Best NR software for High ISO on R5

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
johncal Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

Karl_Guttag wrote:

I kept hearing about DXO Deep Prime on this forum so I decided to give it a try. I have no experience with it. I pretty much just let it correct for the lens, do the "Deep Prime," improve saturation and despeckle. I followed with Photoshop's Dehaze (maybe there is something like it in DXO, but I knew how to use it in PS).

Below is the on the left is the original image out of DPP4, which frankly was pretty close to how it looked to my eye. The Balloon was far away. This was shot with an RP + 100-400 with a Kenko 2X teleconverter for a total of 800mm. Each crop is only about 950 pixels wide out of 6240 pixels in the RP . The balloon needless to say was far away (I'm guessing about 1 to 2 miles).

I spent less time on the DXO image (pretty much let it do its thing). I was amazed at how great a job it did. I spent less time on it than the all-in-PS image on the right. You will need to see it at 100% to see.

The only thing that seems worse on the DXO image is that there is some purple fringing around the basket on the bottom. I'm not sure of the cause or if this can be fixed.

By belief is the DXO Deep Prime is by far the best. It does everything you need t do to properly "Process" your image. Once done with that, move to P/S to make any physical changes you want or to do virtual spotting and dodging and other things that only P/S can do. It is the only way I do my images and the only way I plan to do my images. I find it makes my RF800 lens way more usable.

 johncal's gear list:johncal's gear list
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ProDude Senior Member • Posts: 2,354
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

johncal wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

I kept hearing about DXO Deep Prime on this forum so I decided to give it a try. I have no experience with it. I pretty much just let it correct for the lens, do the "Deep Prime," improve saturation and despeckle. I followed with Photoshop's Dehaze (maybe there is something like it in DXO, but I knew how to use it in PS).

Below is the on the left is the original image out of DPP4, which frankly was pretty close to how it looked to my eye. The Balloon was far away. This was shot with an RP + 100-400 with a Kenko 2X teleconverter for a total of 800mm. Each crop is only about 950 pixels wide out of 6240 pixels in the RP . The balloon needless to say was far away (I'm guessing about 1 to 2 miles).

I spent less time on the DXO image (pretty much let it do its thing). I was amazed at how great a job it did. I spent less time on it than the all-in-PS image on the right. You will need to see it at 100% to see.

The only thing that seems worse on the DXO image is that there is some purple fringing around the basket on the bottom. I'm not sure of the cause or if this can be fixed.

By belief is the DXO Deep Prime is by far the best. It does everything you need t do to properly "Process" your image. Once done with that, move to P/S to make any physical changes you want or to do virtual spotting and dodging and other things that only P/S can do. It is the only way I do my images and the only way I plan to do my images. I find it makes my RF800 lens way more usable.

Considering that the new DXO 4 is superior not just in NR to Photoshop but also sharpening and their "ClearView" which totally overtakes PS's dehaze. I stick to and IN DXO for all the processing. No need to go elsewhere as it's all in house.

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johncal Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

johncal wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

I kept hearing about DXO Deep Prime on this forum so I decided to give it a try. I have no experience with it. I pretty much just let it correct for the lens, do the "Deep Prime," improve saturation and despeckle. I followed with Photoshop's Dehaze (maybe there is something like it in DXO, but I knew how to use it in PS).

Below is the on the left is the original image out of DPP4, which frankly was pretty close to how it looked to my eye. The Balloon was far away. This was shot with an RP + 100-400 with a Kenko 2X teleconverter for a total of 800mm. Each crop is only about 950 pixels wide out of 6240 pixels in the RP . The balloon needless to say was far away (I'm guessing about 1 to 2 miles).

I spent less time on the DXO image (pretty much let it do its thing). I was amazed at how great a job it did. I spent less time on it than the all-in-PS image on the right. You will need to see it at 100% to see.

The only thing that seems worse on the DXO image is that there is some purple fringing around the basket on the bottom. I'm not sure of the cause or if this can be fixed.

