Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure

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Quarkcharmed
Quarkcharmed Senior Member • Posts: 1,084
Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
23

Similar tests have already been done before, my goal was to analyse the shutter shock and at the same time IBIS on a tripod as I'm mostly interested in the landscape photography workflow. My setup included:

  • Canon EOS R5 on a stable tripod indoors, no wind or shake
  • A printed chart for sharpness (mostly focused on its central part as we're not testing sharpness of a lens)
  • EF 24-7- f2.8L II lens
  • Variable source of light to even out the exposure and be able to shoot at f3.5

18 shots were taken using all combinations of the following settings:

  • Shutter speed [ 1/100s, 1/4s, 1s ]
  • In-camera IS: [ on, off ]
  • Shutter Mode: [ Mechanical, Electronic 1-st Curtain, Electronic]
  • Aperture f3.5 (fixed so that different aperture doesn't cause different sharpness)
  • Autofocus disabled (so that the camera doesn't refocus on every shot)

With electronic shutter the exposures were 0.5s instead of 1s but that wasn't the main goal of the test.

The conclusion:

  1. Don't use Mechanical Shutter unless absolutely necessary. The least sharp results came from 1/100s shots with Mechanical Shutter mode, with or without IS. The rest 16 shots aren't too different, the shutter shock seems to be negligible at 1/4s and 1s.
  2. IBIS during 1s exposure doesn't seem to introduce any significant blur (note the lens used in test doesn't have IS)
  3. EFCS and ES modes produce images of the same sharpness, but different quality (14bit vs 12bit), so there's no reason to use ES unless absolutely necessary (e.g. need to be very quiet).

So recommended setup for landscape photography on a tripod: EFCS and IS disabled, but if you forget to disable it, it won't cause bad consequences providing the lens doesn't have the IS itself.

Maybe I'll do more tests for very long exposures with different combos of IBIS and lens-IS.

Shot at 1/100s

1/100s, IS ON, MS

1/100s, IS ON, EFCS

1/100s, IS ON, ES

1/100s, IS OFF, MS

1/100s, IS OFF, EFCS

1/100s, IS OFF, ES

Shot at 1/4s (skipping Electronic Sutter mode as it looks the same as Electronic 1-st Curtain)

1/4s, IS ON, MS

1/4s, IS ON, EFCS

1/4s, IS OFF, MS

1/4s, IS OFF, EFCS

Shot at 1s (skipping the Electronic Shutter again for the same reason, also because it was shot at 0.5s)

1s, IS ON, MS

1s, IS ON, EFCS

1s, IS OFF, MS

1s, IS OFF, EFCS

 Quarkcharmed's gear list:Quarkcharmed's gear list
Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon EF 24-70mm F2.8L II USM Canon EF 16-35mm F4L IS USM
Canon EOS R5
45 megapixels • 3.2 screen • Full frame sensor
Announced: Jul 9, 2020
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Canon EOS R5
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rrc1967 Senior Member • Posts: 1,900
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
2

what am I missing?

EFCS should always be used unless you are using ultra fast lenses wide open over 1/2000th of a second or so shutter speeds.

I mean the reason EFCS exists is to eliminate shutter shock.

Quarkcharmed
OP Quarkcharmed Senior Member • Posts: 1,084
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
3

rrc1967 wrote:

what am I missing?

EFCS should always be used unless you are using ultra fast lenses wide open over 1/2000th of a second or so shutter speeds.

I mean the reason EFCS exists is to eliminate shutter shock.

EFCS also uses the curtain (the rear curtain). There was a question in another thread if it could be making some vibrations too. Also it was a comparison to fully electronic shutter.

Lastly, there was a question if the IBIS makes any difference in regards to a) shutter shock b) long exposures.

 Quarkcharmed's gear list:Quarkcharmed's gear list
Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon EF 24-70mm F2.8L II USM Canon EF 16-35mm F4L IS USM
Chris_Chapterten Regular Member • Posts: 264
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
9

Thanks for doing these tests, I can confirm I got the same results with my R5.

