivid... SPP: Color matrix: G 0.0/A 0.0/M 8.0/B 33.0 Color fringe correction: 0.8/0.8 — 0.5/0.5

Red filter and polarizer:

Hoya red 25A... White balance: Manual (Custom white balance on white card without filter on – just full spectrum) Color mode: FOV Classic Blue... SPP: Color matrix: G 0.0/A 0.0/M 22.0/B 86.0, Color fringe correction: 0.9/0.4 — 0.5/0.5

Hoya red 25A... White balance: Manual (Custom white balance on white card without filter on – just full spectrum) Color mode: FOV Classic Blue... SPP: Color matrix: G 0.0/A 0.0/M 22.0/B 86.0, Color fringe correction: 0.9/0.4 — 0.5/0.5

I've found setting the WB to Teal and Orange for the Quattro gives the best OOC look with the Green FIlter.

In Camera Settings

You can get it a little more of the Purple or Pink tone in the reds as you found with FOV Blue

But I've found my biggest issue is simply consistency.

I've tried The X1 filter, a NDVI filter, No filter, and an Orange Filter (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64382231)

And depending how much sunlight there is, and if I accidentally over expose, the effect can be dramatically inconsistent.

So I have switched to shooting in DNG and used Capture One to simply force the colors I'm after:

xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 19,078
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

xpatUSA wrote:

A white paper here:

http://kronometric.org/phot/ir/SD1M%20Kodak%20IR%20film%20simulation.pdf

Some time back, I bought a Hoya 77mm yellow-green X0 filter to play with. Wasn't impressed:

SPP review image - no color adjustments:

Yukky sky ...

Reading the paper again, I should have bought an X1 for my purposes.

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WYSINWIG: what you see is not what I got.

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D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 28,396
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

I think the only way to get the same results as from the film will be to take three shots with narrow band filters that pass green, red and IR, and combine them in post.

That of course limits you to still subjects and a tripod and the cable release.

Don Cox

 D Cox's gear list:D Cox's gear list
Sigma fp
OP HiddenRealms New Member • Posts: 15
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

This could still work--- try with Foveon Blue and the fringe correction sliders

OP HiddenRealms New Member • Posts: 15
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters
1

D Cox wrote:

I think the only way to get the same results as from the film will be to take three shots with narrow band filters that pass green, red and IR, and combine them in post.

That of course limits you to still subjects and a tripod and the cable release.

Don Cox

Thanks for all the answers so far. It may be impossible to get the exact look of Aerochrome.

It just bothers me that you get to a pretty good result via very strange detours. Why does the Foveon Classic Blue mode and the Fringe Correction lead to these results? SPP is like a black box. I just don't understand it. And if I did understand it, then maybe it would be easier to get the "exact" Aerochrome look, that is, besides red/pink vegetation and dark blue skies, the details like the color changes (red->yellow/green)....

Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 15,701
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

Hi,

Presumably you've seen this already:

https://kolarivision.com/product/kolari-vision-ir-chrome-lens-filter/

Just in case you haven't, here is more info:

https://kolarivision.com/the-irchrome-infrared-photography-filter-our-digital-version-of-kodak-aerochrome/

I don't know how that filter will work with the Foveon sensor. I've been considering getting one of those filters though, just because it looks like a cool filter, I have an SD1 Merrill, and I'd like to experiment with IR photography. If you have it, or if you get it, please post some sample shots here. I'd love to see your results.

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Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/

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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 19,078
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

HiddenRealms wrote:

This could still work--- try with Foveon Blue and the fringe correction sliders

I'm using SPP 3.5.2 - it has none of the above.

I already played in RawTherapee's 3-channel color mixer:

-- hide signature --

WYSINWIG: what you see is not what I got.

 xpatUSA's gear list:xpatUSA's gear list
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OP HiddenRealms New Member • Posts: 15
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

D Cox wrote:

My experience is limited to exposing a couple of rolls of the Kodak film back in the 1960s, so I can't help much. But looking at the diagram tells me that the filter needs to block blue and pass IR. It would appear yellow to the eye, but various yellow filters may or may not pass IR. The Kodak Wratten Filters book will help, but you may need an interference filter.

Can the Foveon distinguish between red and IR, as the film does ?

Once you have three colours for green, red and IR, you can swap channels around in software to get a pleasing result.

Film with no filter:

Film with orange filter:

Have fun !

Don Cox

Thanks for sharing these pictures.

It's interesting that I can get almost the same look (as with orange filter) with the red filter (on the SD1).

