Question of Model Ethics

Started 4 months ago | Questions
jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,290
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Colin Creevey wrote:

jshen808 wrote:

You're a budding lingerie photographer right?

My advice is for you to do this lingerie photoshoot as planned.

Otherwise, how else you will get your experience and learn.

Also, don't make a big deal out of this, because the models knows each other, and rumors about a certain budding photographer spreads fast.

Again, my advice, keep things professional and friendly, and remember not to be so attached, just because you take their photos, you don't own these models.

Cheers!

Lingerie is just one of the outfits amongst others such as casual, formal etc.

I'm not too worried about reputation as another well known photographer is helping me with the shoot. I don't want to go too much into this point but the photographer is helping me work through the shoot as I have a permanent disability that impacts the way things are carried out. I care more about working with this specific photographer than this specific model.

My good friend photographer,

who is apro photographer ,

he have cerebral palsy,

so don't let disability prevent you from your photography endevors.

Cheers!

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jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,290
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Actually,

having a "good reputation" among the models is important,

because that's how you may get referrals and repeats,

and that's how you can build up your references.

Cheers!

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mrdale Regular Member • Posts: 241
Re: Not perfect, but acceptable

Back when I had a studio and did model shoots my game plan was to go with the model to pick out clothes, the model told in advance that I owned the items. After closing the studio I donated the clothes to a "used" clothing store that specialized in theatrical wear.  Also with rare exception I never shot the same model more than once.

dale

jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,290
Re: Not perfect, but acceptable

mrdale wrote:

Back when I had a studio and did model shoots my game plan was to go with the model to pick out clothes, the model told in advance that I owned the items. After closing the studio I donated the clothes to a "used" clothing store that specialized in theatrical wear. Also with rare exception I never shot the same model more than once.

dale

Good points!

But because I live in a smaller community,

I actually welcome repeats,

with different outfits.

Cheers!

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Mark_A
Mark_A Forum Pro • Posts: 16,125
If she was very organised ..
2

linux99 wrote:

What did you think she was going to do with the lingerie after you shot with it?

I hate to break it to you but models don't just lie around languidly during the day enjoying lingerie they get from shoots while their cat looks on admiringly.

She was going to shoot with it after you. That's why they like building up a little stock of stuff they can shoot in - to shoot in it!

You lost nothing here, so someone shot before you rather than after. Shrug - you still get your shoot.

Do the shoot - enjoy the pictures - and move on.

If she was very organised and perhaps a ruthless capitalist .. perhaps she got both the other photographer and you to pay for the lingerie   X2 .. I bet it would have crossed her mind! It would mine.

Mark_A

kierenlon
kierenlon Contributing Member • Posts: 836
Re: Question of Model Ethics

When money and business are concerned, set out clear terms and exceptions - ie have a contract for the work. That has to be equitable for both parties. It can also help with things like exclusivity / owning wardrobe, props or model not turning up / being late for a shoot.

If you are not experience with contract or the business side, there are some good books or you can seek to do a course.
FWIW - I have a friend who owns a lingerie brand - she gets bombarded by "models"  / "influencers". wanting freebies (however the polish / spin it.     Just chalk this one up to experience.

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Gato Amarillo Veteran Member • Posts: 7,133
Re: Question of Model Ethics
1

kierenlon wrote:

When money and business are concerned, set out clear terms and exceptions - ie have a contract for the work. That has to be equitable for both parties. It can also help with things like exclusivity / owning wardrobe, props or model not turning up / being late for a shoot.

If you are not experience with contract or the business side, there are some good books or you can seek to do a course.
FWIW - I have a friend who owns a lingerie brand - she gets bombarded by "models" / "influencers". wanting freebies (however the polish / spin it. Just chalk this one up to experience.

FWIW, I rarely use a formal contract but my communication with models always includes the phrase: "In return for posing and signing a release you receive ..." Just to make it clear that the model must sign a release to get whatever pay or compensation we have agreed on. Always good to put it in writing and get them to state that they agree, if only in a text or email.

It is always good to get a written release on any photos you plan to post or publish.

Gato

OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 220
Re: If she was very organised ..

