Planetary resolution with P900/P950/P1000

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OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Senior Member • Posts: 7,444
Planetary resolution with P900/P950/P1000
3

I know earlier in the year I asked you general questions about what could be visible at various focal lengths but I wanted to get more specific.

My question is can all three of these be captured with a superzoom camera at 2,000mm EFL (Nikon P900/950.)

1) Cassini's Division in Saturn's Rings

2) Great Red Spot on Jupiter

3) Martian Polar Ice Cap on Mars

I think the answer is yes, they can be captured (barely) with the P900/950 at 2,000mm EFL but much more easily captured (NASA like) with the longer zoom at 3,000mm EFL with the P1000.

Here is what I've found in images with the P900/950:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... nd_transit),_Io,_Europa,_and_Callisto,_taken_with_Nikon_P900_-_2020-07-24.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Jupiter_and_Red_Spot%2C_Ganymede_%28and_transit%29%2C_Io%2C_Europa%2C_and_Callisto%2C_taken_with_Nikon_P900_-_2020-07-24.jpg

click to expand each

This picture was taken with the P900 and shows Jupiter and it's main moons, you can see the Great Red Spot at the lower right and a shadow of Ganymede, the largest moon, on Jupiter.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4029136

Further down in the thread my favorite Saturn images taken with the P900 from Aisse and MarioV (his was a single image unstacked, and you can make out Cassini's Division barely, but it's there.) Aisse's images of Jupiter and Saturn show the Cassini Division and Great Red Spot much more clearly (like NASA photos) but both can be captured with the P900/950 also. Can this be backed up by mathematical calculations that prove you can see all three at 2,000mm EFL on those cameras?

And here is one I found with the polar ice cap on Mars.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3975229

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57390620

Mario V also includes images of Jupiter and Saturn there.

https://cochinblogs-hobby.blogspot.com/2016/04/mars-in-april-2016-nikon-p900-at-max.html

Very descriptive features on Mars that are captured.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4472826

So it looks like at a minimum you need a 2000mm EFL to see the Cassini Division on Saturn's rings, the Great Red Spot on Jupiter and the Martian Polar Ice caps, but all are much more clearly visible on the P1000 at full zoom.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64440618

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Jupiter_and_Red_Spot%2C_Ganymede_%28and_transit%29%2C_Io%2C_Europa%2C_and_Callisto%2C_taken_with_Nikon_P900_-_2020-07-24.jpg

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4029136

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4472823

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4182798

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4275373

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64393206

https://jzholloway.wordpress.com/2020/09/06/moon-mars-conjunction/

https://cochinblogs-hobby.blogspot.com/2016/04/mars-in-april-2016-nikon-p900-at-max.html

https://cochinblogs-hobby.blogspot.com/2016/04/mars-in-april-2016-nikon-p900-at-max.html

Compare this to Aisse's output of Jupiter and Saturn with the P1000

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4399770

Below are some fantastic images of Mars taken with the P1000

http://tool-box.info/blog/archives/3106-Close-approach-of-Mars-in-2020.html

You can see the GRS and Cassini Division and the Martian Polar Ice Cap in the P900 shots but the P1000 is a major step up.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4521388#forum-post-64398986

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
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LG72
LG72 Forum Member • Posts: 55
Re: Planetary resolution with P900/P950/P1000
4

Hi OTM,

I find your discussion really interesting and thank you for sharing all these useful links.

I add my small contribution with a collage of my last Nikon P1000 shots (planets, Moon and Sun sposts).

For the Moon  I like to use the bracketing tecnique (average of at least 70 raw pictures + PP).

For planets: 4k video (M Video Mode) at 125 ISO with different shutter speeds. Then I use Pipp and registax for the Post production.

Nikon P1000

Bye

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LG72

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Augustin Man
Augustin Man Forum Pro • Posts: 10,729
Re: Planetary resolution with P900/P950/P1000
1

It's a very impressive contribution!

