X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
ritterbutzke New Member • Posts: 11
X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)

Hey everybody,
Currently trying to decide between the X70 and XF10, both have their advantages, but the main deciding factor for me would be whether they have that Fuji "magic" with SOOC Jpegs (mostly classic chrome).
I saw this thread: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63146350?image=0 which compared XF10 to X100T Jpgs and Classic Chrome looked quite different between the two.
Anybody have both bodies and could compare the Colors between the two for Jpeg?
Thanks!

Fujifilm X100T Pentax X70
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AndyH44 Senior Member • Posts: 2,245
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)
1

I much prefer the images from the X70.  Got to be the x-Trans sensor. 

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"True craftsmen never blame their tools, but learn to use them properly"

 AndyH44's gear list:AndyH44's gear list
Fujifilm X70 Olympus TG-5 Olympus E-PL7 Fujifilm X-E2S Fujifilm X-T3 +1 more
IWBF
IWBF Regular Member • Posts: 178
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)

Hi,

I know, you ask about the colors. However, keep in mind that the X70 has a 16 M sensor and the XF10 a 24 M sensor. This might be important if you crop in postprocessing or if you want to use the digital zoom for 35mm or 50mm in camera cropping.

GabrielFFontes Contributing Member • Posts: 654
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)
1

ritterbutzke wrote:

Hey everybody,
Currently trying to decide between the X70 and XF10, both have their advantages, but the main deciding factor for me would be whether they have that Fuji "magic" with SOOC Jpegs (mostly classic chrome).
I saw this thread: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63146350?image=0 which compared XF10 to X100T Jpgs and Classic Chrome looked quite different between the two.
Anybody have both bodies and could compare the Colors between the two for Jpeg?
Thanks!

Images are exposed very differently, they make for a bad color comparison

X-Trans shouldn't make a difference in color rendering unless Fuji specifically wants it to, for marketing purposes

 GabrielFFontes's gear list:GabrielFFontes's gear list
Fujifilm X-T3 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 56mm F1.2 R
OP ritterbutzke New Member • Posts: 11
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)
1

GabrielFFontes wrote:

ritterbutzke wrote:

Hey everybody,
Currently trying to decide between the X70 and XF10, both have their advantages, but the main deciding factor for me would be whether they have that Fuji "magic" with SOOC Jpegs (mostly classic chrome).
I saw this thread: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63146350?image=0 which compared XF10 to X100T Jpgs and Classic Chrome looked quite different between the two.
Anybody have both bodies and could compare the Colors between the two for Jpeg?
Thanks!

Images are exposed very differently, they make for a bad color comparison

X-Trans shouldn't make a difference in color rendering unless Fuji specifically wants it to, for marketing purposes

Colors are definitely different. See here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtNYu_7SPNc

IWBF
IWBF Regular Member • Posts: 178
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)
1

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

OP ritterbutzke New Member • Posts: 11
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)

IWBF wrote:

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

While true, in the youtube comparison bayer is compared to both xtrans III and xtrans IV sensors, which end up looking way more alike than the bayer sensor.

IWBF
IWBF Regular Member • Posts: 178
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)

ritterbutzke wrote:

IWBF wrote:

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

While true, in the youtube comparison bayer is compared to both xtrans III and xtrans IV sensors, which end up looking way more alike than the bayer sensor.

Well, if you like it better then go for X70. In the end it's all highly subjective.

Erik Baumgartner Senior Member • Posts: 3,077
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)
1

IWBF wrote:

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

If you don’t like the RAW color, you can tweak it to suit your preference. There is much you can do to tweak the jpeg color in-camera too, but that may genuinely vary a bit from model to model. One camera may produce nicer looking images, but the fact that one is X-Trans and the other is Bayer won’t be the determining factor for which has “better” color.

 Erik Baumgartner's gear list:Erik Baumgartner's gear list
Fujifilm X100V Fujifilm X-T2 Fujifilm X-T20 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 56mm F1.2 R +2 more
CAcreeks
CAcreeks Forum Pro • Posts: 15,837
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)

IWBF wrote:

ritterbutzke wrote:

IWBF wrote:

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

Almost all Fujifilm models have slightly different color balances in the various film emulations. It's as if the R&D teams never talk to each other.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

While true, in the youtube comparison bayer is compared to both xtrans III and xtrans IV sensors, which end up looking way more alike than the bayer sensor.

As I recall, the X-T3 (IV) has greener skin tones in standard Provia than the X-T2 (III), as you can see in the DPreview scene comparison tool. I might have mixed up the models, but it is pretty obvious when you compare.

