Which cameras have an optical low-pass filter (for anti-aliasing)?

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Samuel Dilworth
Samuel Dilworth Contributing Member • Posts: 740
Which cameras have an optical low-pass filter (for anti-aliasing)?
4

It continues to amaze me that people actively want rid of this artefact-suppressing filter and that camera-makers with engineers on staff acquiesce in this folly.

With that off my chest, which current or recent Micro Four Thirds cameras retain such a filter?

The GH5S, right?

The GH4 had one, I think, but the GH5 does not, I think.

I know the GX8 had one, because I briefly had that camera and loved the way it recorded hard edges free of lurid false colour.

Anything at all on the Olympus side?

Anything at all with 20 megapixels?

Thanks.

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Paul De Bra
Paul De Bra Forum Pro • Posts: 12,796
Re: Which cameras have an optical low-pass filter (for anti-aliasing)?
3

Samuel Dilworth wrote:

...

Anything at all on the Olympus side?

Anything at all with 20 megapixels?

Thanks.

The Oly E-M5 has an AA filter. The E-M5 II and later does not. I have both and although you can get Moiré with the E-M5 you get more of it with the E-M5 II. (I have yet to notice any sharpness advantage of the E-M5 II over the E-M5 despite the filter not being on the II.

I don't think any of the Oly 20MP cameras still has an AA filter, but I'm not sure.

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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 43,168
I don't want an AA...
3

Samuel Dilworth wrote:

It continues to amaze me that people actively want rid of this artefact-suppressing filter and that camera-makers with engineers on staff acquiesce in this folly.

I don't see it as folly. I see it as great. There's JPEG engines now that do a good job to remove moire and better tools for RAW. The benefit is more detail, particularly on B&W shots it's pretty great as color moire doesn't affect much there.

With that off my chest, which current or recent Micro Four Thirds cameras retain such a filter?

The GH5S, right?

NO idea.

The GH4 had one, I think, but the GH5 does not, I think.

Not 100% sure but I think GH5 doesn't have it.

I know the GX8 had one, because I briefly had that camera and loved the way it recorded hard edges free of lurid false colour.

GX8 def. has one.  The Panasonic GX85 doesn't. Neither the GX9.

The GM5 has one, the GX850 does not.

Anything at all on the Olympus side?

EPL9, EPL11 have it. PenF does not. EM5 MKIII does not. EM1 MKII/III, EM1X do not.

Anything at all with 20 megapixels?

Anything Olympus with the 20 MP sensor does not seem to have an AA filter. I wasn't sure about the new EM10 MarkIV but looks like it doesn't have one either.

Thanks.

I will admit to you if I was shooting weddings or fashion shows regular, I may prefer an AA censored camera as I don't want to go through tons of wedding shots looking out for color moire.  But in that case,I would probably be shooting Fuji, as they are more resilient to it while not having an AA filter.

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AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 61,123
Roptical low-pass filter (for anti-aliasing)?
2

being on the II.

I don't think any of the Oly 20MP cameras still has an AA filter, but I'm not sure.

Of the 20Mp M43 cams , only the GX8 has an AA filter, all the rest don`t have one ..

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cx5bc Forum Member • Posts: 58
Re: I don't want an AA...
1

Hi,

Iam no expert but I had Nikon z50 for couple weeks and returned due to moire in still and video. When researching, m43 has more mp scrammed into smaller sensor size which reduces Moire. My em5.3, I don't have any issue with miore FYI.

Skeeterbytes Forum Pro • Posts: 18,988
Re: Which cameras have an optical low-pass filter (for anti-aliasing)?
3

Never see moire from m4/3 lenses on my AA-less bodies (E-M1, E-M1ii) but it will show up with the sharpest of my 4/3 lenses. Moire with m4/3 lenses is controlled in the processor (beginning with TruePic VII).

Cheers,

Rick

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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 43,168
Re: I don't want an AA...

cx5bc wrote:

Hi,

Iam no expert but I had Nikon z50 for couple weeks and returned due to moire in still and video. When researching, m43 has more mp scrammed into smaller sensor size which reduces Moire. My em5.3, I don't have any issue with miore FYI.

