How to use new SSD and HDD drives most effectively

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
WryCuda Forum Pro • Posts: 10,565
Re: How to use new SSD and HDD drives most effectively

21tones wrote:

Thanks for your further responses.

I am still awaiting a response from ON1 as well waiting to get my computer back from the tech.

Before I start installing and configuring everything I may run past you what I propose to do given the advice in this thread.

Phoenix Arizona Craig - do you use particular software for your disaster recovery?

I'd be reluctant to be overly prescriptive about giving installation and configuration advice, since "one size doesn't fit all".

Seems that you already have some good advice about ON1 configuration, and once that is dealt with, everything else should be easy. Craig obviously knows what he's doing, but his requirements are at the extreme end of home computing.

Since there are three users in my office, I have three computers plus a spare, with two of them acting as file servers (one for Office data, another for Photos). In addition to the server data, recent copies are available on each computer and several backup external HDDs.

In the event of hardware failure, I can quickly re-purpose the remaining computers to carry on normal operations, and I do not bother with system backups.

I've never had the need for a full system restore, and rely on the hardware redundancy option. I've never lost a single bit of data in 30+ years.

FYI, my present network is set up as follows...

Office Server. Dell laptop AMD R7, 512Gb SSD (also Web, Zoom, MS-Office etc.)

Games Computer. Acer laptop AMD A9, 120Gb SSD, 2Tb HDD (also Web, email, MS-Office)

Photo Server. Dell i7, 512Gb SSD, 1Tb HDD (also heavy duty games, flight sim, MS-Office)

Spare. HP laptop, 1Tb HDD (also Netflix at the moment)

Typically, I refresh the hardware every 5 years.

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kelpdiver Veteran Member • Posts: 4,573
Re: How to use new SSD and HDD drives most effectively

edispics wrote:

I have my OS and pgms on C and my data is on D all the way up through the alphabet.

I have data separation, I don't need the unnecessary partitioning of my C drive to accomplish that.

so you do it yourself, but still want to argue for the unified?   What do you care if someone else does "unnecessary partitioning?"

4 and 8tb SSDs are a reality now, and someone might want to use a single one of them in a laptop.   Enter partitioning.

edispics
edispics Veteran Member • Posts: 4,404
Re: How to use new SSD and HDD drives most effectively

kelpdiver wrote:

edispics wrote:

I have my OS and pgms on C and my data is on D all the way up through the alphabet.

I have data separation, I don't need the unnecessary partitioning of my C drive to accomplish that.

so you do it yourself, but still want to argue for the unified? What do you care if someone else does "unnecessary partitioning?"

4 and 8tb SSDs are a reality now, and someone might want to use a single one of them in a laptop. Enter partitioning.

a) You did not read my initial statement which said except in some cases

b) You did not read the OP's first post where he wants to use an SSD for C for OS and pgms and a spinner for D and data.

For the above scenario the OP should do precisely that. Partitoning, for the OP, for what he plans to do, provides no value added.

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skanter
skanter Forum Pro • Posts: 23,684
Re: How to use new SSD and HDD drives most effectively

PHXAZCRAIG wrote:

21tones wrote:

Having read a few threads on this forum the general advice seems to be to put the OS and all programs on C and all data on D.

In addition I would be using the computer for web browsing and e-mail.

I don't want to clutter up the C drive with the inevitable junk that results from this.

Is there any way to have e-mail and internet data go on to the D drive?

(Although I don't want to clutter that either!)

I use ON1 software, and with my new drive setup will be, finally, cataloguing all my photos.

ON1 tell me it is not possible to backup the catalogue to an external drive and restore it to the C drive, if there are any problems with that drive, because of something to do with the GUID (which I don't understand).

So I will have to back up the catalogue from the C drive to the D drive and hope that both drives don't fail.

Does this sound right to you technical experts? I assumed I could do a full backup and restore it all onto the C drive if it had to be wiped e.g because of a virus.

There are at least two questions in here - one is how to manage keeping the SSD boot drive free from excess stuff, and the other has to do with restoring full backups.