By belief is the DXO Deep Prime is by far the best. It does everything you need t do to properly "Process" your image. Once done with that, move to P/S to make any physical changes you want or to do virtual spotting and dodging and other things that only P/S can do. It is the only way I do my images and the only way I plan to do my images. I find it makes my RF800 lens way more usable.

Considering that the new DXO 4 is superior not just in NR to Photoshop but also sharpening and their "ClearView" which totally overtakes PS's dehaze. I stick to and IN DXO for all the processing. No need to go elsewhere as it's all in house.

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I need to use Photoshop as well with the way I shoot. The image below is 3 separate images blended in Photoshop. I'm a big natural light only shooter and I generally only have about 2 hours in a building to do the entire building so I have to move fast. In the image below the room was very dark and the outside very bright. and the hallway to the right almost pitch black. So sections of the room were blended together out of images made at different exposures to balance the look yet retain a natural appearance. I generally shoot 3 exposures under, one spot on and 3 exposures over, and bias the whole thing at -2/3rds stop to begin with and everything at 100 ISO and at F/8. Everything is shot on a Tripod with Dolly wheels so I can just walk the camera around quickly. My camera has been pre-set for all this so I can just get in there and rock. I just hold down the cable release and it blasts of the 7 exposures.

In DXO the first thing I do is the Geometric corrections in one exposure, and then copy and paste those settings to all the other 6 exposures. Then I adjust each image to specifically bring out the different areas such as windows, center room, and hall in this case. then everything is brought into Photoshop and cut and spliced from there. The typical image takes from 1/2 to 1 hour to complete, but I only spent 60 seconds in the room to take the shot.

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johncal Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

Karl_Guttag wrote:

I kept hearing about DXO Deep Prime on this forum so I decided to give it a try. I have no experience with it. I pretty much just let it correct for the lens, do the "Deep Prime," improve saturation and despeckle. I followed with Photoshop's Dehaze (maybe there is something like it in DXO, but I knew how to use it in PS).

Below is the on the left is the original image out of DPP4, which frankly was pretty close to how it looked to my eye. The Balloon was far away. This was shot with an RP + 100-400 with a Kenko 2X teleconverter for a total of 800mm. Each crop is only about 950 pixels wide out of 6240 pixels in the RP . The balloon needless to say was far away (I'm guessing about 1 to 2 miles).

I spent less time on the DXO image (pretty much let it do its thing). I was amazed at how great a job it did. I spent less time on it than the all-in-PS image on the right. You will need to see it at 100% to see.

The only thing that seems worse on the DXO image is that there is some purple fringing around the basket on the bottom. I'm not sure of the cause or if this can be fixed.

Karl, the equivalent to Photoshop De-haze in DXO is "Clearview". It's another AI filter and it's pretty amazing and uses a slider for how much you use. I almost always set it lower than they have by default, but I use some in almost every image I do. It adds a lot of POP.

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ProDude Senior Member • Posts: 2,354
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

Sweet!

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ProDude Senior Member • Posts: 2,354
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

johncal wrote:

Karl, the equivalent to Photoshop De-haze in DXO is "Clearview". It's another AI filter and it's pretty amazing and uses a slider for how much you use. I almost always set it lower than they have by default, but I use some in almost every image I do. It adds a lot of POP.

I concur. The ClearView is one tool I am totally addicted to and use it (judiciously) just about ever time.

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xtam667 Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: Best NR software for High ISO on R5

David Franklin wrote:

xtam667 wrote:

Hoka Hey wrote:

Lots of NR software is on sale today, Cyber Monday.

What is your favorite noise reduction software for high ISO noise with the R5 and why?

I'm currently getting the best results from LR (actually ACR) and PS but it takes some time to get it right using a subject layer with lower NR, masking and a background layer with higher NR. So, I'd love to streamline this.

Thanks.

Almost the same here. I use one higher noise reduction layer above the original background layer and mask as needed, sometimes varying the opacity of the brush. I dial in a lower amount of noise reduction for the subject in LR before going to PS.

That is, up to now. I have just bought PhotoLab. With DeepPRIME I now see no need for this. I just send from LR to PhotoLab, apply corrections, lens sharpness and noise reduction there, and export back to LR for everything else. No more tedious masking. I now feel that if this is not good enough then it is not worth bothering with the picture in the first place. Maybe except if I captured a rare endemic bird at some insane ISO.