I have seen moire on my em5 mkiii but it’s not alarmingly frequent . depends what you shoot

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spider-mario
spider-mario Contributing Member • Posts: 692
Re: Which cameras have an optical low-pass filter (for anti-aliasing)?
8

Skeeterbytes wrote:

Never see moire from m4/3 lenses on my AA-less bodies (E-M1, E-M1ii) but it will show up with the sharpest of my 4/3 lenses. Moire with m4/3 lenses is controlled in the processor (beginning with TruePic VII).

I have gotten very clear moiré with the Olympus 45mm f/1.2. Look at this beauty:

Even a bit wide open:

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Terrible Photographer
Terrible Photographer Contributing Member • Posts: 611
Re: Which cameras have an optical low-pass filter (for anti-aliasing)?
4

spider-mario wrote:

Skeeterbytes wrote:

Never see moire from m4/3 lenses on my AA-less bodies (E-M1, E-M1ii) but it will show up with the sharpest of my 4/3 lenses. Moire with m4/3 lenses is controlled in the processor (beginning with TruePic VII).

I have gotten very clear moiré with the Olympus 45mm f/1.2. Look at this beauty:

In the 15 years I've been a working photographer, I've NEVER seen moiré THAT BAD. Holy cow....

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Eric Nepean
Eric Nepean Veteran Member • Posts: 5,655
Re: Which cameras have an optical low-pass filter (for anti-aliasing)?
5

I bought my GX8 precisely because it was the only 20MP M43 camera with an AA filter.

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Paul De Bra
Paul De Bra Forum Pro • Posts: 12,796
That's what no AA filter + sharp lens gives.
5

An AA filter is simple a "blurring filter", but one that blurs just around the pixel level on the sensor. You do want the green and blue pixels to capture a bit of the light from the nearest red pixel when the light is pure green or blue, and then all the permutations of this. With a super sharp lens a perfectly straight one pixel wide horizontal or vertical line in one color can disappear completely from an image and a diagonal one can become a dashed line...

In almost all cases the slightest bit of unsharpness caused by a lens is enough to avoid the lack of an AA filter resulting in Moiré, but when you have a super-sharp lens it can be Moiré galore! I prefer having a super sharp lens + an AA filter over less sharp (consumer-grade) lens and no AA filter. The AA filter does a much better job at spreading light over just the adjacent pixels than an unsharp lens.

I have seen Moiré just like yours, on finely detailed textured textiles. It's a pain to go over each image and selectively apply a Moiré filter in software.

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Samuel Dilworth
OP Samuel Dilworth Contributing Member • Posts: 740
Re: Which cameras have an optical low-pass filter (for anti-aliasing)?
1

Eric Nepean wrote:

I bought my GX8 precisely because it was the only 20MP M43 camera with an AA filter.

Honestly, so did I. It was only when I got the camera and realised that I had to like the whole device, not just the sensor, that I quickly moved it on.

Wish there was more choice in cameras with OLPFs. Only Canon seems to be sticking to their guns on this. Canon has always seemed more thorough and competent to me, engineering-wise, than other camera companies.

Mark Ransom
Mark Ransom Veteran Member • Posts: 7,444
Re: That's what no AA filter + sharp lens gives.
1

Paul De Bra wrote:

An AA filter is simple a "blurring filter", but one that blurs just around the pixel level on the sensor. You do want the green and blue pixels to capture a bit of the light from the nearest red pixel when the light is pure green or blue, and then all the permutations of this. With a super sharp lens a perfectly straight one pixel wide horizontal or vertical line in one color can disappear completely from an image and a diagonal one can become a dashed line...

In almost all cases the slightest bit of unsharpness caused by a lens is enough to avoid the lack of an AA filter resulting in Moiré, but when you have a super-sharp lens it can be Moiré galore! I prefer having a super sharp lens + an AA filter over less sharp (consumer-grade) lens and no AA filter. The AA filter does a much better job at spreading light over just the adjacent pixels than an unsharp lens.

