Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages

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MHshooter
MHshooter Senior Member • Posts: 1,010
Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages
1

Did you know the lithium-ion battery is the worst of all tested battery formulas using lithium?  It has 1/10th the power density of metallic lithium batteries.  It is worse than sulfur-lithium, air-lithium.  A regular camera battery of 1100mah using metallic lithium would have 11,000mah capacity.  They've know  this for almost TEN years.  So why haven't they switched configurations?

gloaming Veteran Member • Posts: 4,253
Because we line up to purchase what they offer...time and time again
1

n/t

lilBuddha Veteran Member • Posts: 5,361
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages
22

MHshooter wrote:

Did you know the lithium-ion battery is the worst of all tested battery formulas using lithium? It has 1/10th the power density of metallic lithium batteries. It is worse than sulfur-lithium, air-lithium. A regular camera battery of 1100mah using metallic lithium would have 11,000mah capacity. They've know this for almost TEN years. So why haven't they switched configurations?

Wherever you are getting your info, it might be better to stop.

Neither Li-S or Li–air are commercially viable yet.

Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,657
Because they don't know how to make better
4

There are problems with each of the technologies you mention, mostly cycle life due to different failure mechanisms (i.e. dendrite growth).

Believe me, if someone has something better, it'll get to market in short order.

Also, your numbers are wrong. Lithium metal might give a factor of two, or a factor of five when combined with sulfur.  A factor of ten would require combining those with inorganic or solid state electrolytes.

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Lee Jay

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MHshooter
OP MHshooter Senior Member • Posts: 1,010
Re: Because they don't know how to make better

Lee Jay wrote:

There are problems with each of the technologies you mention, mostly cycle life due to different failure mechanisms (i.e. dendrite growth).

Believe me, if someone has something better, it'll get to market in short order.

Also, your numbers are wrong. Lithium metal might give a factor of two, or a factor of five when combined with sulfur. A factor of ten would require combining those with inorganic or solid state electrolytes.

Fascinating. Dendrites blamed when all it would take to prevent them being a problem would be an electron-permeable barrier between the cathode and anode of the battery. They must have SOME material that would work.

FrancoD Forum Pro • Posts: 14,038
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages
5

A small problem with that is that li Air was discovered in 1970 but as yet no one has managed to make it work in practice .

Li S was patented in 1960 but has only been used in some industrial applications, nothing "portabe" has come out so far.

However the Monash University in Melbourne has been working on that , however the smallest size discussed so far is for a mobile phone, larger than the type you need in a camera.

Anyway that is also not available still.

no there is no conspiracy here , the product hasn't been made yet but not for the lack of trying.

https://petapixel.com/2020/01/06/new-lithium-sulfur-battery-could-quadruple-camera-battery-life/

lilBuddha Veteran Member • Posts: 5,361
Re: Because they don't know how to make better
27

MHshooter wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

There are problems with each of the technologies you mention, mostly cycle life due to different failure mechanisms (i.e. dendrite growth).

Believe me, if someone has something better, it'll get to market in short order.

Also, your numbers are wrong. Lithium metal might give a factor of two, or a factor of five when combined with sulfur. A factor of ten would require combining those with inorganic or solid state electrolytes.

Fascinating. Dendrites blamed when all it would take to prevent them being a problem would be an electron-permeable barrier between the cathode and anode of the battery. They must have SOME material that would work.

If only a forum expert would quit his job/come out of retirement and go help those poor buggers who cannot understanding their own industry

FrancoD Forum Pro • Posts: 14,038
Re: Because they don't know how to make better
3

lilBuddha wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

There are problems with each of the technologies you mention, mostly cycle life due to different failure mechanisms (i.e. dendrite growth).

Believe me, if someone has something better, it'll get to market in short order.

Also, your numbers are wrong. Lithium metal might give a factor of two, or a factor of five when combined with sulfur. A factor of ten would require combining those with inorganic or solid state electrolytes.

Fascinating. Dendrites blamed when all it would take to prevent them being a problem would be an electron-permeable barrier between the cathode and anode of the battery. They must have SOME material that would work.

If only a forum expert would quit his job/come out of retirement and go help those poor buggers who cannot understanding their own industry

Every hobby has those experts making similar discoveries .

Funny thing is they almost *never invest their own money to make it happen.

*In a much lower end field where DIY is possible, I often see folk that can do it "better/cheaper"  only to disappear when their version is "90%" ready. Yes that extra 10% takes a long time to be worked out or they finaly discover that if it takes 10 hours to make a $60 product you are not going to be in business for very long.

Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,657
Re: Because they don't know how to make better
1

MHshooter wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

There are problems with each of the technologies you mention, mostly cycle life due to different failure mechanisms (i.e. dendrite growth).

Believe me, if someone has something better, it'll get to market in short order.

Also, your numbers are wrong. Lithium metal might give a factor of two, or a factor of five when combined with sulfur. A factor of ten would require combining those with inorganic or solid state electrolytes.

Fascinating. Dendrites blamed when all it would take to prevent them being a problem would be an electron-permeable barrier between the cathode and anode of the battery. They must have SOME material that would work.

Billions of dollars are being spent on this and related problems. Many solutions have been proposed and some have been lab tested. None  are in the market yet.

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CameraCarl Veteran Member • Posts: 7,473
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages
1

If advanced battery technology were (1) safe, (2) affordable for the consumer, (3) economically viable to manufacture, (4) environmentally viable and (5) compact enough for cameras and cell phones, don't you think that somebody wouldn't have become a billionaire figuring out a way to introduce them by now? Battery technology has got to be one of the most hotly competitive areas of technology development considering the demand for everything from hearing aids to wireless earphones to cell phones to computers to electric cars, etc., etc. If these technologies aren't on the shelves today, there has to be a solid reason for it.  It certainly isn't because there is a secret cabal keeping the technology out of the hands of consumers.

sybersitizen Forum Pro • Posts: 19,030
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages
5

MHshooter wrote:

... why haven't they switched configurations?

