Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?

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kodachromed Junior Member • Posts: 34
Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?
12

Not to scale...the GM5 is tiny.

My beloved GM5 paired with the Leica branded 15mm f1.7 lens sure does resemble the appearance of the "Q"

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victorav Senior Member • Posts: 1,222
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?
3

kodachromed wrote:

Not to scale...the GM5 is tiny.

My beloved GM5 paired with the Leica branded 15mm f1.7 lens sure does resemble the appearance of the "Q"

Honestly, not a bad alternative to the Q.

mring1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,486
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?
1

My "museum kit". The PL 15/1.7 is spectacular and almost invisible on the GM5. But I've put it on my M5MKIII, and with IS it's even better. Really...amazing.

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Henry Richardson Forum Pro • Posts: 19,135
Leica TL2 & Panasonic ZS100/TZ100/TX1
5

Yes, they are very similar.

About 2 years ago I posted and showed how the Leica TL2 and Panasonic ZS100/TZ100/TX1 have similar styling (except for size):

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62337549

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Henry Richardson
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Gnine Senior Member • Posts: 2,686
Re: Leica TL2 & Panasonic ZS100/TZ100/TX1
3

Henry Richardson wrote:

Yes, they are very similar.

About 2 years ago I posted and showed how the Leica TL2 and Panasonic ZS100/TZ100/TX1 have similar styling (except for size):

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62337549

Yes, very similar. They both take photos. How much closer can you get hey?

cba_melbourne
cba_melbourne Senior Member • Posts: 3,715
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?
3

kodachromed wrote:

Not to scale...the GM5 is tiny.

My beloved GM5 paired with the Leica branded 15mm f1.7 lens sure does resemble the appearance of the "Q"

No coincidence. Panasonic and Leica had a cooperation agreement for digital cameras and lenses since 2001. Some Panasonic made cameras were even sold by Leica under the Leica badge (like the Leica D-Lux 5 from 2010 was a re-branded Panasonic LX5, or more recently the L-mount Leica SL2 is a re-skinned Panasonic S1R).

In 2014 they expanded this cooperation agreement into a partnership agreement. It expired in 2019 and was not officially renewed, but looks like they just let it continue for the foreseeable future. Both companies benefit, in essence Leica exchanged lens know-how for digital camera technology. And as the picture shows, Panasonic may also have picked up some design ideas - because all that is lacking on that GM5 is the red dot up front.....

https://news.panasonic.com/global/topics/2014/29096.html

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Henry Richardson Forum Pro • Posts: 19,135
Leica & Minolta in the 1970s
6

For some years Leica and Panasonic were in bed together. Back in the 1970s it was Leica and Minolta which were having wild sex together though.

Leica CL and Minolta CL

http://leicaphilia.com/the-leica-leitz-minolta-cl/

Leica R4, R5, R6, R7 and Minolta XD11 (XD7/XD)

http://rokkorfiles.com/XD11.html

Some Minolta SLR lenses and Leica SLR lenses are believed to have been joint designs with Leica as well.

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Henry Richardson
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fft2000 Contributing Member • Posts: 929
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?
2

kodachromed wrote:

Not to scale...the GM5 is tiny.

My beloved GM5 paired with the Leica branded 15mm f1.7 lens sure does resemble the appearance of the "Q"

It's more the other way:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/m3.htm

Panasonic looks like a Leica M3 (produced 1954-1967)

Gnine Senior Member • Posts: 2,686
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?
1

Seriously, some of you must have very vivid imaginations. The only similarities I can see, is that they're both cameras. Totally different control layouts & functions, size, format, one is even a fake rangefinder style. I'm just not seeing it, no matter how hard I squint, or which way I rotate my phone or monitor. I've even consumed a couple of ales, & that never helped either.

fft2000 Contributing Member • Posts: 929
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?
1

Gnine wrote:

Seriously, some of you must have very vivid imaginations. The only similarities I can see, is that they're both cameras. Totally different control layouts & functions, size, format, one is even a fake rangefinder style. I'm just not seeing it, no matter how hard I squint, or which way I rotate my phone or monitor. I've even consumed a couple of ales, & that never helped either.