I have seen Moiré just like yours, on finely detailed textured textiles. It's a pain to go over each image and selectively apply a Moiré filter in software.

Moiré is caused when the image projected by the lens out-resolves the sensor. As sensor resolutions have gone up this becomes less likely, explaining the disappearing AA filter trend. Any source of blur can act as an AA filter, including misfocus, motion blur, or diffraction limiting. It becomes increasingly uncommon for the stars to align in such a way to make moiré a problem.

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Paul De Bra
Paul De Bra Forum Pro • Posts: 12,796
So... lenses are becoming too sharp...
4

Mark Ransom wrote:

...

Moiré is caused when the image projected by the lens out-resolves the sensor. As sensor resolutions have gone up this becomes less likely, explaining the disappearing AA filter trend. Any source of blur can act as an AA filter, including misfocus, motion blur, or diffraction limiting. It becomes increasingly uncommon for the stars to align in such a way to make moiré a problem.

When I just got the E-M5 (with a weak AA filter) in 2012 I only saw Moiré with the 20mm f/1.7, a very sharp lens. But later I got the 12-40 f/2.8 and started seeing Moiré more often. Moving on (later) to the E-M5 II has increased the number of images with Moiré again (because of the lack of AA filter). I don't want to rely on the unsharpness of lenses to not need an AA filter. For me a lens can never be too sharp.

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Mark Ransom
Mark Ransom Veteran Member • Posts: 7,444
Re: So... lenses are becoming too sharp...

Paul De Bra wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote:

...

Moiré is caused when the image projected by the lens out-resolves the sensor. As sensor resolutions have gone up this becomes less likely, explaining the disappearing AA filter trend. Any source of blur can act as an AA filter, including misfocus, motion blur, or diffraction limiting. It becomes increasingly uncommon for the stars to align in such a way to make moiré a problem.

When I just got the E-M5 (with a weak AA filter) in 2012 I only saw Moiré with the 20mm f/1.7, a very sharp lens. But later I got the 12-40 f/2.8 and started seeing Moiré more often. Moving on (later) to the E-M5 II has increased the number of images with Moiré again (because of the lack of AA filter). I don't want to rely on the unsharpness of lenses to not need an AA filter. For me a lens can never be too sharp.

So a lens can never be too sharp, but a sensor can?  Interesting perspective.

I actually understand exactly where you're coming from, but as moiré becomes more rare the manufacturers will consider it less of a problem and turn their attentions elsewhere.  By the time 40mp m4/3 sensors become available, the AA filter might not be offered as an option anymore.

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s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,618
Re: Which cameras have an optical low-pass filter (for anti-aliasing)?

I talk only about cameras I have:

GH2 has low pass filter, and G85 does not.

I know how to get moire from both, and with ease. G 85 gives me photos with better resolution, micro contrast, clarity

I believe that loss of low pass filter delivers no annoyance in compare with gains in overall photos IQ

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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 43,168
Re: That's what no AA filter + sharp lens gives.

Mark Ransom wrote:

Paul De Bra wrote:

An AA filter is simple a "blurring filter", but one that blurs just around the pixel level on the sensor. You do want the green and blue pixels to capture a bit of the light from the nearest red pixel when the light is pure green or blue, and then all the permutations of this. With a super sharp lens a perfectly straight one pixel wide horizontal or vertical line in one color can disappear completely from an image and a diagonal one can become a dashed line...

In almost all cases the slightest bit of unsharpness caused by a lens is enough to avoid the lack of an AA filter resulting in Moiré, but when you have a super-sharp lens it can be Moiré galore! I prefer having a super sharp lens + an AA filter over less sharp (consumer-grade) lens and no AA filter. The AA filter does a much better job at spreading light over just the adjacent pixels than an unsharp lens.

I have seen Moiré just like yours, on finely detailed textured textiles. It's a pain to go over each image and selectively apply a Moiré filter in software.