Mark_A wrote:

If she was very organised and perhaps a ruthless capitalist .. perhaps she got both the other photographer and you to pay for the lingerie X2 .. I bet it would have crossed her mind! It would mine.

Mark_A

This was a possibility that had crossed my mind. 
I ended up cancelling her for a number of reasons surrounding the events described in this thread.  Communication had been slow with her and she chucked this up to being busy with life.  Originally I didn't have an issue with this as I know how busy life can be but upon reflection she was too busy to communicate with a client but not too busy to go arrange another shoot :/

OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 220
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Gato Amarillo wrote:

kierenlon wrote:

When money and business are concerned, set out clear terms and exceptions - ie have a contract for the work. That has to be equitable for both parties. It can also help with things like exclusivity / owning wardrobe, props or model not turning up / being late for a shoot.

If you are not experience with contract or the business side, there are some good books or you can seek to do a course.
FWIW - I have a friend who owns a lingerie brand - she gets bombarded by "models" / "influencers". wanting freebies (however the polish / spin it. Just chalk this one up to experience.

FWIW, I rarely use a formal contract but my communication with models always includes the phrase: "In return for posing and signing a release you receive ..." Just to make it clear that the model must sign a release to get whatever pay or compensation we have agreed on. Always good to put it in writing and get them to state that they agree, if only in a text or email.

It is always good to get a written release on any photos you plan to post or publish.

Gato

I do have a model release that I ask them on the day which states something similar.  Something along the lines of "In return for the compensation noted above the model....".  I guess the error I made in this case was expecting the model to do something that I (and a few other togs I have spoken to IRL) the correct thing.  I guess next time I just need to make it crystal clear.  One other user has a really good idea about stipulating a time frame that the model would not use those garments for other shoots for X amount of days.

OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 220
Re: Question of Model Ethics

kierenlon wrote:

When money and business are concerned, set out clear terms and exceptions - ie have a contract for the work. That has to be equitable for both parties. It can also help with things like exclusivity / owning wardrobe, props or model not turning up / being late for a shoot.

If you are not experience with contract or the business side, there are some good books or you can seek to do a course.
FWIW - I have a friend who owns a lingerie brand - she gets bombarded by "models" / "influencers". wanting freebies (however the polish / spin it. Just chalk this one up to experience.

Can you recommend a couple of books that would be good?  If possible, ones that would be relevant to photography.
I like the idea of stipulating conditions such a not turning up/being late.  Do you normally ask them to sign and return such a contract prior to the shoot or do you just send it to them so they know exactly the conditions of the shoot?

GodSpeaks
GodSpeaks Forum Pro • Posts: 14,310
Re: Question of Model Ethics
2

Personally, I supply the lingerie or other outfits for the models to wear.  If a model wants to being her own lingerie/outfit, that's fine with me too.

But I would never give the model money to buy lingerie.  You have no idea what she would buy and maybe it is not the type/style you were thinking of.

I usually buy directly from the Chinese factories, where you can get some very nice lingerie for only a few dollars.

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jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,290
Re: If she was very organised ..

Colin Creevey wrote:

Mark_A wrote:

If she was very organised and perhaps a ruthless capitalist .. perhaps she got both the other photographer and you to pay for the lingerie X2 .. I bet it would have crossed her mind! It would mine.

Mark_A

This was a possibility that had crossed my mind.
I ended up cancelling her for a number of reasons surrounding the events described in this thread. Communication had been slow with her and she chucked this up to being busy with life. Originally I didn't have an issue with this as I know how busy life can be but upon reflection she was too busy to communicate with a client but not too busy to go arrange another shoot :/

Sorry to hear about the cancellation with her,

would have liked to see some of your photos.

Cheers!

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MinAZ
MinAZ Veteran Member • Posts: 5,587
Pointless
1

Colin Creevey wrote:

Hi all,

I am still new to portrait photography so only have a few shoots under my belt and I am in a situation with a model that is making me feel a bit icky.

I reached out to a model and explained I wanted to do a shoot with her shooting her in a number of outfits including lingerie. She replied telling me her rate was X which is a standard rate for a model in my area. She explained she didn't have any lingerie but if I wanted to pay twice the amount (2X) then she would purchase some for the shoot.
I agreed and we proceeded. I have now found out she has gone and done another shoot wearing this lingerie before the shoot we have planned together.