The rounded edges and keeping dials strictly on the right side on the top. It's about aesthetic impression and not exact copy, so putting them on each other would (nearly) perfectly match (like the optical design from Oly 100-400 and Sigma 100-400).

Other cameras usually look like a box. The Leica M design is quite unique.

cba_melbourne
cba_melbourne Senior Member • Posts: 3,715
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?

fft2000 wrote:

kodachromed wrote:

Not to scale...the GM5 is tiny.

My beloved GM5 paired with the Leica branded 15mm f1.7 lens sure does resemble the appearance of the "Q"

It's more the other way:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/m3.htm

Panasonic looks like a Leica M3 (produced 1954-1967)

The GM5 is a modern design, purely functional, no retro looks at all.

You are confusing the GM5 with the Pen-F. That is very much a retro design, loosely inspired by the pre-ww2 Leica III.

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Gnine Senior Member • Posts: 2,686
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?

fft2000 wrote:

Gnine wrote:

Seriously, some of you must have very vivid imaginations. The only similarities I can see, is that they're both cameras. Totally different control layouts & functions, size, format, one is even a fake rangefinder style. I'm just not seeing it, no matter how hard I squint, or which way I rotate my phone or monitor. I've even consumed a couple of ales, & that never helped either.

The rounded edges and keeping dials strictly on the right side on the top. It's about aesthetic impression and not exact copy, so putting them on each other would (nearly) perfectly match (like the optical design from Oly 100-400 and Sigma 100-400).

Other cameras usually look like a box. The Leica M design is quite unique.

Hmmm. Now that you mention that, I can see it (the rounded ends of the body) I reckon that's a pretty tenuous link though. My 2 cents anyway.

Jon Schick Veteran Member • Posts: 4,725
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?
1

cba_melbourne wrote:

You are confusing the GM5 with the Pen-F. That is very much a retro design, loosely inspired by the pre-ww2 Leica III.

Surely the Pen F is inspired by ..... the Pen F (35mm version)?

Pen F and film Pen F

In terms of the similarities between the Q and the GM5/15mm combo, as others have said, the partnership between Leica and Lumix goes back quite a way - at least as far back as the excellent Digilux 2 (very much inspired by the look of the Leica M) and Lumix LC-1 (I always thought the Lumix was the better looking of those two).

It's no surprise that the Leica branded lenses sold by Panasonic have some styling cues similar to Leica themselves, including for example the font used for lens markings, and as for the body, well the Leica Q again uses the traditional Leica rangefinder for its inspiration; I don't think they really would have been very much influenced by the GM5.

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cameralight Regular Member • Posts: 276
Re: Leica TL2 & Panasonic ZS100/TZ100/TX1
1

Henry Richardson wrote:

Yes, they are very similar.

About 2 years ago I posted and showed how the Leica TL2 and Panasonic ZS100/TZ100/TX1 have similar styling (except for size):

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62337549

Leica and Panasonic have such a close partnership at this stage that Leica is almost Panasonic's luxury brand (in a similar way to Volkswagen and Audi, or Toyota and Lexus).

As well as Leica rebadging the LX100 and FX bridge cameras, cameras like the Q/Q2 and the L-mount cameras are basically luxury, high-end implementations of Panasonic hardware (with Leica input in the design, optics, firmware, menus and some of the internals).

Skeeterbytes Forum Pro • Posts: 19,181
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?

Great circle of life? Always found the GM5 reminiscent of the Leica IIIc, especially the radiused ends. Although it's the Pen F that borrows the shutter speed dial.

Cheers,

Rick

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MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 42,312
I hate to say it ...
2

But when you make a camera with an absolute flat top, minimal grip, and the necessary evf embedded in the top left hand corner these basic design clues tend to make them look much the same whether there is intent to do so or otherwise.

I would prefer strap hangers built in flush to the camera body - but all of the M4/3 camera seem to have taken to the external stud strap hangers - even Olympus bodies which have no obvious Leica-look.