Personally, I have an approach that uses two SSD's and one HDD, but it's basically the same as your system. I have the OS and programs running from the C drive, and I have a big HDD (8TB) to hold all my photos and videos. I have a separate system for backing everything up to a NAS (batch files that copy my photos every night at 2am), and another programs to back the NAS up to a second NAS. I've also tried backup programs (from the NAS and before) that are designed to do a full restore in the event I have to wipe out the boot drive. (That kind of backup/restore is known as disaster recovery. More below).

I add in second SSD as a working drive so I neither gum up the boot drive nor have to work on a slower HDD. But if your boot drive is big enough, just do some of the work there, if it makes a significant difference. I like my method because it tends to be easier to move to a new pc or do disaster recovery.

Here's the trick I suggest to keep excess stuff off your boot drive. I suggest you relocate the location of your default Windows folders Desktop, Documents, Downloads, Pictures, Music and Videos to point to your D drive. It's quite easy to do, and this link explains how: https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-tip-move-your-default-data-folders-to-a-different-drive/

As for backup, just a little more information. If you need to restore some data to a working Windows system, you just need to back up that data and later copy it back. But if you need Disaster Recovery where you have to restore the entire PC, including the Windows boot system, then you need a particular kind of backup and restore program.

For Disaster Recovery, there are two issues: The first is copying all the files, including ones that are in use when running the backup software. Copying open files is a problem for most software. Some backup programs have to boot to their own OS to do this sort of backup, which of course means downtime for the length of the backup, and a reboot after. The other issue is restoring the data. You have to assume there is not a working Windows installation, so the restore program needs to boot up on it's own and be able to restore to a blank (or corrupted) disk, wiping out everything underneath. Be sure to look for disaster recovery procedures in any backup software, or you may end up having to reinstall Windows and then the restore software before copying back any data. (And in that scenario it's likely you would also have to reinstall all your software.)

I have a similar issue with my new system arriving soon.Old computer is dead, MB, won’t boot, but HDs are OK.  It comes with one 1T SSD with system. From old system I have another 1T SSD and two 6T HDDs. Unfortunately they only were formatted for 4T on an old win7 system. One is filled with photos, the second has only a few.

I also have 1 4 (maybe 6) T external backup, and bought a USB external dock with 2 slots that takes SSD and HDD. (2.5, 3.5)

Any advice for a strategy for new setting up and migrating to new system would be appreciated - I’m overwhelmed. I mainly use Lightroom.

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PHXAZCRAIG
PHXAZCRAIG Forum Pro • Posts: 17,401
Re: How to use new SSD and HDD drives most effectively

skanter wrote:

I have a similar issue with my new system arriving soon.Old computer is dead, MB, won’t boot, but HDs are OK.

This is about the best of the worlds where your old system has died.   Especially if the boot drive can be seen in another system, even if you can't boot off it.    If the drive can be 'seen' when plugged into another PC, then you can go to that drive letter and start copying data off.

It comes with one 1T SSD with system. From old system I have another 1T SSD and two 6T HDDs. Unfortunately they only were formatted for 4T on an old win7 system. One is filled with photos, the second has only a few.

Well, that just means there is a way for you to gain 2TB...   I'd prefer to have one large 6TB partition, but if you can't easily get the data off it, you could still just go partition and reformat the unused 2TB section.   You'd end up with 2 drive letters, but 2TB more space.

I also have 1 4 (maybe 6) T external backup, and bought a USB external dock with 2 slots that takes SSD and HDD. (2.5, 3.5)

If you have a drive (or two, better) that can hold 4TB of data, then start copying off the 4TB partitions that are too small.  Once you have a copy (preferably two) somewhere, you can repartion and reformat the 6TB drive to gain all 6TB in a single partition.

Any advice for a strategy for new setting up and migrating to new system would be appreciated - I’m overwhelmed. I mainly use Lightroom.

Step 1 is to know where your data is so you can copy it off.   The trick is to find the data among the various Windows folders if you kept it on a boot drive.

Realize that you will have to reinstall all your software and all your patches.   You should start by collecting all the serial numbers, installation files, and patches to make that easier.   It sounds like you don't have access to the programs right now, but if you did, I'd try to back up the settings or write them down for any complex software.

Personally, since I've had to reinstall Windows so many times over the past 25 years, I've created a Serial Numbers folder where I store text files and the like with my software registration numbers.   You don't want to spend a lot of time search around for that stuff.  At least with new PC's and SSD boot drives, it's a lot lot faster to reinstall everything.  The last PC I built installed Win10 from DVD in 20 minutes.

