D850 to ... Z7 - what improved (that mattered)? Locked

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PHXAZCRAIG
OP PHXAZCRAIG Forum Pro • Posts: 17,386
Re: Not a lot...

You should see what it takes to get sharp edges in wide angle underwater!

Besides a huge dome port (230mm) and a$10,000  rig that weighs 30+ pounds out of the water, to get sharp edges you need ... more.  Like a permanent conversion (whatever that means) with the Nauticam WACP (Wide Angel Conversion Port), which itself cost $4700 and adds a staggering 8.6 pounds above water.

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thayes15 Regular Member • Posts: 221
Re: D850 to ... Z7 - what improved (that mattered)?

I've had a D850 for a few years now and love it, before that D700 and loved that probably even more in retrospect.

I have a Z6ii rather than Z7 but what I like more than I thought i would is

1. IBIS

2. IBIS

3. IBIS

4. It just seems to focus nicer than the D850. Not faster, just nicer somehow.

5. EVF has some advantages and disadvantages

6. I can adapt my vintage glass with dumb adapters (yeah I know, just me)

7. Very quiet shutter.

8. I did not think I would like the smaller body but when you pick up this camera you realize it's just beautifully engineered. It's a real pleasure to hold.

9. 50mm f 1.8 s lens. Oh dear, what can I say. Beautiful.

10. Did I mention IBIS?

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Labmom60
Labmom60 Senior Member • Posts: 1,181
Re: D850 to ... Z7 - what improved (that mattered)?

thayes15 wrote:

I've had a D850 for a few years now and love it, before that D700 and loved that probably even more in retrospect.

I have a Z6ii rather than Z7 but what I like more than I thought i would is

1. IBIS

2. IBIS

3. IBIS

4. It just seems to focus nicer than the D850. Not faster, just nicer somehow.

5. EVF has some advantages and disadvantages

6. I can adapt my vintage glass with dumb adapters (yeah I know, just me)

7. Very quiet shutter.

8. I did not think I would like the smaller body but when you pick up this camera you realize it's just beautifully engineered. It's a real pleasure to hold.

9. 50mm f 1.8 s lens. Oh dear, what can I say. Beautiful.

10. Did I mention IBIS?

I have a d750 and going to jump into mirrorless, but probably only a Z6 or Z6 II, unless I go with a d850.  I’ve heard very good things about IBIS and as far as EVF, seems like ppl either love it or hate it.  I’m thinking about a little lighter kit(I just retired so older) but not sure how much weight if you use a mirrorless body and DSLR lens, probably not much.

thayes15 Regular Member • Posts: 221
Re: D850 to ... Z7 - what improved (that mattered)?

I agree about EVF. Traditionally I hate them. They give me a headache. Even if not obvious they all seem to jitter. I know some EVF's have higher refresh rates than the Nikon z's and this might make all the difference. I've always been a huge OVF lover and still am.

But I don't think it's not a case of either/ or anymore but a case of both/and. As I said I think there are advantages and disadvantages.

The WYSIWYG of the EVF is outstanding. It's like seeing in the dark through the viewfinder in low light situations.

But if I was photographing BIF for instance, the OVF of the D850 would be far far more preferable. No image lag is a beautiful thing.

But for stills photography of still objects the Z is just a beautiful thing to use.

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jlafferty Senior Member • Posts: 1,330
Re: D850 to ... Z7 - what improved (that mattered)?

Yeah, I think we’ve satisfactorily established that birders prefer the SLR for now

And some sports shooters.

But I’ll bet that for every person who finds the EVF repulsive, there’s another who says this until they start using it regularly, and won’t be able to go back to OVF without it feeling like a downgrade.

I was one of those people who had a strong dislike of the idea of an EVF until I owned one.

IBIS is one of those things that is so seamless I’ve forgotten about it. But the second you shoot some handheld video that you hope will look like it was shot on a tripod, it’s shocking how good it is.

thayes15 wrote:

I agree about EVF. Traditionally I hate them. They give me a headache. Even if not obvious they all seem to jitter. I know some EVF's have higher refresh rates than the Nikon z's and this might make all the difference. I've always been a huge OVF lover and still am.

But I don't think it's not a case of either/ or anymore but a case of both/and. As I said I think there are advantages and disadvantages.

The WYSIWYG of the EVF is outstanding. It's like seeing in the dark through the viewfinder in low light situations.

But if I was photographing BIF for instance, the OVF of the D850 would be far far more preferable. No image lag is a beautiful thing.

But for stills photography of still objects the Z is just a beautiful thing to use.

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lightandaprayer Senior Member • Posts: 4,087
Re: Not a lot...

Paddler213 wrote:

lightandaprayer wrote:

Paddler213 wrote:

Interesting thread. I have a bunch of gear, including the D850 + the 24/1.8G. It's been my main choice for landscape and is okay, but the lens is soft on the edges.