The X-T100 has redder color balance than the X-T20. This might be explained by more red versus green pixels in the Bayer array.

Well, if you like it better then go for X70. In the end it's all highly subjective.

I was never interested in either camera, so no comment.

KariP
KariP Veteran Member • Posts: 5,667
It was again an other fruitless Youtube test ...

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

IWBF wrote:

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

If you don’t like the RAW color, you can tweak it to suit your preference. There is much you can do to tweak the jpeg color in-camera too, but that may genuinely vary a bit from model to model. One camera may produce nicer looking images, but the fact that one is X-Trans and the other is Bayer won’t be the determining factor for which has “better” color.

Very true

Comparing sensors in the way it was done in this Youtube video is quite fruitless and i do not know if the guy had just fun or was he seriously believing in his own test. Anyway, it really was not very scientific . Perhaps it could work as a psychological test - do people really believe in this test and in what they believe they see  - and why.

Nowadays i shoot only RAW with my Fujifilm cameras. I process my RAW files in Capture One and i use quite often some of the film simulations. RAW file is just a file - the software and settings in camera (if shooting JPEG)  or in my iMac  when i process RW files create the colors i see.  I make the adjustments - not the Xtrans or Bayer   

Choosing a "better" camera (or sensor)  based on this Youtube Video is almost stupid. Fujifilm cameras ARE different in many ways ... just reading decent tests helps

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Kari
I started SLR film photography in 1968, first DSLR was Canon 40D in 2007. Now Fujifilm X-E3 and X-H1 for nature, walking around ,traveling/landscapes - fantastic 5DMkIV for landscapes, macro , BIF ... .

 KariP's gear list:KariP's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm X-H1 Canon EF 50mm F1.4 USM Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM +11 more
OP ritterbutzke New Member • Posts: 11
Re: It was again an other fruitless Youtube test ...

KariP wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

IWBF wrote:

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

If you don’t like the RAW color, you can tweak it to suit your preference. There is much you can do to tweak the jpeg color in-camera too, but that may genuinely vary a bit from model to model. One camera may produce nicer looking images, but the fact that one is X-Trans and the other is Bayer won’t be the determining factor for which has “better” color.

Very true

Comparing sensors in the way it was done in this Youtube video is quite fruitless and i do not know if the guy had just fun or was he seriously believing in his own test. Anyway, it really was not very scientific . Perhaps it could work as a psychological test - do people really believe in this test and in what they believe they see - and why.

Nowadays i shoot only RAW with my Fujifilm cameras. I process my RAW files in Capture One and i use quite often some of the film simulations. RAW file is just a file - the software and settings in camera (if shooting JPEG) or in my iMac when i process RW files create the colors i see. I make the adjustments - not the Xtrans or Bayer

Choosing a "better" camera (or sensor) based on this Youtube Video is almost stupid. Fujifilm cameras ARE different in many ways ... just reading decent tests helps

Why is comparing the straight out of camera Provia Jpegs non-scientific?
Most people shoot Jpeg and dont tweak color settings.

IWBF
IWBF Regular Member • Posts: 178
Re: It was again an other fruitless Youtube test ...

ritterbutzke wrote:

KariP wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

IWBF wrote:

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

If you don’t like the RAW color, you can tweak it to suit your preference. There is much you can do to tweak the jpeg color in-camera too, but that may genuinely vary a bit from model to model. One camera may produce nicer looking images, but the fact that one is X-Trans and the other is Bayer won’t be the determining factor for which has “better” color.

Very true

Comparing sensors in the way it was done in this Youtube video is quite fruitless and i do not know if the guy had just fun or was he seriously believing in his own test. Anyway, it really was not very scientific . Perhaps it could work as a psychological test - do people really believe in this test and in what they believe they see - and why.

Nowadays i shoot only RAW with my Fujifilm cameras. I process my RAW files in Capture One and i use quite often some of the film simulations. RAW file is just a file - the software and settings in camera (if shooting JPEG) or in my iMac when i process RW files create the colors i see. I make the adjustments - not the Xtrans or Bayer

Choosing a "better" camera (or sensor) based on this Youtube Video is almost stupid. Fujifilm cameras ARE different in many ways ... just reading decent tests helps

Why is comparing the straight out of camera Provia Jpegs non-scientific?
Most people shoot Jpeg and dont tweak color settings.

Most people shoot Iphone/Samsung.