With a new PC, you'll have a new installation of Windows.  Or you will install it (from scratch or just finish a commercial installation with your ID).   Even if you don't have to install it, I'd create a new account for your name, and I'd create second account to use as kind of a backup and test account.  (Make sure it is an administrator account).

You'll have to reinstall Lightroom, but once you do, you should be able to just copy over the catalog over the old (new) one and have your old Lightroom data back.  There are instructions on the Internet for moving catalogs.

For most of your data moving, I'm assuming you'll take one of the old drives, connect it to the new PC, map a drive to it, and then just xcopy the drive contents from old to new drives.   You might even simply connect an old drive to the new PC and be done right there, using the old drive as-is, if it's not suspect.   As long as you achieve at least one full backup once the new drives are situated.

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,285
Re: How to use new SSD and HDD drives most effectively

PHXAZCRAIG wrote:

This is about the best of the worlds where your old system has died. Especially if the boot drive can be seen in another system, even if you can't boot off it. If the drive can be 'seen' when plugged into another PC, then you can go to that drive letter and start copying data off.

Just be aware that the security settings on the files may prevent you from accessing them if you try to use the drive on a different system using a different account.  If that happens you'll need to use an administrative account and go into the file security settings to "take ownership" of the files - that will allow you to modify their permissions so that you can access them.

skanter
skanter Forum Pro • Posts: 23,684
Re: How to use new SSD and HDD drives most effectively

PHXAZCRAIG wrote:

skanter wrote:

I have a similar issue with my new system arriving soon.Old computer is dead, MB, won’t boot, but HDs are OK.

This is about the best of the worlds where your old system has died. Especially if the boot drive can be seen in another system, even if you can't boot off it. If the drive can be 'seen' when plugged into another PC, then you can go to that drive letter and start copying data off.

It comes with one 1T SSD with system. From old system I have another 1T SSD and two 6T HDDs. Unfortunately they only were formatted for 4T on an old win7 system. One is filled with photos, the second has only a few.

Well, that just means there is a way for you to gain 2TB... I'd prefer to have one large 6TB partition, but if you can't easily get the data off it, you could still just go partition and reformat the unused 2TB section. You'd end up with 2 drive letters, but 2TB more space.

I also have 1 4 (maybe 6) T external backup, and bought a USB external dock with 2 slots that takes SSD and HDD. (2.5, 3.5)

If you have a drive (or two, better) that can hold 4TB of data, then start copying off the 4TB partitions that are too small. Once you have a copy (preferably two) somewhere, you can repartion and reformat the 6TB drive to gain all 6TB in a single partition.

Any advice for a strategy for new setting up and migrating to new system would be appreciated - I’m overwhelmed. I mainly use Lightroom.

Step 1 is to know where your data is so you can copy it off. The trick is to find the data among the various Windows folders if you kept it on a boot drive.

Realize that you will have to reinstall all your software and all your patches. You should start by collecting all the serial numbers, installation files, and patches to make that easier. It sounds like you don't have access to the programs right now, but if you did, I'd try to back up the settings or write them down for any complex software.

Personally, since I've had to reinstall Windows so many times over the past 25 years, I've created a Serial Numbers folder where I store text files and the like with my software registration numbers. You don't want to spend a lot of time search around for that stuff. At least with new PC's and SSD boot drives, it's a lot lot faster to reinstall everything. The last PC I built installed Win10 from DVD in 20 minutes.

With a new PC, you'll have a new installation of Windows. Or you will install it (from scratch or just finish a commercial installation with your ID). Even if you don't have to install it, I'd create a new account for your name, and I'd create second account to use as kind of a backup and test account. (Make sure it is an administrator account).

You'll have to reinstall Lightroom, but once you do, you should be able to just copy over the catalog over the old (new) one and have your old Lightroom data back. There are instructions on the Internet for moving catalogs.

For most of your data moving, I'm assuming you'll take one of the old drives, connect it to the new PC, map a drive to it, and then just xcopy the drive contents from old to new drives. You might even simply connect an old drive to the new PC and be done right there, using the old drive as-is, if it's not suspect. As long as you achieve at least one full backup once the new drives are situated.