The least expensive expensive option is to frame subjects with vital edge detail (a minuscule number for most photographers) so that the image can be cropped in post. . . The D850 has plenty of pixels so the ones lost to cropping won't ever be missed.

That's an unsatisfactory strategy for me. For landscape, I want maximum sharpness across the entire frame. If you look at the 24/1.8S or G, they both fall off midframe. The G, for instance, goes from a high of 3351 at f/4 to 2507 at midframe. The S hits a high of 3629 at f/4 and drops to 2709 by midframe and 2524 at the corners. The Zeiss is much more uniform across the frame, measuring well above 3500 for both center and edge from f/4 through f/11. One review, by PC Mag, showed Imatest scores measured on a D850 at f/5.6 of 4812 center and 4790 edge. Look like the Milvus crushes the other options, and I just wouldn't be happy settling for less than the best. So, going to a Z body and S lens is the wrong answer for me. And, I "saved" $2K. Win, win.

My suggestion is intended for photographers who do not have the money for an expensive prime lens or are satisfied with lesser results for their particular needs.  Many photo hobbyists fall into one or both of those categories.

To be clear, you still had to spend $2000 so you didn't actually "save" any money (hence the quotation marks. . .).  You just spent less than the other option would have required.

Paddler213 Contributing Member • Posts: 910
Re: Not a lot...

lightandaprayer wrote:

Paddler213 wrote:

lightandaprayer wrote:

Paddler213 wrote:

Interesting thread. I have a bunch of gear, including the D850 + the 24/1.8G. It's been my main choice for landscape and is okay, but the lens is soft on the edges.

The least expensive expensive option is to frame subjects with vital edge detail (a minuscule number for most photographers) so that the image can be cropped in post. . . The D850 has plenty of pixels so the ones lost to cropping won't ever be missed.

That's an unsatisfactory strategy for me. For landscape, I want maximum sharpness across the entire frame. If you look at the 24/1.8S or G, they both fall off midframe. The G, for instance, goes from a high of 3351 at f/4 to 2507 at midframe. The S hits a high of 3629 at f/4 and drops to 2709 by midframe and 2524 at the corners. The Zeiss is much more uniform across the frame, measuring well above 3500 for both center and edge from f/4 through f/11. One review, by PC Mag, showed Imatest scores measured on a D850 at f/5.6 of 4812 center and 4790 edge. Look like the Milvus crushes the other options, and I just wouldn't be happy settling for less than the best. So, going to a Z body and S lens is the wrong answer for me. And, I "saved" $2K. Win, win.

My suggestion is intended for photographers who do not have the money for an expensive prime lens or are satisfied with lesser results for their particular needs. Many photo hobbyists fall into one or both of those categories.

To be clear, you still had to spend $2000 so you didn't actually "save" any money (hence the quotation marks. . .). You just spent less than the other option would have required.

Yes, the "saved" was in jest.  But it was money well spent.

I took it out yesterday for its maiden voyage and really enjoyed shooting with it.  It's going to be my main landscape lens for quite a while, at least when its size and weight aren't an issue.  I'll likely take my 24/1.8G on motorcycle tours.

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NotASpeckOfCereal Senior Member • Posts: 1,784
Re: D850 to ... Z7 - what improved (that mattered)?

PHXAZCRAIG wrote:

I love my D850, and several DSLRs before that. I'm mildly curious about mirrorless, but only if a mirrorless camera solves a problem I have with the D850. So far I see the D850 as generally superior in autofocus, battery life, and turn-on speed. THe Z7 seems like it must be better for video autofocus, but (perhaps because of poor video autofocus) I don't shoot video.

If you went from a D850 to a Z7, what do you see as for-sure improvements? And any drawbacks?

I always carry spare batteries. I think we, all of us, always have.

But battery life still matters to me for many reasons. The two that immediately come to mind is a) stopping a time-lapse sequence to swap batteries is an absolute no-go; and b) more you change batteries means a higher incidence of times where you have to change at inconvenient moments. If you've never had to change batteries when you rather would not have had to, then skip this point — it's happened to me enough times.

The controls and ergonomics of a D850 battery is a design culminated over decades of camera design. The smaller Z bodies remove from that. Even if you don't mind the feel of a smaller camera body in your hands, there are the lack of controls.

Seeing your exposure in the EVF vs. OVF, personal choice. I chose the latter. There ARE exposure indicators in the OVF, by the way, if you know how to read those.

I get the same silent shooting experience on my D850 that someone gets on a Z body. No shutter shock, no mirror lock up (except the first going into LV).

I got focus stacking. I've got fold out LCD. I've got touch LCD with focus.

The FTZ for existing closets of lenses means that the size/weight advantage of a Z body is something less.

I really don't need IBIS, but if you do, that will weigh more heavily for you.