Erik Baumgartner Senior Member • Posts: 3,077
Re: It was again an other fruitless Youtube test ...

ritterbutzke wrote:

KariP wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

IWBF wrote:

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

If you don’t like the RAW color, you can tweak it to suit your preference. There is much you can do to tweak the jpeg color in-camera too, but that may genuinely vary a bit from model to model. One camera may produce nicer looking images, but the fact that one is X-Trans and the other is Bayer won’t be the determining factor for which has “better” color.

Very true

Comparing sensors in the way it was done in this Youtube video is quite fruitless and i do not know if the guy had just fun or was he seriously believing in his own test. Anyway, it really was not very scientific . Perhaps it could work as a psychological test - do people really believe in this test and in what they believe they see - and why.

Nowadays i shoot only RAW with my Fujifilm cameras. I process my RAW files in Capture One and i use quite often some of the film simulations. RAW file is just a file - the software and settings in camera (if shooting JPEG) or in my iMac when i process RW files create the colors i see. I make the adjustments - not the Xtrans or Bayer

Choosing a "better" camera (or sensor) based on this Youtube Video is almost stupid. Fujifilm cameras ARE different in many ways ... just reading decent tests helps

Why is comparing the straight out of camera Provia Jpegs non-scientific?
Most people shoot Jpeg and dont tweak color settings.

I think comparing SOOC jpegs is valid, but if one camera is determined to produce better images, is any effort made to produce the same “quality” from the other camera? There are many jpeg setting parameters that can be tweaked to produce a different result and that operate somewhat differently between models - for example, the sharpening is much stronger by default in the cheaper cameras.

 Erik Baumgartner's gear list:Erik Baumgartner's gear list
Fujifilm X100V Fujifilm X-T2 Fujifilm X-T20 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 56mm F1.2 R +2 more
afm Contributing Member • Posts: 553
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)

I have the X70 and my son the XF10. In my opinion the X70 produces a better image. The XF10 's image is over sharp by default and more contrasty which probably contributes to the variation in colour. i find it somewhat akin to images out of a good phone camera. Both cameras share the same lens but different sensors of course and I think that lens/sensor combination on the XF 10 is inferior. The centre of the lens is very sharp but the margins are diabolical, This is on the second copy of the XF10, the first,  which was returned, was the same.

KariP
KariP Veteran Member • Posts: 5,667
Re: It was again an other fruitless Youtube test ...

ritterbutzke wrote:

KariP wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

IWBF wrote:

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

If you don’t like the RAW color, you can tweak it to suit your preference. There is much you can do to tweak the jpeg color in-camera too, but that may genuinely vary a bit from model to model. One camera may produce nicer looking images, but the fact that one is X-Trans and the other is Bayer won’t be the determining factor for which has “better” color.

Very true

Comparing sensors in the way it was done in this Youtube video is quite fruitless and i do not know if the guy had just fun or was he seriously believing in his own test. Anyway, it really was not very scientific . Perhaps it could work as a psychological test - do people really believe in this test and in what they believe they see - and why.

Nowadays i shoot only RAW with my Fujifilm cameras. I process my RAW files in Capture One and i use quite often some of the film simulations. RAW file is just a file - the software and settings in camera (if shooting JPEG) or in my iMac when i process RW files create the colors i see. I make the adjustments - not the Xtrans or Bayer

Choosing a "better" camera (or sensor) based on this Youtube Video is almost stupid. Fujifilm cameras ARE different in many ways ... just reading decent tests helps

Why is comparing the straight out of camera Provia Jpegs non-scientific?
Most people shoot Jpeg and dont tweak color settings.

Different cameras have different processors and different settings - i mean that it is very unscientific to talk about sensor differences.   Or image quality as quality

Science means that you should KNOW what you are testing - lenses are different, photographers are different , settings are different, film simulations are different  and so  on. In this video it was impossible to know WHAT was tested and WHY .

My images look different than yours  - but i do not say that is science. That YouTube test was just a guy playing with different cameras.  I advice reading better tests if you are looking for a good camera.

It (the "test")  did not help you to choose between cameras - IF you wan to buy a camera with better output or better usability.  Just misleading nonsense. Or not even misleading - just confusing pseudo testing. Luckily scientists usually know what they are doing.

-- hide signature --

Kari
I started SLR film photography in 1968, first DSLR was Canon 40D in 2007. Now Fujifilm X-E3 and X-H1 for nature, walking around ,traveling/landscapes - fantastic 5DMkIV for landscapes, macro , BIF ... .

 KariP's gear list:KariP's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm X-H1 Canon EF 50mm F1.4 USM Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM +11 more
OP ritterbutzke New Member • Posts: 11
Re: It was again an other fruitless Youtube test ...

