Apple ProRaw (WOW)

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BlueCosmo5050
BlueCosmo5050 Senior Member • Posts: 1,660
Apple ProRaw (WOW)
2

I spent tonight downloading the Beta so I could use ProRaw, I did not expect this. It is INCREDIBLE. Using night mode together with RAW, with no flash in a near black room there seems to be absolutely no noise in the photo. It looks like it's shot at ISO 100 from a DSLR.

I don't know how traditional camera companies are going to compete with this. I don't see them creating processors and having a whole operating system behind them. They work by the laws of physics but apple has figured out how to do it with raw computer power.

IMO the PRORAW feature sets it apart from compact camera's like the RX-100. That camera doesn't look as clean as this.

I can't wait to try it out in the day time. I was already impressed before I tried proraw, with the 10 bit HDR video.

It feels like it has more dynamic range than my pro camera. I read an article saying it had more than the Canon R5 at a little over 14 stops.

5 years from now they will have figured out everything with software and I can't imagine ever needing a large camera again.

Honestly I would choose this iPhone over my 5D Mark IV in every case except for where I felt like I needed 30 megapixels, professional flash, or extreme shallow depth of field. But at some point these iPhones are going to be 30 Megapixels, there are already devices allowing them to control flash's, and of course the shallow depth of field software is looking more and more realistic as we go.

So nice that this Holiday season I won't have to have a Canon 5D Mark IV on a Ronin S gimbal just to get some decent footage. Heck, one doesn't even need a gimbal with this phone the stabilization is insane.

I haven't been this excited about a camera since my first full frame camera. This changes photography and videography for me for good.

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Groot Regular Member • Posts: 266
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
3

Nice to see Apple catching up with Android phones

Jostian
Jostian Veteran Member • Posts: 4,545
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)

Yip sounds promising, can't wait to see comparisons between std RAW and proRAW, if it's as good as the hype it'll give iPhones an edge that they don't have with SOOC JPEGs. Exciting times.

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vessk0 New Member • Posts: 14
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
2

We, the Android users, have been enjoying the same stacked RAW files for 5 years now. Haha

GCAM dngs are way better than these trash ProRaw junk files, at least the ones I've checked already.

Pstmstr Contributing Member • Posts: 857
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
1

BlueCosmo5050 wrote:

I spent tonight downloading the Beta so I could use ProRaw, I did not expect this. It is INCREDIBLE. Using night mode together with RAW, with no flash in a near black room there seems to be absolutely no noise in the photo. It looks like it's shot at ISO 100 from a DSLR.

I don't know how traditional camera companies are going to compete with this. I don't see them creating processors and having a whole operating system behind them. They work by the laws of physics but apple has figured out how to do it with raw computer power.

IMO the PRORAW feature sets it apart from compact camera's like the RX-100. That camera doesn't look as clean as this.

I can't wait to try it out in the day time. I was already impressed before I tried proraw, with the 10 bit HDR video.

It feels like it has more dynamic range than my pro camera. I read an article saying it had more than the Canon R5 at a little over 14 stops.

5 years from now they will have figured out everything with software and I can't imagine ever needing a large camera again.

Honestly I would choose this iPhone over my 5D Mark IV in every case except for where I felt like I needed 30 megapixels, professional flash, or extreme shallow depth of field. But at some point these iPhones are going to be 30 Megapixels, there are already devices allowing them to control flash's, and of course the shallow depth of field software is looking more and more realistic as we go.

So nice that this Holiday season I won't have to have a Canon 5D Mark IV on a Ronin S gimbal just to get some decent footage. Heck, one doesn't even need a gimbal with this phone the stabilization is insane.