I made a request to Canon that they add automatic switching of shutter modes based on shutter speed. Maybe if enough of us request this feature they'll add it in a firmware update? Probably around the 1/1000 shutter would be a good switch over point.

Quarkcharmed
OP Quarkcharmed Senior Member • Posts: 1,084
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
4

Chris_Chapterten wrote:

Thanks for doing these tests, I can confirm I got the same results with my R5.

I made a request to Canon that they add automatic switching of shutter modes based on shutter speed. Maybe if enough of us request this feature they'll add it in a firmware update? Probably around the 1/1000 shutter would be a good switch over point.

Yes that seems to be reasonable, why not to have an option to automatically enable the mechanical mode at high shutter speeds and wide apertures, as described in the manual?

Also I wonder why there's no 14-bit ES mode. It increases readout time and introduces the rolling shutter effect, but in many cases (landscapes, architecture, studio portraiture) it doesn't matter.

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 18,358
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
2

rrc1967 wrote:

what am I missing?

EFCS should always be used unless you are using ultra fast lenses wide open over 1/2000th of a second or so shutter speeds.

I mean the reason EFCS exists is to eliminate shutter shock.

Doesn't EFCS mess with bokeh quality (i.e. cuts bokeh balls in half)

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

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rrc1967 Senior Member • Posts: 1,900
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
5

Quarkcharmed wrote:

rrc1967 wrote:

what am I missing?

EFCS should always be used unless you are using ultra fast lenses wide open over 1/2000th of a second or so shutter speeds.

I mean the reason EFCS exists is to eliminate shutter shock.

EFCS also uses the curtain (the rear curtain). There was a question in another thread if it could be making some vibrations too. Also it was a comparison to fully electronic shutter.

it wouldn't matter.

the rear curtain happens at the end of the exposure.  the reason shutter shock exists is that the first curtain causes the camera (or IBIS/IS) to vibrate at the BEGINNING of the exposure.

tomarse Regular Member • Posts: 216
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
1

rrc1967 wrote:

Quarkcharmed wrote:

rrc1967 wrote:

what am I missing?

EFCS should always be used unless you are using ultra fast lenses wide open over 1/2000th of a second or so shutter speeds.

I mean the reason EFCS exists is to eliminate shutter shock.

EFCS also uses the curtain (the rear curtain). There was a question in another thread if it could be making some vibrations too. Also it was a comparison to fully electronic shutter.

it wouldn't matter.

the rear curtain happens at the end of the exposure. the reason shutter shock exists is that the first curtain causes the camera (or IBIS/IS) to vibrate at the BEGINNING of the exposure.

That's what I think, too.

But, another piece of thought, if you do exposure bracketing, the rear curtain from the first exposure might influence the sharpness of the next exposure due to vibration?!

Marco Nero
Marco Nero Veteran Member • Posts: 7,141
Mechanical Shutter Vs Bokeh
10

sportyaccordy wrote:

rrc1967 wrote:

what am I missing?

EFCS should always be used unless you are using ultra fast lenses wide open over 1/2000th of a second or so shutter speeds.

I mean the reason EFCS exists is to eliminate shutter shock.

Doesn't EFCS mess with bokeh quality (i.e. cuts bokeh balls in half)