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

I think comparing SOOC jpegs is valid, but if one camera is determined to produce better images, is any effort made to produce the same “quality” from the other camera? There are many jpeg setting parameters that can be tweaked to produce a different result and that operate somewhat differently between models - for example, the sharpening is much stronger by default in the cheaper cameras.

I mean do you think Fujis use of X-trans in their premium model is purely marketing and adds no value?

KariP
KariP Veteran Member • Posts: 5,667
Re: It was again an other fruitless Youtube test ...

IWBF wrote:

ritterbutzke wrote:

KariP wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

IWBF wrote:

There is a good comment by Erik Baumgartner in the thread you refered to in your original post: He states that the settings for color, highlights, shadows etc. have an impact on the colors. They cannot be used 1:1 from one sensor to the other and have to be tweaked for comparable results.

I think it's clear that both cameras have different color output and I believe it is possible to use different settings to get them close. It is unknown what settings were used by the youtube guy but I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same for all 4 cameras.

If you don’t like the RAW color, you can tweak it to suit your preference. There is much you can do to tweak the jpeg color in-camera too, but that may genuinely vary a bit from model to model. One camera may produce nicer looking images, but the fact that one is X-Trans and the other is Bayer won’t be the determining factor for which has “better” color.

Very true

Comparing sensors in the way it was done in this Youtube video is quite fruitless and i do not know if the guy had just fun or was he seriously believing in his own test. Anyway, it really was not very scientific . Perhaps it could work as a psychological test - do people really believe in this test and in what they believe they see - and why.

Nowadays i shoot only RAW with my Fujifilm cameras. I process my RAW files in Capture One and i use quite often some of the film simulations. RAW file is just a file - the software and settings in camera (if shooting JPEG) or in my iMac when i process RW files create the colors i see. I make the adjustments - not the Xtrans or Bayer

Choosing a "better" camera (or sensor) based on this Youtube Video is almost stupid. Fujifilm cameras ARE different in many ways ... just reading decent tests helps

Why is comparing the straight out of camera Provia Jpegs non-scientific?
Most people shoot Jpeg and dont tweak color settings.

Most people shoot Iphone/Samsung.

There are  also tests comparing iPhones and Samsung  cameras - of course there are also several models... and processors and settings and modes in the cameras. And they produce nice images IMO.  An ILC is a bit better for more serious work. IF the photographer knows what he/she is doing. Most people are happy with their phones

-- hide signature --

Kari
I started SLR film photography in 1968, first DSLR was Canon 40D in 2007. Now Fujifilm X-E3 and X-H1 for nature, walking around ,traveling/landscapes - fantastic 5DMkIV for landscapes, macro , BIF ... .

 KariP's gear list:KariP's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm X-H1 Canon EF 50mm F1.4 USM Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM +11 more
Erik Baumgartner Senior Member • Posts: 3,077
Re: It was again an other fruitless Youtube test ...
4

ritterbutzke wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

I think comparing SOOC jpegs is valid, but if one camera is determined to produce better images, is any effort made to produce the same “quality” from the other camera? There are many jpeg setting parameters that can be tweaked to produce a different result and that operate somewhat differently between models - for example, the sharpening is much stronger by default in the cheaper cameras.

I mean do you think Fujis use of X-trans in their premium model is purely marketing and adds no value?

At 16MP vs. a Bayer sensor with an antialiasing filter, yeah, there maybe was some benefit (but not in color). At 24/26MP vs. a Bayer sensor with no antialiasing filter there is really not much to distinguish one over the other in image quality, X-Trans requires more complicated post processing for best results when shooting RAW and the cost to produce the specialized X-Trans CFA has got to be more expensive than Bayer too. I really hope they switch to Bayer with the new 30+ MP sensor, as that would really just be marketing IMO. I personally don’t have any major issues with X-Trans, I’m used to it and know how to get the most out of it, but I think it’s time to move on. I really doubt that “X-Trans” offers much of a marketing advantage these days anyway, a premium Bayer model would attract those who perceive X-Trans as a potential hassle.

 Erik Baumgartner's gear list:Erik Baumgartner's gear list
Fujifilm X100V Fujifilm X-T2 Fujifilm X-T20 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 56mm F1.2 R +2 more
erjennin Regular Member • Posts: 182
Re: X-trans vs Bayer colors? (X70 vs XF10)

It’s not really an X-Trans vs Bauer thing but specifically the colors from the 16 megapixel sensor were unique. Even modern Fuji x-trans sensors are not able to duplicate the 16 megapixel sensor color output.

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