Congratulations and thank you for sharing,

Augustin

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OutsideTheMatrix
OP OutsideTheMatrix Senior Member • Posts: 7,444
Re: Planetary resolution with P900/P950/P1000

Augustin Man wrote:

It's a very impressive contribution!

Congratulations and thank you for sharing,

Augustin

Yes this would be a great thread to add such pics to, to put them all in one place!

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Olympus C-7070 Wide Zoom Fujifilm FinePix HS20 EXR Fujifilm FinePix HS50 EXR Fujifilm FinePix S9900W Nikon Coolpix P900 +9 more
OutsideTheMatrix
OP OutsideTheMatrix Senior Member • Posts: 7,444
Re: Planetary resolution with P900/P950/P1000

Thats amazing and I think I linked to one of your threads because I found your images to be very detailed.  How long are the videos that you do?  I would think if you do a 10 min video you get 30*60*10=18,000 images over 10 min?  How do you pick which ones to stack?

I also have another question I have been wondering about.  And I suspect it is the same with the P900/P950 (correct me if I'm wrong please)....when using video mode, whether it's 4K30 or 1080P60, is the whole sensor used or just the actual pixels that make up the movie resolution (a crop from the center of the sensor in other words.)  In which case I would think either 4K30 or 1080P60 would be fine since the image scale would be the same since all planets are too small to use up more than 1080 pixels anyway?  If this is the case and the planets take up the same number of pixels regardless of whether you use 4K or 1080P, 1080P might be a little better because of the higher frame rate (60 vs 30).

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Olympus C-7070 Wide Zoom Fujifilm FinePix HS20 EXR Fujifilm FinePix HS50 EXR Fujifilm FinePix S9900W Nikon Coolpix P900 +9 more
OutsideTheMatrix
OP OutsideTheMatrix Senior Member • Posts: 7,444
Re: Planetary resolution with P900/P950/P1000

Augustin Man wrote:

It's a very impressive contribution!

Congratulations and thank you for sharing,

Augustin

Augustin please allow me to ask you the same question:

when using video mode, whether it's 4K30 or 1080P60, is the whole sensor used or just the actual pixels that make up the movie resolution (a crop from the center of the sensor in other words.) In which case I would think either 4K30 or 1080P60 would be fine since the image scale would be the same since all planets are too small to use up more than 1080 pixels anyway? If this is the case and the planets take up the same number of pixels regardless of whether you use 4K or 1080P, 1080P might be a little better because of the higher frame rate (60 vs 30). I think you still have your P900 so if you could see how movie mode works on it, a crop from the center of the sensor would render the same image scale as 4K on the P950 at the same focal length.  So in other words 1080P should actually give a much narrower FOV than taking a picture at the same focal length.

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
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OutsideTheMatrix
OP OutsideTheMatrix Senior Member • Posts: 7,444
Re: Planetary resolution with P900/P950/P1000

I forgot to ask about your excellent planetary images which all three clearly show the details I was interested in..... what is the slowest shutter speed you would use with each of these three planets.... 1/30 sec?  Since you are doing 4K video at 30 fps that should be the slowest shutter speed you can use.

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Olympus C-7070 Wide Zoom Fujifilm FinePix HS20 EXR Fujifilm FinePix HS50 EXR Fujifilm FinePix S9900W Nikon Coolpix P900 +9 more
OutsideTheMatrix
OP OutsideTheMatrix Senior Member • Posts: 7,444
Re: math back up

I visited various sites and found figures for all three features. It is also interesting to note that Cassini's division was discovered by Cassini using a telescope with a 2.5" objective diameter at 90x magnification. The P900/950 lens has a 2.16" objective diameter and has 83x magnification. That is a pretty close match! Of course Cassini made his discovery in 1675 so this is almost 350 years later lol.

Cassini's division is 3000 miles wide

Great Red Spot is 10,000 miles wide

The Northern Martian Polar Ice Cap is 700 miles wide

The Southern Martian Polar Ice Cap is 250 miles wide.

At all of their closest approaches, Saturn is 2x farther than Jupiter and Mars is 22x closer than Saturn.