* Mechanical Shutter produces the best, smoothest, maximum bokeh.
* Electronic 1st-Curtain Shutter degrades the strength of bokeh SLIGHTLY.
* Electronic (Silent) Shutter also affects bokeh but it's VERY similar to the bokeh from Mechanical Shutter and you really won't see a difference... but it also introduces undesirable rolling shutter effects with fast moving subjects.
.
I've taken 4.000+ shots on the R6 with the Mechanical Shutter only... and two images appeared to show Shutter Shock. One was taken at 1/100 sec with IBIS on via Mechanical Shutter and the other was deleted by me without taking note of the settings. However, at 1/100 sec there would have been room for movement by me as I took the shot... of course, the IBIS ought to have caught and corrected this... hence it was likely shutter shock. The picture looked fine until viewed at 100%. The details were very slightly smeared via a subtle vertical movement, presumably from the shutter shock vibration. The image taken directly afterwards was at 1/200 sec and it was perfectly sharp.
.
I am not aware of EFCS affecting bokeh 'by cutting bokeh balls in half'... although I have read of this hypothesis (but have not yet seen examples).  I've taken handheld shots at 1/40 sec with an optical Image Stabilized 100mm lens on the R6 and had no issue.  Images were razor sharp with good bokeh using Mechanical Shutter.  I think Gordon "from Cameralabs" said the Shutter Shock affected his camera with IBIS off while on a Tripod at 1/100 sec.  He said Canon replied to his concern and said they were aware of the problem and may address it with a future Firmware update (which is likely).
.
* But to preserve maximum Bokeh, the Mechanical Shutter should be used.
* To reduce the chances of Shutter Shock, Electronic 1st-Curtain shutter is best.
* To eliminate the effects of rolling shutter syndrome, avoid Electronic Shutter for fast moving subjects.
.
* Only use Electronic (silent) Shutter only when you need to shoot in absolute silence or if you need to use 20fps (or similar when possible). Bokeh will be impacted.
* Mechanical Shutter is the ideal choice for MOST of your photography.
* Electronic 1st-Curtain is best for if you need to avoid Shutter Shock... but Bokeh will be impacted slightly.
.
Some related videos below which may explain...
.

-- hide signature --

Regards,
Marco Nero.

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Quarkcharmed
OP Quarkcharmed Senior Member • Posts: 1,084
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
2

rrc1967 wrote:

Quarkcharmed wrote:

rrc1967 wrote:

what am I missing?

EFCS should always be used unless you are using ultra fast lenses wide open over 1/2000th of a second or so shutter speeds.

I mean the reason EFCS exists is to eliminate shutter shock.

EFCS also uses the curtain (the rear curtain). There was a question in another thread if it could be making some vibrations too. Also it was a comparison to fully electronic shutter.

it wouldn't matter.

the rear curtain happens at the end of the exposure. the reason shutter shock exists is that the first curtain causes the camera (or IBIS/IS) to vibrate at the BEGINNING of the exposure.

The EFCS is designed to reduce the shutter shock, but does it? The second curtain is still moving and can (in theory) cause some shake. There were [anecdotal] reports it still happens in the R, 4ex https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64411688

My goal (well, one of the goals) was to confirm it's safe to use EFCS on the R5.

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Master619
Master619 Forum Member • Posts: 92
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
2

Chris_Chapterten wrote:

Thanks for doing these tests, I can confirm I got the same results with my R5.

I made a request to Canon that they add automatic switching of shutter modes based on shutter speed. Maybe if enough of us request this feature they'll add it in a firmware update? Probably around the 1/1000 shutter would be a good switch over point.

Over a similar thread on Fredmiranda some folks mentioned that Fuji and Nikon Z both have this already (EFCS up to a point then over that, mechanical). Hopefully it means 1. that is a possible and practical thing to implement and 2. It can be delivered through firmware update and not force us to buy the next R7/R8

Anyway, could you share how you made that request? I guess we have enough number to bombard the request site with more of this feature demand.

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Quarkcharmed
OP Quarkcharmed Senior Member • Posts: 1,084
Re: Mechanical Shutter Vs Bokeh
2

Marco Nero wrote:

settings. However, at 1/100 sec there would have been room for movement by me as I took the shot... of course, the IBIS ought to have caught and corrected this... hence it was likely shutter shock.

The IBIS is designed to reduce shake from hands. There are typical frequencies it dampens. There's no guarantee it'll work with the shake caused by the shutter curtains.