The “Leica” sometimes shown on the lens faceplate can leave the innocent fooled.  Except for the redundant but retro-look mechanical wheels favoured by Leica it is hardly surprising that the GM5 looks as if the same guided hand was involved.

However I concede that the GM5 is very much like a mini-Leica (make mine all-black if possible).   I even put a little red joke-sticker on the front for the amusement of the public.  But I would never cover up the “Lumix” brand - as much as I had covered the “Samsung” on my NX10 with a dymo sticker “NIKOFF” and sagely advised the curious that it was a new brand of Russian camera - to which they always nodded happily and went off quite satisfied.

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Tom Caldwell

MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 42,312
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?

cba_melbourne wrote:

fft2000 wrote:

kodachromed wrote:

Not to scale...the GM5 is tiny.

My beloved GM5 paired with the Leica branded 15mm f1.7 lens sure does resemble the appearance of the "Q"

It's more the other way:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/m3.htm

Panasonic looks like a Leica M3 (produced 1954-1967)

The GM5 is a modern design, purely functional, no retro looks at all.

You are confusing the GM5 with the Pen-F. That is very much a retro design, loosely inspired by the pre-ww2 Leica III.

They tried the mechanical EV control on the GX9 and simply mucked up what was was an extremely functional set of top plate controls in the process. It is arguable that mechanical speed dials and EV dials are just a retro throwback for style on modern electronically controlled cameras. Not only are camera bodies getting physically smaller but the need for user controls has increased exponentially since digital replaced film. Luckily Panasonic introduced an excellent touch screen interface which when used on the GM series allows it to remain quite functional despite its tiny size.

Unfortunately “the wheel” on the GM1 take some level of understanding and many early users did not have the patience to learn to use the soft touch and insisted in poking, prodding and jerking.

Generally speaking Panasonic eschews retro simply for the sake of the retro-look but the the mechanical EV wheel on the GX9 was a rare and unnecessary unforced error.

It wasn’t the wheel in itself but the other necessary changes made to the top plate to fit it in. The best compromise is to simply switch the wheel function off as an not-necessary bit of visual junk.

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Tom Caldwell

MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 42,312
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?
1

Skeeterbytes wrote:

Great circle of life? Always found the GM5 reminiscent of the Leica IIIc, especially the radiused ends. Although it's the Pen F that borrows the shutter speed dial.

Cheers,

Rick

“Most of the time”  Panasonic uses “retro” where it is the best choice and not “retro” because it invokes some faint recollections of the style that was once used as a very necessary need caused by mechanical control.

Such things as mechanical shutter speed dials and mechanical EV dials are arguably not really necessary on digital camera bodies other than to check their setting when the camera is switched off. Surely serious photographers should know where they left their camera set, have switch on standard known configurations, or re-set their cameras to known configurations when they close them down for the day?

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Tom Caldwell

cba_melbourne
cba_melbourne Senior Member • Posts: 3,715
Re: Did Leica take a "cue" from the GM5 ?

Tom Caldwell wrote:

.......

Such things as mechanical shutter speed dials and mechanical EV dials are arguably not really necessary on digital camera bodies other than to check their setting when the camera is switched off.

I have to say though, that I would prefer mechanical dials. Not for EV. But definitely for shutter speed, aperture, focus and ISO.

Maybe it is still old film-time habits I cannot get rid of. Likely I am a little behind. But if I see a subject, I already mentally decide on either aperture or exposure time, and very often ISO too. Before I even turn on the camera.

Sure, once the camera is on, I let the metering do some fine corrections. But the key fundamentals I decide on before even taking the camera out of the pocket or bag. And then I would appreciate seeing on real mechanical dials, what the current settings are.

In the film days, I liked top LCD displays as well for that. But m43 cameras I am interested in have no room for such LCD (and the G9 is way way too big for me, that is not why I did choose m43). Also, a mirrorless camera would have to be turned on for such top display to work, which would kill the battery several times over if left on the whole day.

Surely serious photographers should know where they left their camera set, have switch on standard known configurations, or re-set their cameras to known configurations when they close them down for the day?

Err, not me. Likely that I am not serious enough.