I haven't been this excited about a camera since my first full frame camera. This changes photography and videography for me for good.

post some examples, ignore the Android fanboys   Some of them never have anything of value to add but just can’t help themselves when it comes to trashing Apple.  ProRaw has some real potential  I took these 2 shots in very dim lighting, one with ProRaw and one without  both handheld in my shaky hands

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vv50
vv50 Contributing Member • Posts: 760
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
1

vessk0 wrote:

We, the Android users, have been enjoying the same stacked RAW files for 5 years now. Haha

computational photography is 5 years maybe, but computational raw is closer to 2 years

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7071599438/lead-engineer-for-computational-imaging-on-pixel-devices-leaves-google

and letting the phone do the work will most likely do a better job than doing it yourself, as from the creator's own mouth:

"The JPEGs from the Pixel camera may actually be more detailed than the DNGs in some cases," - Marc Levoy

I2K4
I2K4 Senior Member • Posts: 1,232
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
2

vessk0 wrote:

We, the Android users, have been enjoying the same stacked RAW files for 5 years now. Haha

GCAM dngs are way better than these trash ProRaw junk files, at least the ones I've checked already.

Reading the Google AI Blog analytical long forms on Pixels and the recent Halide long form on the iPhone 12 Pro Max, it appears that Apple is doing something like Pixel Visual Core, i.e. algorithmically moving the sensor during the HDR process to overwrite noise more effectively - it's hardware tweaking not available via GCam with other Android devices. I use Gcam(s) but have never seen output comparisons with full Pixel cameras, and Apple would be in the mix now. (I was surprised to see a "Pixel 5" which is more like a Pixel 4.1 this year, with Mark Levoy and much of the Pixel dev team moving on a few months ago, it looks like a last hurrah - would expect more hardware changes in the next edition.)

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Groot Regular Member • Posts: 266
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
4

"Android fanboys".. OK , please explain to me how it is different gcam / google camera RAW?

Maybe I'm wrong , but as far as I know this feature already exists on Android phones for a while.

Pstmstr Contributing Member • Posts: 857
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
3

Groot wrote:

"Android fanboys".. OK , please explain to me how it is different gcam / google camera RAW?

Maybe I'm wrong , but as far as I know this feature already exists on Android phones for a while.

I couldn’t care less what the similarities are or not. I will say that I was thinking of trying a Pixel 5 just as I have other Android devices over the years but was underwhelmed with the devices.  What I think is bs every time someone posts about an Apple feature those who have never used it it want to chime in about why they think Apple sucks. Apple is hardly ever first to market with most features but they tend to get it right when they do. Lots of great smartphones out these days and some have better features than others. It seems no one can discuss Apple features on this forum without someone feeling the need to run off at the keyboard gushing about what some other phone can do. Most of us will buy the phone that we want with our money. Some are opposed to any Apple product for any reason. Some can’t help themselves with their impulse to trash Apple every chance they get.  Why can’t people just discuss their actual use of the feature brought up by the OP?

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vessk0 New Member • Posts: 14
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
1

The problem is that the Apple ones are heavily compressed with lots of noise reduction and basically they are NOT RAWs...

Groot Regular Member • Posts: 266
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
1

Pstmstr wrote:

Groot wrote:

"Android fanboys".. OK , please explain to me how it is different gcam / google camera RAW?

Maybe I'm wrong , but as far as I know this feature already exists on Android phones for a while.

I couldn’t care less what the similarities are or not. I will say that I was thinking of trying a Pixel 5 just as I have other Android devices over the years but was underwhelmed with the devices. What I think is bs every time someone posts about an Apple feature those who have never used it it want to chime in about why they think Apple sucks. Apple is hardly ever first to market with most features but they tend to get it right when they do. Lots of great smartphones out these days and some have better features than others. It seems no one can discuss Apple features on this forum without someone feeling the need to run off at the keyboard gushing about what some other phone can do. Most of us will buy the phone that we want with our money. Some are opposed to any Apple product for any reason. Some can’t help themselves with their impulse to trash Apple every chance they get. Why can’t people just discuss their actual use of the feature brought up by the OP?

