Canon EOS R6 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos

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bclaff Forum Pro • Posts: 11,544
Canon EOS R6 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos
27

Like the R5 there is some sort of Noise Reduction (NR) at low ISO settings (down triangle symbol). Here's the Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) :

Because of the NR it's a little hard to judge if there is dual conversion gain at ISO 400 or not; that is still under investigation but I suspect not.

Unlike the R5 I did not detect NR using electronic shutter on the R6.
Here are some of the 2D Fourier Transforms (pushed to enhance visibility):

Mechanical shutter all whole ISO settings

Electronic shutter first four whole ISO settings

Remember, "random" pattern means no processing.

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Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

Canon EOS R6
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MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 15,470
Re: Canon EOS R6 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos
2

Thanks for your work!

the years of long discussions about DR gaps between Sony and Canon have gone on mute

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juanmaasecas
juanmaasecas Senior Member • Posts: 1,338
Re: Canon EOS R6 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos

So the R’s DR is actually better than the R6 with ES... it’s because Canon lowers the bitrate for a faster readout of the sensor and reduce rolling shutter right?

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John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 24,395
Re: Canon EOS R6 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos
1

juanmaasecas wrote:

So the R’s DR is actually better than the R6 with ES... it’s because Canon lowers the bitrate for a faster readout of the sensor and reduce rolling shutter right?

You couldn't possibly have base-ISO DR with 12 bits that is equal to that at 14 bits with this sensor. The deepest shadows would be so severely posterized that the term DR would beg for an expanded definition. You need sufficient bit depth in a linear system to support a certain level of pixel-level DR that is noise-limited at the bottom end.

DR only starts making sense in the current definition when the black frame noise is at least 0.8 DN (preferably slightly higher in cameras with much spatially-correlated noise), and 12 bits with 14-bit noise in this case would be about 0.3DN.

William Woodruff Contributing Member • Posts: 764
Re: Canon EOS R6 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos

bclaff wrote:

Like the R5 there is some sort of Noise Reduction (NR) at low ISO settings (down triangle symbol). Here's the Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) :

Because of the NR it's a little hard to judge if there is dual conversion gain at ISO 400 or not; that is still under investigation but I suspect not.

Unlike the R5 I did not detect NR using electronic shutter on the R6.
Here are some of the 2D Fourier Transforms (pushed to enhance visibility):

Mechanical shutter all whole ISO settings

Electronic shutter first four whole ISO settings

Remember, "random" pattern means no processing.

Thanks, Bill, you da man!

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WLW

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OP bclaff Forum Pro • Posts: 11,544
Re: Canon EOS R6 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos
1

juanmaasecas wrote:

So the R’s DR is actually better than the R6 with ES... it’s because Canon lowers the bitrate for a faster readout of the sensor and reduce rolling shutter right?

It's not unusual for electronic to have more noise than mechanical.
In this case it's hard to judge the effect since they are doing NR for mechanical; and not for electronic.

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Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

Canochrome Regular Member • Posts: 351
Re: Canon EOS R6 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos

Thanks!

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Tom

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Tazz93
Tazz93 Senior Member • Posts: 2,775
No 13 Bit capture?

I assume the omission of the the H+ 13 bit plot means it doesn't share the R5's H+ processing? I don't remember the literature saying it had a 13 bit processing mode like the R5, but a lot of people were assuming it did.

However, its interesting to see the the R5's high speed (HS) plot looks very similar to the R6's base plot.

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OP bclaff Forum Pro • Posts: 11,544
Re: No 13 Bit capture?
1

Tazz93 wrote:

I assume the omission of the the H+ 13 bit plot means it doesn't share the R5's H+ processing? I don't remember the literature saying it had a 13 bit processing mode like the R5, but a lot of people were assuming it did.

However, its interesting to see the the R5's high speed (HS) plot looks very similar to the R6's base plot.

There is no H+ data because the person helping with the data collection didn't provide H+ files. I often only get mechanical shutter, which is my baseline, so having electronic too is already a plus.

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Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

gimp_dad Senior Member • Posts: 2,356
Re: No 13 Bit capture?

bclaff wrote:

Tazz93 wrote:

I assume the omission of the the H+ 13 bit plot means it doesn't share the R5's H+ processing? I don't remember the literature saying it had a 13 bit processing mode like the R5, but a lot of people were assuming it did.

However, its interesting to see the the R5's high speed (HS) plot looks very similar to the R6's base plot.