Moiré is caused when the image projected by the lens out-resolves the sensor. As sensor resolutions have gone up this becomes less likely, explaining the disappearing AA filter trend. Any source of blur can act as an AA filter, including misfocus, motion blur, or diffraction limiting. It becomes increasingly uncommon for the stars to align in such a way to make moiré a problem.

But perhaps 20 MP is not enough   Fuji avoids a lot of this by using  their x-trans CFga

we need to see m43 getting a higher resolution sensor first

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ahaslett
ahaslett Veteran Member • Posts: 7,498
Re: That's what no AA filter + sharp lens gives.

Raist3d wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote:

Paul De Bra wrote:

An AA filter is simple a "blurring filter", but one that blurs just around the pixel level on the sensor. You do want the green and blue pixels to capture a bit of the light from the nearest red pixel when the light is pure green or blue, and then all the permutations of this. With a super sharp lens a perfectly straight one pixel wide horizontal or vertical line in one color can disappear completely from an image and a diagonal one can become a dashed line...

In almost all cases the slightest bit of unsharpness caused by a lens is enough to avoid the lack of an AA filter resulting in Moiré, but when you have a super-sharp lens it can be Moiré galore! I prefer having a super sharp lens + an AA filter over less sharp (consumer-grade) lens and no AA filter. The AA filter does a much better job at spreading light over just the adjacent pixels than an unsharp lens.

I have seen Moiré just like yours, on finely detailed textured textiles. It's a pain to go over each image and selectively apply a Moiré filter in software.

Moiré is caused when the image projected by the lens out-resolves the sensor. As sensor resolutions have gone up this becomes less likely, explaining the disappearing AA filter trend. Any source of blur can act as an AA filter, including misfocus, motion blur, or diffraction limiting. It becomes increasingly uncommon for the stars to align in such a way to make moiré a problem.

But perhaps 20 MP is not enough Fuji avoids a lot of this by using their x-trans CFga

we need to see m43 getting a higher resolution sensor first

Ness Gardens

You can find moiré in this image if you look closely enough.  It’s not an especially sharp lens and the sensor has more Mpix than seems likely for an MFT sensor.  Indeed I’d be satisfied with slightly less Mpix on MFT.

Does it matter to me - no.  Does the lack of an AA filter produce better images - probably.

Andrew

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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 43,168
Re: That's what no AA filter + sharp lens gives.

ahaslett wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote:

Paul De Bra wrote:

An AA filter is simple a "blurring filter", but one that blurs just around the pixel level on the sensor. You do want the green and blue pixels to capture a bit of the light from the nearest red pixel when the light is pure green or blue, and then all the permutations of this. With a super sharp lens a perfectly straight one pixel wide horizontal or vertical line in one color can disappear completely from an image and a diagonal one can become a dashed line...

In almost all cases the slightest bit of unsharpness caused by a lens is enough to avoid the lack of an AA filter resulting in Moiré, but when you have a super-sharp lens it can be Moiré galore! I prefer having a super sharp lens + an AA filter over less sharp (consumer-grade) lens and no AA filter. The AA filter does a much better job at spreading light over just the adjacent pixels than an unsharp lens.

I have seen Moiré just like yours, on finely detailed textured textiles. It's a pain to go over each image and selectively apply a Moiré filter in software.

Moiré is caused when the image projected by the lens out-resolves the sensor. As sensor resolutions have gone up this becomes less likely, explaining the disappearing AA filter trend. Any source of blur can act as an AA filter, including misfocus, motion blur, or diffraction limiting. It becomes increasingly uncommon for the stars to align in such a way to make moiré a problem.

But perhaps 20 MP is not enough Fuji avoids a lot of this by using their x-trans CFga

we need to see m43 getting a higher resolution sensor first

Ness Gardens

You can find moiré in this image if you look closely enough. It’s not an especially sharp lens and the sensor has more Mpix than seems likely for an MFT sensor. Indeed I’d be satisfied with slightly less Mpix on MFT.

Does it matter to me - no. Does the lack of an AA filter produce better images - probably.

oh I am merely replying to why he said  I prefer no AA

Andrew

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