Thanks for the extensive answer. I’m finding it a bit overwhelming, and may have more questions when the new system arrives and I attempt to migrate to it.

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skanter
skanter Forum Pro • Posts: 23,684
Re: How to use new SSD and HDD drives most effectively

Sean Nelson wrote:

PHXAZCRAIG wrote:

This is about the best of the worlds where your old system has died. Especially if the boot drive can be seen in another system, even if you can't boot off it. If the drive can be 'seen' when plugged into another PC, then you can go to that drive letter and start copying data off.

Just be aware that the security settings on the files may prevent you from accessing them if you try to use the drive on a different system using a different account. If that happens you'll need to use an administrative account and go into the file security settings to "take ownership" of the files - that will allow you to modify their permissions so that you can access them.

Thanks - will be aware!

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kelpdiver Veteran Member • Posts: 4,573
Re: How to use new SSD and HDD drives most effectively

edispics wrote:

a) You did not read my initial statement which said except in some cases

weasel words you don't actually mean.

Justme Forum Pro • Posts: 22,236
Great info so far

Great timing as I just received my new computer.  512GB SSD and 2 TB HDD.

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skanter Forum Pro • Posts: 23,684
Re: Great info so far

Justme wrote:

Great timing as I just received my new computer. 512GB SSD and 2 TB HDD.

Which system did you get?

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OP 21tones Regular Member • Posts: 303
Re: Great info so far
1

Well I've finally got a reply from ON1 software's tech people, and after a lot of pushing, they have finally acknowledged that

"The only way to accomplish a full backup of cataloged folders, smart albums and more would be to use a drive cloning software so that you can perfectly clone the C drive to your D drive.

Beyond this ON1 will not be able to read any cataloged folders or other content when it is moved from drive to drive as it is not designed to do so."

So, Austinian was right. I will investigate Macrium Reflect  for this purpose.

I want to thank everyone who has advised me in this thread.

Technical stuff is daunting to me, but I have learned a lot, and feel more confident about utilising my new setup in the most effective way. (When I get it back from the tech!)

Thanks and Best Wishes

skyglider Veteran Member • Posts: 5,806
Re: Great info so far

21tones wrote:

Well I've finally got a reply from ON1 software's tech people, and after a lot of pushing, they have finally acknowledged that

"The only way to accomplish a full backup of cataloged folders, smart albums and more would be to use a drive cloning software so that you can perfectly clone the C drive to your D drive.

That is not entirely correct.  Cloning a drive will do it, for sure.  But the other way is to do a full image backup of the entire drive.  Then that backup can be restored to a new replacement drive and end up being exactly like a cloned drive.

Cloning a drive allows the backup drive to hold one backup of the entire source drive.  But the big advantage of doing an image backup is that many full backups can be stored on one backup drive.  Or full backups of different drives on one backup drive.  I highly recommend doing image backups instead of clone backups in your non-business situation.

Beyond this ON1 will not be able to read any cataloged folders or other content when it is moved from drive to drive as it is not designed to do so."

So, Austinian was right. I will investigate Macrium Reflect for this purpose.

Yes, Macrium Reflect Free can make cloned or image backups.  It is a really good backup program and the price is right (free).

Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,285
Re: Great info so far
2

21tones wrote:

Well I've finally got a reply from ON1 software's tech people, and after a lot of pushing, they have finally acknowledged that

"The only way to accomplish a full backup of cataloged folders, smart albums and more would be to use a drive cloning software so that you can perfectly clone the C drive to your D drive.

Beyond this ON1 will not be able to read any cataloged folders or other content when it is moved from drive to drive as it is not designed to do so."

Wow.  I don't know if that's a deliberate choice designed to make it harder to clone off bootleg copies, but for me it would completely disqualify them as a choice.  I'm all about future-proofing - it's bad enough to use proprietary data stores but if a piece of software is welded onto my OS with no way for me to move it to the next system I purchase then I want no part of it.

WryCuda Forum Pro • Posts: 10,565
Re: Great info so far

21tones wrote:

Well I've finally got a reply from ON1 software's tech people, and after a lot of pushing, they have finally acknowledged that

"The only way to accomplish a full backup of cataloged folders, smart albums and more would be to use a drive cloning software so that you can perfectly clone the C drive to your D drive.

Beyond this ON1 will not be able to read any cataloged folders or other content when it is moved from drive to drive as it is not designed to do so."