Here is a quick comparison between an LR only and a DeepPRIME processed shot. The original version is quite good already so this might not be the best example of what this stuff is capable of. The point is that is easier and faster than all previous Photoshop + various plugins I tried with at least similar if not superior results. The processing is actually not that fast, but you save time on the masking part, which is difficult to do seamlessly.

That is an amazing example of software "intelligence" in not seeming to affect the fine detail while doing a near perfect (maybe even too perfect) job of eliminating any noise in the image; I don't think I've ever seen anything that good before.

I do, however, have a question about workflow. I, like so many others, usually process my raws in Lightroom, then go on to Photoshop - and often camera raw within Photoshop - to complete my processing. Because I can't afford, especially when shooting jobs with hundreds or even thousands of images, to process them in something like DXO, I want to stick with Lightroom and Photoshop for functions other than this remarkable de-noising. So, how would I proceed? Do the raw conversion in Lightroom and send the Tiff or Jpeg to DXO and then back to Photoshop? Or is this denoising only able to be done to raw files, in which case, what is the product of the denoising, as far as the resulting file format? Tiff, Jpeg, DNG? If this results in DNG files, which I never have used, that I can further process in Lightroom, are they more difficult to use to achieve a proper color, brightness and contrast result than would be so for the native CR2 or CR3 format for which Adobe (supposedly) already has proper profiles?

Please let me know.

The simplest and most effective way in my view is to transfer the raw file to DXO, do the corrections and then export back a DNG to Lightroom. You can export back in TIFF or Jpeg as well, with different options on which corrections to apply. DNG behaves the exact same way as any other raw format in LR. As opposed to TIFF or Jpeg, you have the Kelvin scale for white balance. Copy/paste settings from CR2 or CR3 to DNG works just as expected. The only limitation that I found is that keywords are not preserved by DXO, only ratings and labels.

robgendreau Veteran Member • Posts: 8,526
Re: Best NR software for High ISO on R5

I used to own DxO, and moved away from it, but gave the new version a shot.

Still not to my taste; I prefer Topaz AI, Ps, and Lr Classic. I'm probably biased by the use of the masks and the workflow within Ps and the fact that Ps has more tools, but still. It might also because a lot of the shots I need this level of denoising on are also stacked or composited. In any case, nothing there to make me switch. But if I had no special needs and didn't have Topaz stuff already, it certainly would be in contention in addition to something else to organize images.

If one goes to buy it, just make sure your camera is supported; I assume the R5 is.

Hoka Hey
OP Hoka Hey Senior Member • Posts: 2,423
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

johncal wrote:

Thanks for explaining your process.

In DXO the first thing I do is the Geometric corrections in one exposure, and then copy and paste those settings to all the other 6 exposures. Then I adjust each image to specifically bring out the different areas such as windows, center room, and hall in this case. then everything is brought into Photoshop and cut and spliced from there.

Are you hand brushing in the layer masks to "splice" or are you automating that?

The typical image takes from 1/2 to 1 hour to complete, but I only spent 60 seconds in the room to take the shot.

Considering that the new DXO 4 is superior not just in NR to Photoshop but also sharpening

Better than using a layer with the High Pass Filter and the overlay blending mode with adjusted opacity?

and their "ClearView" which totally overtakes PS's dehaze. I stick to and IN DXO for all the processing. No need to go elsewhere as it's all in house.

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Joe

Karl_Guttag Contributing Member • Posts: 688
2003 D10 at 1600 ISO
1

I was amazed at what a good job DXO did with an RP photo. I decided to see what it would do with an old RAW photo from 2003. Unfortunately, DXO does not go back to the D30's CRW (from 2000), but it does have a profile for the D10's CRW.

DXO-Deep-Prime makes incredible improvements. Not only is the noise almost gone, it makes the details look sharper. Even the out of focus fence in the background looks better.  It makes me want to go through a bunch of old photos and redo them.