Be patient. They're planning to roll out those super batteries with cameras that have liquid lenses and curved sensors.

Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,657
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages
1

FrancoD wrote:

Li S was patented in 1960 but has only been used in some industrial applications, nothing "portabe" has come out so far.

Well....

https://sionpower.com/2014/sion-powers-lithium-sulfur-batteries-power-high-altitude-pseudo-satellite-flight/

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BrentSchumer
BrentSchumer Senior Member • Posts: 3,334
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages

Because none of those potential technologies have stabilized into something usable by consumers.  It's like asking "why am I paying so much for power when we have fusion?"

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FrancoD Forum Pro • Posts: 14,038
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages

Lee Jay wrote:

FrancoD wrote:

Li S was patented in 1960 but has only been used in some industrial applications, nothing "portabe" has come out so far.

Well....

https://sionpower.com/2014/sion-powers-lithium-sulfur-batteries-power-high-altitude-pseudo-satellite-flight/

Does that fit inside a camera ?

Sion have now switched to Lithium Metal cells, as far as I can see the smallest they have is this one

Described as :

Individual Licerion cells, with dimensions of 10 cm x 10 cm x 1 cm, have a capacity of 20 Ah and offer the highest combination of energy density and specific energy available.

Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,657
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages
1

FrancoD wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

FrancoD wrote:

Li S was patented in 1960 but has only been used in some industrial applications, nothing "portabe" has come out so far.

Well....

https://sionpower.com/2014/sion-powers-lithium-sulfur-batteries-power-high-altitude-pseudo-satellite-flight/

Does that fit inside a camera ?

I was only pointing out that it was portable.

But, yes, they were small enough.

Sion have now switched to Lithium Metal cells, as far as I can see the smallest they have is this one

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Lee Jay

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FrancoD Forum Pro • Posts: 14,038
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages

Lee Jay wrote:

FrancoD wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

FrancoD wrote:

Li S was patented in 1960 but has only been used in some industrial applications, nothing "portabe" has come out so far.

Well....

https://sionpower.com/2014/sion-powers-lithium-sulfur-batteries-power-high-altitude-pseudo-satellite-flight/

Does that fit inside a camera ?

I was only pointing out that it was portable.

But, yes, they were small enough.

Sion have now switched to Lithium Metal cells, as far as I can see the smallest they have is this one

That plane had 16 kg of those batteries. They must have had a lot of individual cells all wired up together. (the Zephyr 8 has 24 kg)*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_Zephyr

Just for curiosity , you did not think that I would check , did you ?

MHshooter
OP MHshooter Senior Member • Posts: 1,010
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages

FrancoD wrote:

A small problem with that is that li Air was discovered in 1970 but as yet no one has managed to make it work in practice .

Li S was patented in 1960 but has only been used in some industrial applications, nothing "portabe" has come out so far.

However the Monash University in Melbourne has been working on that , however the smallest size discussed so far is for a mobile phone, larger than the type you need in a camera.

Anyway that is also not available still.

no there is no conspiracy here , the product hasn't been made yet but not for the lack of trying.

https://petapixel.com/2020/01/06/new-lithium-sulfur-battery-could-quadruple-camera-battery-life/

They'll prove dark matter exists before batteries get any measurably better.

GossCTP Veteran Member • Posts: 5,474
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages
6

MHshooter wrote:

Did you know the lithium-ion battery is the worst of all tested battery formulas using lithium? It has 1/10th the power density of metallic lithium batteries. It is worse than sulfur-lithium, air-lithium. A regular camera battery of 1100mah using metallic lithium would have 11,000mah capacity. They've know this for almost TEN years. So why haven't they switched configurations?

Lead with a false statement in the form of a question and then imply a conspiracy in closing.

If they released such technology tomorrow what would you do? Would it change your life that you wouldn't need to charge your camera for two weeks? Or would you be less happy because you wouldn't have something to gripe about that cannot possible be fixed because it simply isn't true?

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Tom_N Forum Pro • Posts: 18,544
Re: Why battery makers keep us in the Dark Ages
4

GossCTP wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

Did you know the lithium-ion battery is the worst of all tested battery formulas using lithium? It has 1/10th the power density of metallic lithium batteries. It is worse than sulfur-lithium, air-lithium. A regular camera battery of 1100mah using metallic lithium would have 11,000mah capacity. They've know this for almost TEN years. So why haven't they switched configurations?

Lead with a false statement in the form of a question and then imply a conspiracy in closing.

If they released such technology tomorrow what would you do? Would it change your life that you wouldn't need to charge your camera for two weeks? Or would you be less happy because you wouldn't have something to gripe about that cannot possible be fixed because it simply isn't true?

My manual-focus film SLR had batteries that would last for years – because all they had to do was to power the shutter and light meter.  You still had to stop and change the film roll at least once every 38 pictures (36-picture roll + getting maybe 2 extra ones on). That was something best done in a dark place, or at least, not in direct sunlight.

Now we have cameras that can take hundreds of pictures before you need to change the battery or memory card – and you can do the change in full sunlight with no risk of losing photos.  Yet people complain that camera batteries aren't good enough?!?

Fotoni Contributing Member • Posts: 952
It would had happened, if it would be easy

Electrical car market would SKYROCKET even if there would be just twice more capacity. Ten times would be INSANE, create MADNESS and kill all gasoline engines in one day.

Recharge cycles can be increased even today by not charging to the 100%. Every 5% drop will double the cycles until battery has 80% of its maximum capacity. Even after that it is not useless, but just less total capacity.

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