The picture looked fine until viewed at 100%. The details were very slightly smeared via a subtle vertical movement, presumably from the shutter shock vibration. The image taken directly afterwards was at 1/200 sec and it was perfectly sharp.

There's lots of variables/data noise is the measurements done in the field, ideally it's best to be done on a fixed controlled setup. I don't have an R6 so can't do the similar measurements.

* But to preserve maximum Bokeh, the Mechanical Shutter should be used.

As Canon says, only at some high shutter speeds. When the total exposure is long enough, there's no such effect. But how long exactly - I don't know. Probably has to be measured for each particular camera.

* To reduce the chances of Shutter Shock, Electronic 1st-Curtain shutter is best.

Probably the fully electronic shutter is the best in this case, because there's no curtain movement at all. But on the R5 it reduces the image quality and doesn't look very different from EFCS.

* Only use Electronic (silent) Shutter only when you need to shoot in absolute silence or if you need to use 20fps (or similar when possible). Bokeh will be impacted.

Is there any evidence the bokeh will be impacted in fully electronic shutter mode?

* Mechanical Shutter is the ideal choice for MOST of your photography.

For the R5, that's not the case in the light of the tests I've done. Evidently it causes significant shutter shock at around 1/100s, a very usable shutter speed so to say.

* Electronic 1st-Curtain is best for if you need to avoid Shutter Shock... but Bokeh will be impacted slightly.
.
Some related videos below which may explain...

That useful info, but note the videos are done with different cameras, and  and the camera in question is the R5 here.

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Chris_Chapterten Regular Member • Posts: 264
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
3

Master619 wrote:

Chris_Chapterten wrote:

Thanks for doing these tests, I can confirm I got the same results with my R5.

I made a request to Canon that they add automatic switching of shutter modes based on shutter speed. Maybe if enough of us request this feature they'll add it in a firmware update? Probably around the 1/1000 shutter would be a good switch over point.

Over a similar thread on Fredmiranda some folks mentioned that Fuji and Nikon Z both have this already (EFCS up to a point then over that, mechanical). Hopefully it means 1. that is a possible and practical thing to implement and 2. It can be delivered through firmware update and not force us to buy the next R7/R8

Anyway, could you share how you made that request? I guess we have enough number to bombard the request site with more of this feature demand.

Yeah, the fact that is available on other cameras hopefully means it is easy for Canon to implement.

I made the request via email, contacting the camera workshop of Canon Australia. You should be able to make a warranty request / claim through the Canon website as a starting point. This should lead to an email you can reply to, to outline the problem you are having (i.e. shutter shock). From there I would make the request for automatic shutter mode change.

rrc1967 Senior Member • Posts: 1,900
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
1

tomarse wrote:

rrc1967 wrote:

Quarkcharmed wrote:

rrc1967 wrote:

what am I missing?

EFCS should always be used unless you are using ultra fast lenses wide open over 1/2000th of a second or so shutter speeds.

I mean the reason EFCS exists is to eliminate shutter shock.

EFCS also uses the curtain (the rear curtain). There was a question in another thread if it could be making some vibrations too. Also it was a comparison to fully electronic shutter.

it wouldn't matter.

the rear curtain happens at the end of the exposure. the reason shutter shock exists is that the first curtain causes the camera (or IBIS/IS) to vibrate at the BEGINNING of the exposure.

That's what I think, too.

But, another piece of thought, if you do exposure bracketing, the rear curtain from the first exposure might influence the sharpness of the next exposure due to vibration?!

well that's actually a really good point. i just tried it here, and a 2 / 10 second timer only takes into account the first image.

You'd have to in theory do a remote release or electronic. if you are bracketting, you probably have more than enough DR room, so the loss of 1 EV probably is less problematic.

tomarse Regular Member • Posts: 216
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure

Master619 wrote:

Chris_Chapterten wrote:

Thanks for doing these tests, I can confirm I got the same results with my R5.