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Karl_Guttag Contributing Member • Posts: 688
2004 DXO on old 10D ISO 800 photo

I continue to be amazed by what a good job DXO does on both old and new photos. I did another comparison on an old 2004 10D photo shot at ISO800 and the results were amazing. It revealed detail that was buried in the noise. These are from the same RAW file and I tried to do similar things in PS and DXO. The PS looks like it was printed on a dot-matrix printer by comparison when viewed at 100%.

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xtam667 Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

Hoka Hey wrote:

johncal wrote:

Thanks for explaining your process.

In DXO the first thing I do is the Geometric corrections in one exposure, and then copy and paste those settings to all the other 6 exposures. Then I adjust each image to specifically bring out the different areas such as windows, center room, and hall in this case. then everything is brought into Photoshop and cut and spliced from there.

Are you hand brushing in the layer masks to "splice" or are you automating that?

The typical image takes from 1/2 to 1 hour to complete, but I only spent 60 seconds in the room to take the shot.

Considering that the new DXO 4 is superior not just in NR to Photoshop but also sharpening

Better than using a layer with the High Pass Filter and the overlay blending mode with adjusted opacity?

I used to do that but switched to Smart Sharpen as a Smart Filter over a copy of the base layer and masking as necessary. Smart Sharpen is pretty smart indeed... but Topaz AI Sharpen is smarter still so now that's my favourite for recovering less than ideally sharp pictures.  It can create detail out of thin air in Stabilize and Focus modes but in PS I just mask out those artifacts and the results are really good. I do not bother with all this if the picture is reasonably sharp, though. LR sharpening or DXO Lens Sharpen is good enough. DXO is better than LR at sharpening too but the difference is not as obvious compared to noise reduction performance.

Hoka Hey
OP Hoka Hey Senior Member • Posts: 2,423
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

xtam667 wrote:

Hoka Hey wrote:

johncal wrote:

Thanks for explaining your process.

In DXO the first thing I do is the Geometric corrections in one exposure, and then copy and paste those settings to all the other 6 exposures. Then I adjust each image to specifically bring out the different areas such as windows, center room, and hall in this case. then everything is brought into Photoshop and cut and spliced from there.

Are you hand brushing in the layer masks to "splice" or are you automating that?

The typical image takes from 1/2 to 1 hour to complete, but I only spent 60 seconds in the room to take the shot.

Considering that the new DXO 4 is superior not just in NR to Photoshop but also sharpening

Better than using a layer with the High Pass Filter and the overlay blending mode with adjusted opacity?

I used to do that but switched to Smart Sharpen as a Smart Filter over a copy of the base layer and masking as necessary. Smart Sharpen is pretty smart indeed... but Topaz AI Sharpen is smarter still so now that's my favourite for recovering less than ideally sharp pictures. It can create detail out of thin air in Stabilize and Focus modes but in PS I just mask out those artifacts and the results are really good. I do not bother with all this if the picture is reasonably sharp, though. LR sharpening or DXO Lens Sharpen is good enough. DXO is better than LR at sharpening too but the difference is not as obvious compared to noise reduction performance.

Thanks

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Joe

johncal Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

xtam667 wrote:

Hoka Hey wrote:

johncal wrote:

Thanks for explaining your process.

In DXO the first thing I do is the Geometric corrections in one exposure, and then copy and paste those settings to all the other 6 exposures. Then I adjust each image to specifically bring out the different areas such as windows, center room, and hall in this case. then everything is brought into Photoshop and cut and spliced from there.

Are you hand brushing in the layer masks to "splice" or are you automating that?

The typical image takes from 1/2 to 1 hour to complete, but I only spent 60 seconds in the room to take the shot.

Considering that the new DXO 4 is superior not just in NR to Photoshop but also sharpening

Better than using a layer with the High Pass Filter and the overlay blending mode with adjusted opacity?