There is no H+ data because the person helping with the data collection didn't provide H+ files. I often only get mechanical shutter, which is my baseline, so having electronic too is already a plus.

Also, I don't think there is a difference between HS and HS+ in the case of the R6.  So no 13 bit mode. Just 14 bit for mechanical and EFCS or 12 bit for ES.

Quarkcharmed
Quarkcharmed Senior Member • Posts: 1,057
Re: Canon EOS R6 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos
1

bclaff wrote:

Like the R5 there is some sort of Noise Reduction (NR) at low ISO settings (down triangle symbol). Here's the Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) (...)

Thank you!

It's interesting that the R6's DR is roughly the same as 1DxIII which presumably has the same sensor

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%201D%20X%20Mark%20III,Canon%20EOS%20R6

Which may indicate the correlations you see don't actually improve the DR but are about something else. Maybe the same applies to the R5.

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gimp_dad Senior Member • Posts: 2,356
Take away: R5 beats them all
7

The R5 has a base-ISO DR that beats all Canon predecessors and most other FF cameras out there. The R5 13-bit mode is equivalent to the 14 bit mode of the R6 and 1DX3; and the R5 ES DR beats the ES DR of the R6 and 1DX3 substantially. All this while reading out 2.25x the number of pixels. The R5 really rocks!

Tazz93
Tazz93 Senior Member • Posts: 2,775
Re: No 13 Bit capture?

gimp_dad wrote:

bclaff wrote:

Tazz93 wrote:

I assume the omission of the the H+ 13 bit plot means it doesn't share the R5's H+ processing? I don't remember the literature saying it had a 13 bit processing mode like the R5, but a lot of people were assuming it did.

However, its interesting to see the the R5's high speed (HS) plot looks very similar to the R6's base plot.

There is no H+ data because the person helping with the data collection didn't provide H+ files. I often only get mechanical shutter, which is my baseline, so having electronic too is already a plus.

Also, I don't think there is a difference between HS and HS+ in the case of the R6. So no 13 bit mode. Just 14 bit for mechanical and EFCS or 12 bit for ES.

This was my understanding as well. Looking at some other market's documentation, the R6 didn't mention a differentiation, where the R5 did.

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Tazz93
Tazz93 Senior Member • Posts: 2,775
Re: No 13 Bit capture?
1

bclaff wrote:

Tazz93 wrote:

I assume the omission of the the H+ 13 bit plot means it doesn't share the R5's H+ processing? I don't remember the literature saying it had a 13 bit processing mode like the R5, but a lot of people were assuming it did.

However, its interesting to see the the R5's high speed (HS) plot looks very similar to the R6's base plot.

There is no H+ data because the person helping with the data collection didn't provide H+ files. I often only get mechanical shutter, which is my baseline, so having electronic too is already a plus.

Thanks for the time consuming work. Also thank your file donor for his or her time as well.

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OP bclaff Forum Pro • Posts: 11,544
Re: No 13 Bit capture?
1

Tazz93 wrote:

bclaff wrote:

Tazz93 wrote:

I assume the omission of the the H+ 13 bit plot means it doesn't share the R5's H+ processing? I don't remember the literature saying it had a 13 bit processing mode like the R5, but a lot of people were assuming it did.

However, its interesting to see the the R5's high speed (HS) plot looks very similar to the R6's base plot.

There is no H+ data because the person helping with the data collection didn't provide H+ files. I often only get mechanical shutter, which is my baseline, so having electronic too is already a plus.

Thanks for the time consuming work. Also thank your file donor for his or her time as well.

Yes, especially in these trying times, I rely on the help of others to perform these measurements. I'm still sifting through a little more data.

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Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

(unknown member) Regular Member • Posts: 468
Re: Take away: R5 beats them all

gimp_dad wrote:

The R5 has a base-ISO DR that beats all Canon predecessors and most other FF cameras out there. The R5 13-bit mode is equivalent to the 14 bit mode of the R6 and 1DX3; and the R5 ES DR beats the ES DR of the R6 and 1DX3 substantially. All this while reading out 2.25x the number of pixels. The R5 really rocks!