On the one hand I know I do not own the model and I know that regardless she would have used her new lingerie to shoot with others after me. On the other hand, I can't help feel a bit sour. I just feel if she is going to do shoots with other togs using garments specifically purchased and paid for by me then maybe either of them should have covered the cost.
When I think about it logically I know I shouldn't be upset but for some reason I am emotionally upset. Is this conduct poor form or just normal behaviour for a model? If this is a red flag for other potential unprofessional behaviour I can still cancel the shoot and easily arrange to shoot with another model that I have worked with previously.

Thoughts?

In all honesty, this whole thing is just pointless from your point of view, wasted effort. Do not be upset, just shoot. Why? Because you gave her money for retail attire so it's not going to do one thing for your portfolio and esp. not matter if another photog took photos of it first. The only time I worry about such things is if I have an exclusive and then I take it seriously, bec exactly as you say, I don't want to get scooped. The simplest solution is as many have suggested to hang on to the clothing, usually the designer does that and most designers have a preternatural sense of the location of every scrap of clothing they bring to a shoot so you don't have to worry about it at all.

Also, if it matters have them sign an agreement and NDA, although again, prevention is better than cure since most models couldn't pay anyway. Or hire through an agency, then you can hold the agency to the contract.

But again, for a simple test shoot with clothing you bought on retail, I wouldn't worry about it.

tony field Forum Pro • Posts: 11,070
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Inappropriate for any normal model particularly if you paid for their services.

I find it odd that is a model would not have their own nominal lingerie particularly if they do any significant amount of shooting. If the model wants extra money to purchase lingerie and do you think is appropriate it would be your responsibility to go to the lingerie shop with the model and choose the lingerie that you would like to see. The lingerie is then obviously in your ownership.

The only time I would pay for model Services is if the images are for a commercial spread. For any creative shot I shoot only tfp. None of the ladies in my gallery were paid no matter what the shooting content was from Fashion to nudity.

I do have a small reasonable supply of clothing and of lingerie that I occasionally use. For a while I used to enjoy shooting the 1920s and have three or four appropriate outfits that I picked up from a costume shop. Reuse of wardrobe it's not a particularly good idea because that means you might get two or three different shoots with the same wardrobe. This does not work well with models since each one wants to be unique and not a cookie cutter girl.

Organizing wardrobe can often be an awkward endeavour since many models are not particularly fashion conscious. I am Fortunate in that I have a couple of wardrobe designers that I work with

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mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 58,913
Re: Question of Model Ethics

tony field wrote:

Inappropriate for any normal model particularly if you paid for their services.

I find it odd that is a model would not have their own nominal lingerie particularly if they do any significant amount of shooting. If the model wants extra money to purchase lingerie and do you think is appropriate it would be your responsibility to go to the lingerie shop with the model and choose the lingerie that you would like to see. The lingerie is then obviously in your ownership.

What am I missing in the conversation? From the original post I did not get the impression that he was buying the lingerie. I read that her rate was X without lingerie and 2X with lingerie. And the double rate was for her buy some lingerie. He chose the 2X rate and she bought some lingerie.

She buys the lingerie and he pays the rate.

The only time I would pay for model Services is if the images are for a commercial spread. For any creative shot I shoot only tfp. None of the ladies in my gallery were paid no matter what the shooting content was from Fashion to nudity.

I do have a small reasonable supply of clothing and of lingerie that I occasionally use. For a while I used to enjoy shooting the 1920s and have three or four appropriate outfits that I picked up from a costume shop. Reuse of wardrobe it's not a particularly good idea because that means you might get two or three different shoots with the same wardrobe. This does not work well with models since each one wants to be unique and not a cookie cutter girl.

Organizing wardrobe can often be an awkward endeavour since many models are not particularly fashion conscious. I am Fortunate in that I have a couple of wardrobe designers that I work with

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tony field Forum Pro • Posts: 11,070
Re: Question of Model Ethics

mamallama wrote:

tony field wrote:

Inappropriate for any normal model particularly if you paid for their services.