I used to do that but switched to Smart Sharpen as a Smart Filter over a copy of the base layer and masking as necessary. Smart Sharpen is pretty smart indeed... but Topaz AI Sharpen is smarter still so now that's my favourite for recovering less than ideally sharp pictures. It can create detail out of thin air in Stabilize and Focus modes but in PS I just mask out those artifacts and the results are really good. I do not bother with all this if the picture is reasonably sharp, though. LR sharpening or DXO Lens Sharpen is good enough. DXO is better than LR at sharpening too but the difference is not as obvious compared to noise reduction performance.

Generally l do all my layer work by hand since one time I'm cutting out windows , and another time larger areas, so they all those types of things require a different feather with a different offset. Everything is totally dependent on the image. There is nothing that will automatically do exactly what I need. But that's the artistry in it, so I like that. It's what gives different people different styles.

Also, I usually do "global sharpening" in DXO using the micro-contrast tool. It doesn't actually sharpen, rather it increases the contrast at the very edge pixels where the image changes like along a door frame edge, a grille, or tree branches against a sky. So it really doesn't sharpen but looks sharper. It's an amazingly effective tool when used sparingly. That is how I get bird feathers to Pop. I'm just increasing the contrast along the edges of the barbs of the feathers. By doing this it looks sharper, but it doesn't make it look fake. Rarely, I will use P/S smart sharpen if I need it somewhere.

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johncal Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: 2004 DXO on old 10D ISO 800 photo

Karl_Guttag wrote:

I continue to be amazed by what a good job DXO does on both old and new photos. I did another comparison on an old 2004 10D photo shot at ISO800 and the results were amazing. It revealed detail that was buried in the noise. These are from the same RAW file and I tried to do similar things in PS and DXO. The PS looks like it was printed on a dot-matrix printer by comparison when viewed at 100%.

This is what I have been telling people about how good this is. It is amazing how it can resurrect older raw files. DXO says it works even better on the older cameras than the new.

I will say however, I always leave the Deep Prime right in the middle (default), anything more gets it too smooth and plasticky looking. The standard settings imparts just the perfect amount of very natural looking film grain. Which I love.

If you've been pushing the slider past half way, try backing off on it and check your results. Sometimes too much is not good.

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xtam667 Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

johncal wrote:

xtam667 wrote:

Hoka Hey wrote:

johncal wrote:

Thanks for explaining your process.

In DXO the first thing I do is the Geometric corrections in one exposure, and then copy and paste those settings to all the other 6 exposures. Then I adjust each image to specifically bring out the different areas such as windows, center room, and hall in this case. then everything is brought into Photoshop and cut and spliced from there.

Are you hand brushing in the layer masks to "splice" or are you automating that?

The typical image takes from 1/2 to 1 hour to complete, but I only spent 60 seconds in the room to take the shot.

Considering that the new DXO 4 is superior not just in NR to Photoshop but also sharpening

Better than using a layer with the High Pass Filter and the overlay blending mode with adjusted opacity?

I used to do that but switched to Smart Sharpen as a Smart Filter over a copy of the base layer and masking as necessary. Smart Sharpen is pretty smart indeed... but Topaz AI Sharpen is smarter still so now that's my favourite for recovering less than ideally sharp pictures. It can create detail out of thin air in Stabilize and Focus modes but in PS I just mask out those artifacts and the results are really good. I do not bother with all this if the picture is reasonably sharp, though. LR sharpening or DXO Lens Sharpen is good enough. DXO is better than LR at sharpening too but the difference is not as obvious compared to noise reduction performance.

Generally l do all my layer work by hand since one time I'm cutting out windows , and another time larger areas, so they all those types of things require a different feather with a different offset. Everything is totally dependent on the image. There is nothing that will automatically do exactly what I need. But that's the artistry in it, so I like that. It's what gives different people different styles.

Also, I usually do "global sharpening" in DXO using the micro-contrast tool. It doesn't actually sharpen, rather it increases the contrast at the very edge pixels where the image changes like along a door frame edge, a grille, or tree branches against a sky. So it really doesn't sharpen but looks sharper. It's an amazingly effective tool when used sparingly. That is how I get bird feathers to Pop. I'm just increasing the contrast along the edges of the barbs of the feathers. By doing this it looks sharper, but it doesn't make it look fake. Rarely, I will use P/S smart sharpen if I need it somewhere.