Like your Aerochrome photos, most of the ones I see on the internet have a color cast. I have now adjusted the white balance of your orange image in Photoshop - and look: The taillights and also the traffic signs suddenly no longer have this strong yellow tone, but go more into a "washed out" red/orange... similar to my SD1 image with the red filter...

If you use an orange filter (like the Tiffen 16 for example) with the SD1, red colors stay red...

Hmm...

Red filter, CWB, Foveon Classic Blue,... just SPP processing, nothing else

xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 19,078
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

HiddenRealms wrote:

D Cox wrote:

I think the only way to get the same results as from the film will be to take three shots with narrow band filters that pass green, red and IR, and combine them in post.

That of course limits you to still subjects and a tripod and the cable release.

Don Cox

Thanks for all the answers so far. It may be impossible to get the exact look of Aerochrome.

And yet, in the link that I gave you, the Hoya 49mm X1 is said not to require significant post-processing adjustments ...

It just bothers me that you get to a pretty good result via very strange detours. Why does the Foveon Classic Blue mode and the Fringe Correction lead to these results? SPP is like a black box. I just don't understand it. And if I did understand it, then maybe it would be easier to get the "exact" Aerochrome look, that is, besides red/pink vegetation and dark blue skies, the details like the color changes (red->yellow/green)....

I would recommend a three-channel color mixer. It's action is the same as a 3x3 color matrix as used internally by the SD1 and by SPP. Well worth a try.

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WYSINWIG: what you see is not what I got.

 xpatUSA's gear list:xpatUSA's gear list
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OP HiddenRealms New Member • Posts: 15
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters
1

Scottelly wrote:

Hi,

Presumably you've seen this already:

https://kolarivision.com/product/kolari-vision-ir-chrome-lens-filter/

Just in case you haven't, here is more info:

https://kolarivision.com/the-irchrome-infrared-photography-filter-our-digital-version-of-kodak-aerochrome/

I don't know how that filter will work with the Foveon sensor. I've been considering getting one of those filters though, just because it looks like a cool filter, I have an SD1 Merrill, and I'd like to experiment with IR photography. If you have it, or if you get it, please post some sample shots here. I'd love to see your results.

Thank you, but the look is very different (and ugly in my view):

You can remove the IR cut filter on Sigma Foveon cameras - it's fun! - DIY Photography

OP HiddenRealms New Member • Posts: 15
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

I would recommend a three-channel color mixer. It's action is the same as a 3x3 color matrix as used internally by the SD1 and by SPP. Well worth a try.

How would you this? With Photoshop?

OP HiddenRealms New Member • Posts: 15
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

xpatUSA wrote:

HiddenRealms wrote:

This could still work--- try with Foveon Blue and the fringe correction sliders

I'm using SPP 3.5.2 - it has none of the above.

I already played in RawTherapee's 3-channel color mixer:

Maybe this is a stupid question, but why SPP version 3.5.2?

xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 19,078
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

HiddenRealms wrote:

I would recommend a three-channel color mixer. It's action is the same as a 3x3 color matrix as used internally by the SD1 and by SPP. Well worth a try.

How would you this? With Photoshop?

I use the free RawTherapee 5.8:

https://rawtherapee.com/

http://rawpedia.rawtherapee.com/Channel_Mixer

The mixer is under the color tab.

I don't know Photoshop - my computer is deliberately Adobe-free.

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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 19,078
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters

HiddenRealms wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

HiddenRealms wrote:

This could still work--- try with Foveon Blue and the fringe correction sliders

I'm using SPP 3.5.2 - it has none of the above.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but why SPP version 3.5.2?

I prefer it for my SD9 and SD15. I will never download SPP 6 which is known to mess up Merrill X3Fs rendering them unusable in previous SPP versions..

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EEvan
EEvan Regular Member • Posts: 257
Re: Better "Aerochrome" (SD1) with red/yellow/orange filters
1

Scottelly wrote:

Hi,

Presumably you've seen this already:

https://kolarivision.com/product/kolari-vision-ir-chrome-lens-filter/

Just in case you haven't, here is more info:

https://kolarivision.com/the-irchrome-infrared-photography-filter-our-digital-version-of-kodak-aerochrome/

I don't know how that filter will work with the Foveon sensor. I've been considering getting one of those filters though, just because it looks like a cool filter, I have an SD1 Merrill, and I'd like to experiment with IR photography. If you have it, or if you get it, please post some sample shots here. I'd love to see your results.

I wish they had their 34mm rounds for this filter. The results look interesting.

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