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MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 42,312
Easy read dials and a developed habit alternative

cba_melbourne wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

.......

Such things as mechanical shutter speed dials and mechanical EV dials are arguably not really necessary on digital camera bodies other than to check their setting when the camera is switched off.

I have to say though, that I would prefer mechanical dials. Not for EV. But definitely for shutter speed, aperture, focus and ISO.

Mine:

EV, Shutter Speed and ISO - no, as I like to have my camera switched on to monitor them

Aperture & focus - yes, as these are my main tools.

Maybe it is still old film-time habits I cannot get rid of. Likely I am a little behind. But if I see a subject, I already mentally decide on either aperture or exposure time, and very often ISO too. Before I even turn on the camera.

All fair comment - I tend to use Aperture Priority, let the shutter speed and ISO sort itself out and play with the EV as I need to change it after maybe a test shot or two (if I can) to see how the image is working out.  Even if I start with a slightly negative EV as my normal jumping off point.  I find that I haven’t the wit to know more that “slightly negative works best” until I see what that is doing to my image.  So “knowing” EV in advance doesn’t help this particular fella much.  Furthermore by using Aperture priority pre-setting the shutter speed is of no immediate benefit. Obviously on shutter speed critical situations I will indeed use shutter priority or Manual control.  But I find that with Shutter Priority I have my own idea what is the minimum or maximum I would use but tend to adjust it to what suits the then shooting conditions.  This means that I tend to have an idea of what I need and start from there and adjust as necessary.  But my personal style does not need to have these controls visible as I always have them as my starting settings.  Slightly better than iAuto I suppose

What I do need is an easy-set aperture and an aperture ring on the lens is not always available.

The Ricoh GXR-M spoiled me a bit as in one of the must-use custom mode controls the set-settings were always the same for each mode when the camera was switched on.  But on a session you could temporarily save the presets to save re-adjusting them at each switch-on - then revert to your longer-term settings in a click or so.

Here we had normal which remembered the last settings use - three dial modes which could be labelled by the user and six other modes in the camera as backup.  All could be changed and saved on the fly.  In practice the backup modes could be used to replace the dial modes with a known set of standards and the dial modes could be temporarily changed in a session as was necessary.  All kept sensible as the settings could be given useful names which were shown on the lcd when they were selected.

Sort of spoiled me - I have tended to have “my” camera settings as a known starting point on each camera body and try and remember. To return to my default starting set before closing down for the session.

What I thought was a fault in Panasonic cameras actually is a neat assist helper.  In “S” more the screens gain up or down so that there is good exposure to make focus even if the caught exposure is not correct.  In M mode the screen tries to emulate the correct exposure, but if you are trying for high or low key then focus or composition can be difficult.  As S & M are next to one another on the dial it is easy to set aperture and shutter speed in M to get the exposure to satisfaction then switch to S to compose and check focus where the screen gains to try and provide what the image should look like if correctly exposed.  You can easily switch between S & M and the settings remain the same once set.

Sure, once the camera is on, I let the metering do some fine corrections. But the key fundamentals I decide on before even taking the camera out of the pocket or bag. And then I would appreciate seeing on real mechanical dials, what the current settings are.

In the film days, I liked top LCD displays as well for that. But m43 cameras I am interested in have no room for such LCD (and the G9 is way way too big for me, that is not why I did choose m43). Also, a mirrorless camera would have to be turned on for such top display to work, which would kill the battery several times over if left on the whole day.

Surely serious photographers should know where they left their camera set, have switch on standard known configurations, or re-set their cameras to known configurations when they close them down for the day?

Err, not me. Likely that I am not serious enough.

I had to try and do this “standard” startup setting business as I was caught out a few times where I had forgotten a that I left my camera in an unusual set-up situation and blazed away next time and wondered why the images looked “odd”.  Luckily we have post-processing of RAW files.

.... and I agree - if I had not developed my standard set-up habit at close down I would have needed mechanical dials in an effort to make sure that the camera was actually set up in some sort of meaningful way before I started clacking the shutter.

I found that indoor tungsten light settings can make blue sea and blue sky impossibly blue ....

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Tom Caldwell

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