You reported virtually the same response from ON1 about a week ago...

"Currently the only way to back up, catalogs and cache are to use a full system back up.
This only works for the current system, and would not restore files to a new machine.

Any type of backup, currently, would require a full back up on the existing machine, and does not allow for a complete restore to a new computer, due to file differences in the (GUID)"

Back then, I suggested then that you look for a better photo program.

BTW, if you are doing this stuff properly, there's no need to mirror your system, IMHO.

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skanter Forum Pro • Posts: 23,684
New System arrived!

Dell 8940 - It seems fast and silent. Here is current drive situation:

C: is current 1T SSD system drive that came with computer

H: is previous 1T SSD system drive that is in an external dock for now

I: is 6T HDD drive that has only latest photos for LR catalogue, in external dock

E: is 5T external backup HDD

F: is empty - I think a partition never used?

G: is the same, unused partition?

I have access to all drives.

I have another 6T HDD filled with photos for LR catalogues

I think only two slots left in chassis, one SSD and one HDD. The dock also has space for one SSD and one HDD.

I’ve installed new version of LR. Where do i go from here? Making best use of former C SSD, renaming drives, linking to LR, etc.

Thanks in advance...

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OP 21tones Regular Member • Posts: 303
Re: Great info so far

Skyglider

I don't know what the difference is between cloning a drive and doing a full image backup but I'll read up on it. From what you say it sounds like the full image backup doesn't take as much space.  I guess I need to be doing this once a month or after significant use of the ON1 software so the backup is reasonably up to date vis a vis the catalogue.

Sean Nelson - I agree with you if I were not starting from where I am now! I have invested money and time in learning this software and don't want subscription software, which is why I moved away from Lightroom. (Combined with the fact that ON1 has many of the features of Photoshop incorporated into it).

WryCuda - you did advise against ON1 but see above.

I don't know why I didn't think of doing this before but I have asked the ON1 Community how they have dealt with this. Two have responded saying they have rebuilt the catalog and smart albums when moving to a new computer, and that it doesn't take long.

I can see how to do it. I guess it depends partly on the number of photos one is dealing with.

I won't say anything more about ON1 now, other than the fact that a good friend has it, and advises me on how to use it effectively, is also a factor. As you can see from this thread understanding computer hardware and software is not my strength!

As soon as I get my computer back from the Tech guy I will start putting into place the things you have helpfully suggested.

CAcreeks
CAcreeks Forum Pro • Posts: 16,294
Re: Great info so far

21tones wrote:

Skyglider - I don't know what the difference is between cloning a drive and doing a full image backup but I'll read up on it. From what you say it sounds like the full image backup doesn't take as much space. I guess I need to be doing this once a month or after significant use of the ON1 software so the backup is reasonably up to date vis a vis the catalogue.

A full backup and subsequent restore might have the same effect as disk cloning, although after disk cloning the final layout is the same, including fragmentation, whereas after full restore the disk layout is likely to be more efficient.

As far as ON1 using GUIDs instead of names to identify photo objects, I'm really not sure if full backup and restore will preserve GUIDs as needed, so disk cloning seems advisable. Furthermore full backup and restore would require in-between media, so is slower and more error prone for what you're trying to do.

skyglider Veteran Member • Posts: 5,806
Re: Great info so far

21tones wrote:

Skyglider

I don't know what the difference is between cloning a drive and doing a full image backup but I'll read up on it. From what you say it sounds like the full image backup doesn't take as much space. I guess I need to be doing this once a month or after significant use of the ON1 software so the backup is reasonably up to date vis a vis the catalogue.

CLONING A DRIVE:

Get a new drive of the same or larger capacity. Then Macrium Reflect can make an exact copy of the source drive (the C: drive in your case) on the new drive. Now if the C: drive fails, just replace it with the new cloned drive and you can boot widows and continue running as if nothing happened. Note that only one backup can be stored on the backup drive as a cloned drive, period. You cannot clone two drives to the one backup drive. You can clone any drive whether it is the system C drive or a data D drive or an external USB drive, but it is a one-for-one backup.

A FULL IMAGE BACKUP:

Get a new drive preferably with much more capacity than the drive(s) you want to backup. Like say your C drive is a 500GB SSD and your D drive is a 2TB mechanical HDD, then maybe get a 4TB backup drive.  Preferably two 4TB drives to alternate backups.