I made a request to Canon that they add automatic switching of shutter modes based on shutter speed. Maybe if enough of us request this feature they'll add it in a firmware update? Probably around the 1/1000 shutter would be a good switch over point.

Over a similar thread on Fredmiranda some folks mentioned that Fuji and Nikon Z both have this already (EFCS up to a point then over that, mechanical). Hopefully it means 1. that is a possible and practical thing to implement and 2. It can be delivered through firmware update and not force us to buy the next R7/R8

Anyway, could you share how you made that request? I guess we have enough number to bombard the request site with more of this feature demand.

Yes, X-T4 definitely has that. Not sure about my old X-T2, though. Even though the R5 is the better overall camera for me, there are some features on those cameras that would come in handy on the R5, too.

koenkooi Regular Member • Posts: 454
Re: Mechanical Shutter Vs Bokeh
2

Quarkcharmed wrote:

[..]

* But to preserve maximum Bokeh, the Mechanical Shutter should be used.

As Canon says, only at some high shutter speeds. When the total exposure is long enough, there's no such effect. But how long exactly - I don't know. Probably has to be measured for each particular camera. [..]

The consensus on the internet seems to be that 1/500s is the point where it starts to be noticeable.

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Chris_Chapterten Regular Member • Posts: 264
Re: Mechanical Shutter Vs Bokeh

koenkooi wrote:

Quarkcharmed wrote:

[..]

* But to preserve maximum Bokeh, the Mechanical Shutter should be used.

As Canon says, only at some high shutter speeds. When the total exposure is long enough, there's no such effect. But how long exactly - I don't know. Probably has to be measured for each particular camera. [..]

The consensus on the internet seems to be that 1/500s is the point where it starts to be noticeable.

Interesting. What aperture would that be at do you think? For example, would you notice worse bokeh shooting at f2 and 1/1000?

gium Senior Member • Posts: 1,614
Re: Canon EOS R5 - shutter shock, IS, long exposure
2

Thanks for the research and conclusions. I can adapt to that by switching between EFCS and mechanical, but it would be great if Canon would build what Chris_Chapterten proposed.

A year ago I read the same about the Sony A7r4 that has this same issue: https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riii-and-a7riv-shutter-shock/

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rrc1967 Senior Member • Posts: 1,900
Re: Mechanical Shutter Vs Bokeh
1

koenkooi wrote:

Quarkcharmed wrote:

[..]

* But to preserve maximum Bokeh, the Mechanical Shutter should be used.

As Canon says, only at some high shutter speeds. When the total exposure is long enough, there's no such effect. But how long exactly - I don't know. Probably has to be measured for each particular camera. [..]

The consensus on the internet seems to be that 1/500s is the point where it starts to be noticeable.

I don't think I've heard of a consensus that low. I though the sony's for instance only switch above 1/2000 or something of the sort.

Nikon limits the EFCS mode to a min shutter speed of 1/2000th on the Z's.

koenkooi Regular Member • Posts: 454
Re: Mechanical Shutter Vs Bokeh
1

Chris_Chapterten wrote:

koenkooi wrote:

Quarkcharmed wrote:

[..]

* But to preserve maximum Bokeh, the Mechanical Shutter should be used.

As Canon says, only at some high shutter speeds. When the total exposure is long enough, there's no such effect. But how long exactly - I don't know. Probably has to be measured for each particular camera. [..]

The consensus on the internet seems to be that 1/500s is the point where it starts to be noticeable.

Interesting. What aperture would that be at do you think? For example, would you notice worse bokeh shooting at f2 and 1/1000?

Till last week I didn't have a camera where I could switch between EFCS and FM, the M6II is locked at FM, the RP only has one curtain. I now have an R5, but no lenses faster than f/1.8. I'm eagerly awaiting the xmas holiday where I'm going to rent the RF f/1.2 primes again.

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