I somewhat agree with you.   
I do think that most iOS users are clueless about the market though.  That's why you see posts of people "announcing" new features while the rest of us are like "Yes, we know".

Personally, I did own few iPhones and still own an iPad and I sincerely hate (almost)everything about this company.  I will never own anything Apple again.  But that's me and it's not related to the subject.
Regarding this specific post,  I think it is a cool feature and it's nice that Apple has it too now.

Groot Regular Member • Posts: 266
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)

vessk0 wrote:

The problem is that the Apple ones are heavily compressed with lots of noise reduction and basically they are NOT RAWs...

Yes, NR is the enemy.
We want the dynamic range and the light,  I don't see the reason for applying any NR on RAW.. what's the point then?
If they must, it should be minimal. 
Is it really noticeable on the ProRAW?

jst13 Regular Member • Posts: 263
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)

BlueCosmo5050 wrote:

I spent tonight downloading the Beta so I could use ProRaw, I did not expect this. It is INCREDIBLE. Using night mode together with RAW, with no flash in a near black room there seems to be absolutely no noise in the photo. It looks like it's shot at ISO 100 from a DSLR.

I don't know how traditional camera companies are going to compete with this. I don't see them creating processors and having a whole operating system behind them. They work by the laws of physics but apple has figured out how to do it with raw computer power.

IMO the PRORAW feature sets it apart from compact camera's like the RX-100. That camera doesn't look as clean as this.

I can't wait to try it out in the day time. I was already impressed before I tried proraw, with the 10 bit HDR video.

It feels like it has more dynamic range than my pro camera. I read an article saying it had more than the Canon R5 at a little over 14 stops.

5 years from now they will have figured out everything with software and I can't imagine ever needing a large camera again.

Honestly I would choose this iPhone over my 5D Mark IV in every case except for where I felt like I needed 30 megapixels, professional flash, or extreme shallow depth of field. But at some point these iPhones are going to be 30 Megapixels, there are already devices allowing them to control flash's, and of course the shallow depth of field software is looking more and more realistic as we go.

So nice that this Holiday season I won't have to have a Canon 5D Mark IV on a Ronin S gimbal just to get some decent footage. Heck, one doesn't even need a gimbal with this phone the stabilization is insane.

I haven't been this excited about a camera since my first full frame camera. This changes photography and videography for me for good.

Absolut agreed. Apple proraw is a game changer.....and dont listen to the android users.....yes they have RAW as iphones with third apps ...but the combined AI plus dng output is unique and the quality is as you said outstanding especially with the 12 pro max and the wide 26mm lens

juergen

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Groot Regular Member • Posts: 266
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)

jst13 wrote:

BlueCosmo5050 wrote:

I spent tonight downloading the Beta so I could use ProRaw, I did not expect this. It is INCREDIBLE. Using night mode together with RAW, with no flash in a near black room there seems to be absolutely no noise in the photo. It looks like it's shot at ISO 100 from a DSLR.

I don't know how traditional camera companies are going to compete with this. I don't see them creating processors and having a whole operating system behind them. They work by the laws of physics but apple has figured out how to do it with raw computer power.

IMO the PRORAW feature sets it apart from compact camera's like the RX-100. That camera doesn't look as clean as this.

I can't wait to try it out in the day time. I was already impressed before I tried proraw, with the 10 bit HDR video.

It feels like it has more dynamic range than my pro camera. I read an article saying it had more than the Canon R5 at a little over 14 stops.

5 years from now they will have figured out everything with software and I can't imagine ever needing a large camera again.

Honestly I would choose this iPhone over my 5D Mark IV in every case except for where I felt like I needed 30 megapixels, professional flash, or extreme shallow depth of field. But at some point these iPhones are going to be 30 Megapixels, there are already devices allowing them to control flash's, and of course the shallow depth of field software is looking more and more realistic as we go.

So nice that this Holiday season I won't have to have a Canon 5D Mark IV on a Ronin S gimbal just to get some decent footage. Heck, one doesn't even need a gimbal with this phone the stabilization is insane.