In Macrium Reflect, do a full image backup. Macrium will copy everything of value on the source drive to one large file on the backup drive. It will not copy unused space, page or hybernation files. The data copied will be compressed to reduce the file size.

If the source drive fails (say it is the C drive), then you buy a replacement drive. You use Macrium Reflect (MR) to "restore" the image backup to the new drive. That is done using a rescue CD or USB flash drive that MR creates, which means you do not need a working copy of windows to do the restore. When the restore is complete, the new drive will be bootable and have everything of value exactly like it was on the source drive when the backup was made.

Since the image backup is stored as one big file on the backup drive, you can store different image backups on the same backup drive. You can store multiple backups of the C drive on the backup drive and just restore the last image backup if the C drive fails.

I recommend doing image backups on two separate drives. Alternate the backups. Then if one backup drive fails, you will still have the other drive to restore from, though the backup will be older and have less up-to-date data. Better than nothing though.

HOW TO DECIDE WHETHER TO DO A CLONE OR IMAGE BACKUP:

If you have a business and it's crucial that you get your system up asap after a hard drive failure, then you should do a clone backup. But as a home user, it's more practical to do image backups since it only takes about 20 minutes to do a restore of a system drive to the new drive. Large data drives like a 2TB D drive that is half full will take longer. .... Some home users prefer to do clone backups which is a personal preference.

Sky

Austinian
MOD Austinian Forum Pro • Posts: 10,861
Re: Great info so far

skyglider wrote:

21tones wrote:

Skyglider

I don't know what the difference is between cloning a drive and doing a full image backup but I'll read up on it. From what you say it sounds like the full image backup doesn't take as much space. I guess I need to be doing this once a month or after significant use of the ON1 software so the backup is reasonably up to date vis a vis the catalogue.

CLONING A DRIVE:

Get a new drive of the same or larger capacity. Then Macrium Reflect can make an exact copy of the source drive (the C: drive in your case) on the new drive. Now if the C: drive fails, just replace it with the new cloned drive and you can boot widows and continue running as if nothing happened. Note that only one backup can be stored on the backup drive as a cloned drive, period. You cannot clone two drives to the one backup drive. You can clone any drive whether it is the system C drive or a data D drive or an external USB drive, but it is a one-for-one backup.

A FULL IMAGE BACKUP:

Get a new drive preferably with much more capacity than the drive(s) you want to backup. Like say your C drive is a 500GB SSD and your D drive is a 2TB mechanical HDD, then maybe get a 4TB backup drive. Preferably two 4TB drives to alternate backups.

In Macrium Reflect, do a full image backup. Macrium will copy everything of value on the source drive to one large file on the backup drive. It will not copy unused space, page or hybernation files. The data copied will be compressed to reduce the file size.

If the source drive fails (say it is the C drive), then you buy a replacement drive. You use Macrium Reflect (MR) to "restore" the image backup to the new drive. That is done using a rescue CD or USB flash drive that MR creates, which means you do not need a working copy of windows to do the restore. When the restore is complete, the new drive will be bootable and have everything of value exactly like it was on the source drive when the backup was made.

Since the image backup is stored as one big file on the backup drive, you can store different image backups on the same backup drive. You can store multiple backups of the C drive on the backup drive and just restore the last image backup if the C drive fails.

I recommend doing image backups on two separate drives. Alternate the backups. Then if one backup drive fails, you will still have the other drive to restore from, though the backup will be older and have less up-to-date data. Better than nothing though.

HOW TO DECIDE WHETHER TO DO A CLONE OR IMAGE BACKUP:

If you have a business and it's crucial that you get your system up asap after a hard drive failure, then you should do a clone backup. But as a home user, it's more practical to do image backups since it only takes about 20 minutes to do a restore of a system drive to the new drive. Large data drives like a 2TB D drive that is half full will take longer. .... Some home users prefer to do clone backups which is a personal preference.

Very good summary. I would also suggest that when image backups are made with Macrium, the "Auto Verify" choice in "Advanced Options" is used, just to be sure that the backup is OK.

That does increase the backup time substantially, but I think it's worth it in case something did go wrong, though I personally have never seen that.

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