This is similar to LR's Texture adjustment. You're right, it should be used sparingly. With some lenses it is not needed at all. For example Zeiss primes, which are famous for high micro-contrast.

poppyjk
poppyjk Senior Member • Posts: 1,011
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

xtam667 wrote:

johncal wrote:

xtam667 wrote:

Hoka Hey wrote:

johncal wrote:

Thanks for explaining your process.

In DXO the first thing I do is the Geometric corrections in one exposure, and then copy and paste those settings to all the other 6 exposures. Then I adjust each image to specifically bring out the different areas such as windows, center room, and hall in this case. then everything is brought into Photoshop and cut and spliced from there.

Are you hand brushing in the layer masks to "splice" or are you automating that?

The typical image takes from 1/2 to 1 hour to complete, but I only spent 60 seconds in the room to take the shot.

Considering that the new DXO 4 is superior not just in NR to Photoshop but also sharpening

Better than using a layer with the High Pass Filter and the overlay blending mode with adjusted opacity?

I used to do that but switched to Smart Sharpen as a Smart Filter over a copy of the base layer and masking as necessary. Smart Sharpen is pretty smart indeed... but Topaz AI Sharpen is smarter still so now that's my favourite for recovering less than ideally sharp pictures. It can create detail out of thin air in Stabilize and Focus modes but in PS I just mask out those artifacts and the results are really good. I do not bother with all this if the picture is reasonably sharp, though. LR sharpening or DXO Lens Sharpen is good enough. DXO is better than LR at sharpening too but the difference is not as obvious compared to noise reduction performance.

Generally l do all my layer work by hand since one time I'm cutting out windows , and another time larger areas, so they all those types of things require a different feather with a different offset. Everything is totally dependent on the image. There is nothing that will automatically do exactly what I need. But that's the artistry in it, so I like that. It's what gives different people different styles.

Also, I usually do "global sharpening" in DXO using the micro-contrast tool. It doesn't actually sharpen, rather it increases the contrast at the very edge pixels where the image changes like along a door frame edge, a grille, or tree branches against a sky. So it really doesn't sharpen but looks sharper. It's an amazingly effective tool when used sparingly. That is how I get bird feathers to Pop. I'm just increasing the contrast along the edges of the barbs of the feathers. By doing this it looks sharper, but it doesn't make it look fake. Rarely, I will use P/S smart sharpen if I need it somewhere.

This is similar to LR's Texture adjustment. You're right, it should be used sparingly. With some lenses it is not needed at all. For example Zeiss primes, which are famous for high micro-contrast.

'Fine Contrast' that comes with the Film Pack in DxO is a much less heavy handed tool for this purpose than 'Micro Contrast'.

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Keith Cannataro Regular Member • Posts: 252
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

I purchased DXO Photo Lab 4 after reading this thread a few days ago.  Today I tried to use it, but a couple things are off and I don't understand.

- Photo shows up in Photo Lab and does not look as it did in Lightroom.  Colors are way off.  I only touched the Deep Prime for NR.

- Send the photo back to LR as a tiff and those wrong colors came with the new file

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johncal Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

Keith Cannataro wrote:

I purchased DXO Photo Lab 4 after reading this thread a few days ago. Today I tried to use it, but a couple things are off and I don't understand.

- Photo shows up in Photo Lab and does not look as it did in Lightroom. Colors are way off. I only touched the Deep Prime for NR.

- Send the photo back to LR as a tiff and those wrong colors came with the new file

Start with DXO. You don't need lightroom at all.

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Hoka Hey
OP Hoka Hey Senior Member • Posts: 2,423
Re: I Tried a "shootout" with DXO today

I must not be doing something right with DXO Photolab 4.

Here is a link to a RAW file:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vpee85kcclkmrlx/_R5_3177%20copy.CR3?dl=0

I would appreciate it if someone experienced with DXO could process this image and show me the best result that DXO can give.

Here is the image I get after processing through ACR and PS. I can't come close to the NR, particularly in the background, with DXO.

PP in ACR + PS

Thanks,

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Joe

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