The R5 in ES mode is essentially an R as far as DR. If you need ES for high speed shooting then that's great, but if you need it for silent shooting, then there's no DR improvement story here.

gimp_dad Senior Member • Posts: 2,356
Re: Take away: R5 beats them all

highdesertmesa wrote:

gimp_dad wrote:

The R5 has a base-ISO DR that beats all Canon predecessors and most other FF cameras out there. The R5 13-bit mode is equivalent to the 14 bit mode of the R6 and 1DX3; and the R5 ES DR beats the ES DR of the R6 and 1DX3 substantially. All this while reading out 2.25x the number of pixels. The R5 really rocks!

The R5 in ES mode is essentially an R as far as DR. If you need ES for high speed shooting then that's great, but if you need it for silent shooting, then there's no DR improvement story here.

I'm not  a big fan of silent shutter with the R because there are precious few situations where silent shutter is absolutely needed while simultaneously being able to tolerate the 80ms rolling shutter of the R. To avoid artificial light banding and rolling shutter artifacts I've rarely used ES with my R.

And the new mechanical shutter of the R5 though extremely fast is quieter than most other mechanical shutters I've used. One shot with EFCS is not much louder than the aperture movements.

(unknown member) Regular Member • Posts: 468
Re: Take away: R5 beats them all

gimp_dad wrote:

highdesertmesa wrote:

gimp_dad wrote:

The R5 has a base-ISO DR that beats all Canon predecessors and most other FF cameras out there. The R5 13-bit mode is equivalent to the 14 bit mode of the R6 and 1DX3; and the R5 ES DR beats the ES DR of the R6 and 1DX3 substantially. All this while reading out 2.25x the number of pixels. The R5 really rocks!

The R5 in ES mode is essentially an R as far as DR. If you need ES for high speed shooting then that's great, but if you need it for silent shooting, then there's no DR improvement story here.

I'm not a big fan of silent shutter with the R because there are precious few situations where silent shutter is absolutely needed while simultaneously being able to tolerate the 80ms rolling shutter of the R. To avoid artificial light banding and rolling shutter artifacts I've rarely used ES with my R.

And the new mechanical shutter of the R5 though extremely fast is quieter than most other mechanical shutters I've used. One shot with EFCS is not much louder than the aperture movements.

I had the R6 for about two weeks, and the yes the EFCS and even mechanical puts the R to shame – very quiet and nice sound.

On the R, I had used ES for handheld landscape to minimize vibrations – probably not needed on the R5/6. Still, it would have been nice if there was a slower FPS ES mode on the R5/6 that kept the DR at the 14-bit level.

gimp_dad Senior Member • Posts: 2,356
Re: Take away: R5 beats them all

highdesertmesa wrote:

gimp_dad wrote:

highdesertmesa wrote:

gimp_dad wrote:

The R5 has a base-ISO DR that beats all Canon predecessors and most other FF cameras out there. The R5 13-bit mode is equivalent to the 14 bit mode of the R6 and 1DX3; and the R5 ES DR beats the ES DR of the R6 and 1DX3 substantially. All this while reading out 2.25x the number of pixels. The R5 really rocks!

The R5 in ES mode is essentially an R as far as DR. If you need ES for high speed shooting then that's great, but if you need it for silent shooting, then there's no DR improvement story here.

I'm not a big fan of silent shutter with the R because there are precious few situations where silent shutter is absolutely needed while simultaneously being able to tolerate the 80ms rolling shutter of the R. To avoid artificial light banding and rolling shutter artifacts I've rarely used ES with my R.

And the new mechanical shutter of the R5 though extremely fast is quieter than most other mechanical shutters I've used. One shot with EFCS is not much louder than the aperture movements.

I had the R6 for about two weeks, and the yes the EFCS and even mechanical puts the R to shame – very quiet and nice sound.

On the R, I had used ES for handheld landscape to minimize vibrations – probably not needed on the R5/6. Still, it would have been nice if there was a slower FPS ES mode on the R5/6 that kept the DR at the 14-bit level.

EFCS eliminates shutter shock concerns and is 14 bit. Although, I'll be surprised if full mechanical shutter has any significant shutter shock anyway. I don't remember running into it with my R even in the danger zone of shutter speeds.

That said, I'm not sure why they chose not to offer a slower readout mode with higher precision conversion. Maybe they just didn't want to offer a mode with the potential artifacts.

rednefed Contributing Member • Posts: 855
Re: Canon EOS R6 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos

Is the R6 imaging pipeline much different than the 1Dx3? There are some differences at lower ISO that seem outside the realm of measurement error. And the 1Dx3 doesn't seem to do low ISO noise reduction?

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