The more kinds of genre (shooting types) you do, the more these points will vary. Obviously, having one of each (mirrorless and DSLR) means you can use the one most appropriate for the shoot. However, even with that consideration, I opted to buy another D850 for my 2nd body

Chris

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NotASpeckOfCereal Senior Member • Posts: 1,784
Re: D850 to ... Z7 - what improved (that mattered)?

thayes15 wrote:

4. It just seems to focus nicer than the D850. Not faster, just nicer somehow.

I stopped reading at this step, though I should have stopped at the first 3.

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NotASpeckOfCereal Senior Member • Posts: 1,784
Re: A lot...

maljo@inreach.com wrote:

no mirror lock up needed
[....]

no mirror vibration

Are those 2 items somehow different?

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mostlyboringphotog Veteran Member • Posts: 9,651
Re: D850 to ... Z7 - what improved... only XQD slot

Not an improvement - seems Z7 II have fix it.

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 21,178
Re: D850 to ... Z7 - what improved (that mattered)?

PHXAZCRAIG wrote:

If you went from a D850 to a Z7, what do you see as for-sure improvements? And any drawbacks?

My guidance is hire a Z7 and FTZ for a week - to find out what ML can do better than your DSLR (lots of things) - and what it cannot do as well.

I use a Z7 a lot - but retain a D850 for the things it does better than a Z7.

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mrjpack Contributing Member • Posts: 880
Re: D850 to ... Z7 - what improved (that mattered)?

richiebee wrote:

I have a D850 and Z6. D850 beats the Z6 in focus acquisition speed, and low light focus ability, but Z6 beats D850 in focus hit rate. For what I shoot on a day to day basis, I'd take the Z6 accuracy over the D850 speed. YMMV.

I have  struggles With low light focus on my Z6ii, I then read how to set it up with single point afs and it increased the hit rate and acquisition dramatically. I shot an outdoor wedding and the sun went down during ceremony, the 850 and Z6ii performed pretty equally at that point. Didn’t try it with afc but the single point seemed to really help...

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 14,120
Re: Not a lot...

If this is supposed to be a sharper picture than you would get with a 24G...

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lightandaprayer Senior Member • Posts: 4,087
Re: Not a lot...

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

If this is supposed to be a sharper picture than you would get with a 24G...

I hate to rain on Paddler's parade but I have the same reaction. . . Did the conversion to JPEG somehow have an effect on image sharpness?

Paddler213 Contributing Member • Posts: 910
Re: Not a lot...

lightandaprayer wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

If this is supposed to be a sharper picture than you would get with a 24G...

I hate to rain on Paddler's parade but I have the same reaction. . . Did the conversion to JPEG somehow have an effect on image sharpness?

My first attempts with this lens. I agree it's not all that sharp, not sure why. JPEG conversion? Could be a DOF problem, or possibly wind. The branches are sharper than the leaves, for instance. Or maybe a focus problem due to manual focus. I like the contrast and color, though.  I'll be shooting it against my 24/1.8G on a tripod in the near future.  If it doesn't do better than the G I'll either send it back or have Zeiss inspect it.

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Paddler213 Contributing Member • Posts: 910
Re: Not a lot...

I'm thinking it was my technique, or at least hope so. That was taken on a tripod at 1/100sec, f/8, ISO 64, so should have been much better. Interesting that this next one was taken handheld at 1/50sec, f/11, ISO 125, and looks better to me. What do you guys think?

Actually, this one from the same day has detail from edge to edge. Also shot handheld, it looks okay to me. I don't think the lens is a problem:

Sorry to go off thread, but this does show that for me the Z wouldn't offer any advantage for landscape, which would be the primary reason to add mirrorless.

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Paddler213 Contributing Member • Posts: 910
Re: Not a lot...

So, I've been shooting bit more with the Milvus.  I wasn't happy with the sharpness before and wondered why.  I went back to the same area and shot the following image.  In retrospect, I think the problem was the wind at 1/100 sec.  Even 1/200 was too long during gusts.  To reliably eliminate motion blur required 1/250 to 1/400.  I'm now comfortable that the Zeiss Milvus 1.4/25 plus the D850 will handily best a Z body with the 24/1.8S.  In fact, I ordered the 70-200 FL, which should arrive tomorrow:

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jlafferty Senior Member • Posts: 1,330
Re: Not a lot...

Where’s your Z7 24S shot of the same scene to compare?

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T O Shooter Forum Pro • Posts: 11,212
Not the Zee forum

jlafferty wrote:

Where’s your Z7 24S shot of the same scene to compare?

Have a read at this comment and the one that follows it. Explains the myth of the wide flange, and points out what I've been saying.  Lens made cheap and corrected with software.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6196822450/lenses-for-mirrorless-how-canon-nikon-panasonic-and-sony-full-frame-options-compare?comment=6417970341

Why not keep your Zee lens comments to the Zee forum?

And how many real photographers need to compare a lens side by side to see if there's miniscule differences?

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