I haven't been this excited about a camera since my first full frame camera. This changes photography and videography for me for good.

Absolut agreed. Apple proraw is a game changer.....and dont listen to the android users.....yes they have RAW as iphones with third apps ...but the combined AI plus dng output is unique and the quality is as you said outstanding especially with the 12 pro max and the wide 26mm lens

juergen

"but the combined AI plus dng output is unique"
We have that on Android too.. for around 2 years now.

BlueCosmo5050
OP BlueCosmo5050 Senior Member • Posts: 1,660
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
2

Groot wrote:

vessk0 wrote:

The problem is that the Apple ones are heavily compressed with lots of noise reduction and basically they are NOT RAWs...

Yes, NR is the enemy.
We want the dynamic range and the light, I don't see the reason for applying any NR on RAW.. what's the point then?
If they must, it should be minimal.
Is it really noticeable on the ProRAW?

Well, from what Im experiencing I'm not getting any noise reduction or sharpness, at least with the app I'm using. Which is nice because the .jpegs were too sharp when using deep fusion. If I edit in the photos app it will still be there.... I think, doing more test today.

It still uses the deep fusion, night mode, HDR, etc in raw. Which is nice.

To the other people, I am aware of what Android has and I'm aware of iPhones I've had before that I'd shoot RAW with a different app like pro cam. The difference now is we can use deep fusion, night mode, and still have the processing that apple is good at, much like the JPEG but it's not baked in. Giving us ProRaw.

I mean I shot a shot in almost pure darkness last night in night mode, it had ZERO noise, and still had a ton of dynamic range. I can't do that with a DSLR.

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Jostian
Jostian Veteran Member • Posts: 4,545
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)

BlueCosmo5050 wrote:

Groot wrote:

vessk0 wrote:

The problem is that the Apple ones are heavily compressed with lots of noise reduction and basically they are NOT RAWs...

Yes, NR is the enemy.
We want the dynamic range and the light, I don't see the reason for applying any NR on RAW.. what's the point then?
If they must, it should be minimal.
Is it really noticeable on the ProRAW?

Well, from what Im experiencing I'm not getting any noise reduction or sharpness, at least with the app I'm using. Which is nice because the .jpegs were too sharp when using deep fusion. If I edit in the photos app it will still be there.... I think, doing more test today.

It still uses the deep fusion, night mode, HDR, etc in raw. Which is nice.

To the other people, I am aware of what Android has and I'm aware of iPhones I've had before that I'd shoot RAW with a different app like pro cam. The difference now is we can use deep fusion, night mode, and still have the processing that apple is good at, much like the JPEG but it's not baked in.

But thats the issue, Apple's jpeg processing is not great as shown in quite a few threads recently and GSMArenas review, So I'd rather see what one can get from ProRAW in a 3rd party application, cos Apples RAW have always been really good.

Giving us ProRaw.

I mean I shot a shot in almost pure darkness last night in night mode, it had ZERO noise, and still had a ton of dynamic range. I can't do that with a DSLR.

keen to see it.

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The Davinator
The Davinator Forum Pro • Posts: 24,581
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
5

Can you post the example shot in question where the night photo looks like base iso of a DSLR?

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The Davinator
The Davinator Forum Pro • Posts: 24,581
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)

Are these full rez? It exif says it is, but the edges are all jagged like it is uprezzed from a tiny file

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BlueCosmo5050
OP BlueCosmo5050 Senior Member • Posts: 1,660
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)
5

Here is an example from today.

I opened the raw file on my computer, RAW is supported but now ProRaw yet that's why it's all dark. Watch how much dynamic range I get. The dark image is what I started with, then the final image is what I ended up with.

Starting Point

Where I ended up

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The Davinator
The Davinator Forum Pro • Posts: 24,581
Re: Apple ProRaw (WOW)

Fantastic.  Thanks for sharing that!

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