The listed angular diameter of Cassini's Division at closest approach is 0.75" (seconds of arc.)

It is about 2800x smaller than the full moon. Since the full moon also covers about 2800 pixels that means the 0.75" seconds of arc diameter of Cassini's division should cover almost exactly 1 pixel on the P900/950 at 2000mm EFL (no wonder Dynamic Fine Zoom is needed to give it more clarity- and I wonder if stacking would add to clarity.)

Based on the above numbers, Cassini's Division is clearly the smallest in terms of what it looks like from Earth. Jupiter's GRS looks about 7x wider (3.5x larger AND 2x closer) and Mars' Northern Polar Ice Cap looks 5.5x wider (22x closer makes up for being 4x smaller) while the Martian Southern Polar Ice Cap looks 2x wider (22x closer makes up for being 12x smaller).

I did some calculations using the diameter of the Martian Polar Ice Caps (north - 700 mile diameter, south - 250 mile diameter) and the GRS (10,000 mile diameter) using closest approaches of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn and setting the Cassini Division as the reference point at 3,000 miles wide and 0.75".....at the closest approach of Saturn, if the GRS was located there it would be 5,000 miles wide (using 2x closest approach distance of Saturn vs Jupiter).... so the GRS is 3.5x larger and 2x closer (which means it should have an angular diameter of 7x that of the Cassini Division when viewed from Earth) Mars Northern Polar Ice Cap although only 700 miles wide, Mars is 22x closer at both their closest approaches but only 4x smaller.....in the case of the Southern Polar Ice Cap it is 12x smaller. Even using the smaller ice cap numbers, it should have about twice the angular diameter of Cassini's Division when viewed from Earth and with the Northern Polar Ice Cap it's more like 5.5x the angular diameter of the Cassini Division.

So, in summary, if the maximum angular diameter of Cassini's division is 0.75" then Mars' Southern Polar Ice Cap is about 1.5" and the Mars' Northern Polar Ice Cap is 4" and the GRS on Jupiter is 5.25" Cassini's Division is clearly the most difficult to resolve so if it can be resolved so can the other features. If we set the width on our pictures of Cassini's Division at 1 pixel at Saturn's closest approach (at 2000mm EFL), then Mars' Southern Polar Ice Cap is 2 pixels wide and Mars' Northern Polar Ice Cap is 5.5 pixels wide and the Great Red Spot on Jupiter is 7 pixels wide at their respective closest approaches.

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Olympus C-7070 Wide Zoom Fujifilm FinePix HS20 EXR Fujifilm FinePix HS50 EXR Fujifilm FinePix S9900W Nikon Coolpix P900 +9 more
OutsideTheMatrix
OP OutsideTheMatrix Senior Member • Posts: 7,444
Re: rechecked from the sensor side

I also performed a different calculation to recheck my earlier ones coming from the camera sensor side of things....I looked up the largest the full moon can be and it's 34.1 arc min and the EFL that fills the vertical FOV of a 4:3 sensor with the full moon of that angular diameter is 2,560mm. Since my camera has an EFL of 2,000mm it has 1.28x less zoom. Multiply that 1.28x times 34.1 to get the vertical FOV in arc min at 2000mm EFL and we get 43.65 arc min. Multiply that by 60 and we get 2619 arc seconds. The sensor's vertical dimension consists of 3456 pixels. 2619/3456 gives us 0.7578 arc sec per pixel and since the maximum arc sec width of Cassini's Division at closest approach is 0.75 arc sec, this gives us a maximum 1 pixel width for Cassini's Division at 2000mm EFL on the P900/950- I guess I was right!

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Olympus C-7070 Wide Zoom Fujifilm FinePix HS20 EXR Fujifilm FinePix HS50 EXR Fujifilm FinePix S9900W Nikon Coolpix P900 +9 more
LG72
LG72 Forum Member • Posts: 55
Re: Planetary resolution with P900/P950/P1000
1

Hi,

Thank you

bye

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LG72

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