I find it odd that is a model would not have their own nominal lingerie particularly if they do any significant amount of shooting. If the model wants extra money to purchase lingerie and do you think is appropriate it would be your responsibility to go to the lingerie shop with the model and choose the lingerie that you would like to see. The lingerie is then obviously in your ownership.

What am I missing in the conversation? From the original post I did not get the impression that he was buying the lingerie. I read that her rate was X without lingerie and 2X with lingerie. And the double rate was for her buy some lingerie. He chose the 2X rate and she bought some lingerie.

She buys the lingerie and he pays the rate.

In its simplest interpretation I think that is a good summary of what actually happened

The only time I would pay for model Services is if the images are for a commercial spread. For any creative shot I shoot only tfp. None of the ladies in my gallery were paid no matter what the shooting content was from Fashion to nudity.

I do have a small reasonable supply of clothing and of lingerie that I occasionally use. For a while I used to enjoy shooting the 1920s and have three or four appropriate outfits that I picked up from a costume shop. Reuse of wardrobe it's not a particularly good idea because that means you might get two or three different shoots with the same wardrobe. This does not work well with models since each one wants to be unique and not a cookie cutter girl.

Organizing wardrobe can often be an awkward endeavour since many models are not particularly fashion conscious. I am Fortunate in that I have a couple of wardrobe designers that I work with

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OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 220
Re: Question of Model Ethics

mamallama wrote:

What am I missing in the conversation? From the original post I did not get the impression that he was buying the lingerie. I read that her rate was X without lingerie and 2X with lingerie. And the double rate was for her buy some lingerie. He chose the 2X rate and she bought some lingerie.

She buys the lingerie and he pays the rate.

Correct, originally I wasn't buy the lingerie because she said she was going to be getting a brand like Agent Provocateur(AP).  AP is very pricey so the additional money agreed upon wasn't going to cover the full amount but rather around 50% of the total cost.  What she ended up doing was going to a lesser, cheaper vendor and getting two sets (when only one was requested) totalling around 95% of the additional payment.  Had I known this I would have have opted for the option that offers have already suggested; that is, buy it myself which would have also worked out cheaper as I would only be buying one set.

mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 58,913
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Colin Creevey wrote:

mamallama wrote:

What am I missing in the conversation? From the original post I did not get the impression that he was buying the lingerie. I read that her rate was X without lingerie and 2X with lingerie. And the double rate was for her buy some lingerie. He chose the 2X rate and she bought some lingerie.

She buys the lingerie and he pays the rate.

Correct, originally I wasn't buy the lingerie because she said she was going to be getting a brand like Agent Provocateur(AP). AP is very pricey so the additional money agreed upon wasn't going to cover the full amount but rather around 50% of the total cost. What she ended up doing was going to a lesser, cheaper vendor and getting two sets (when only one was requested) totalling around 95% of the additional payment. Had I known this I would have have opted for the option that offers have already suggested; that is, buy it myself which would have also worked out cheaper as I would only be buying one set.

Where in the set price of 2X was it stipulated that it was for Agent Provocateur brand or any brand of lingerie? According to your first post it was just for lingerie as far as I can read.

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GodSpeaks
GodSpeaks Forum Pro • Posts: 14,310
Wow, those prices

I just checked the Agent Provocateur web site.  Those prices are ridiculous.  You really do need to investigate the Chinese factory outlets.  For example, AP has some corsets they list at over 400 EURO.  I bought some from China for about US$10-12, shipping included.

These are just for photos, you really do not need the highest, most expensive items available.

Check what's available on Lazada and AliExpress.  If you are not familiar with them, think of them as Asian Amazons.  And Amazon has a lot of lingerie too.

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OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 220
Re: Wow, those prices

GodSpeaks wrote:

Check what's available on Lazada and AliExpress. If you are not familiar with them, think of them as Asian Amazons. And Amazon has a lot of lingerie too.

I've already used AliExpress to start building up a small wardrobe. Never heard of Lazada but will check it out. Are those the places you mean when you mean Chinese Outlets? I've found AliExpress to be hit and miss and super slow ship times but that's completely fine with me as I just have to plan ahead.

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