Question of Model Ethics

Started 3 months ago | Questions
Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 196
Question of Model Ethics

Hi all,

I am still new to portrait photography so only have a few shoots under my belt and I am in a situation with a model that is making me feel a bit icky.

I reached out to a model and explained I wanted to do a shoot with her shooting her in a number of outfits including lingerie.  She replied telling me her rate was X which is a standard rate for a model in my area.  She explained she didn't have any lingerie but if I wanted to pay twice the amount (2X) then she would purchase some for the shoot.
I agreed and we proceeded.  I have now found out she has gone and done another shoot wearing this lingerie before the shoot we have planned together.

On the one hand I know I do not own the model and I know that regardless she would have used her new lingerie to shoot with others after me.  On the other hand, I can't help feel a bit sour.  I just feel if she is going to do shoots with other togs using garments specifically purchased and paid for by me then maybe either of them should have covered the cost.
When I think about it logically I know I shouldn't be upset but for some reason I am emotionally upset.  Is this conduct poor form or just normal behaviour for a model?  If this is a red flag for other potential unprofessional behaviour I can still cancel the shoot and easily arrange to shoot with another model that I have worked with previously.

Thoughts?

ANSWER:
This question has not been answered yet.
Autonerd Senior Member • Posts: 1,112
Re: Question of Model Ethics
3

I don't work with models, but I see how the ethics are questionable. My suggestion would be to let it go as a lesson learned and simply don't hire that model again.

Aaron

-- hide signature --
Donald B
Donald B Forum Pro • Posts: 17,261
Re: Question of Model Ethics
3

Simple solution. Ask her to show you what the other photographers shot and you shoot something a bit different. Learn from there images and improve on them. Then she will have confidence with your shots and not look at other photographers.

Don

-- hide signature --

Olympus EM1mk2, Sony A7r2
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1 em5mk1 em5mk2

Tim Reidy Productions
Tim Reidy Productions Veteran Member • Posts: 4,145
Not perfect, but acceptable
7

Colin Creevey wrote:

Hi all,

I am still new to portrait photography so only have a few shoots under my belt and I am in a situation with a model that is making me feel a bit icky.

I reached out to a model and explained I wanted to do a shoot with her shooting her in a number of outfits including lingerie. She replied telling me her rate was X which is a standard rate for a model in my area. She explained she didn't have any lingerie but if I wanted to pay twice the amount (2X) then she would purchase some for the shoot.
I agreed and we proceeded. I have now found out she has gone and done another shoot wearing this lingerie before the shoot we have planned together.

As long as she brings what she says she is going to bring then she did her part of bargain.

On the one hand I know I do not own the model and I know that regardless she would have used her new lingerie to shoot with others after me. On the other hand, I can't help feel a bit sour. I just feel if she is going to do shoots with other togs using garments specifically purchased and paid for by me then maybe either of them should have covered the cost.

It would be nice but there may not be an agreement.

When I think about it logically I know I shouldn't be upset but for some reason I am emotionally upset. Is this conduct poor form or just normal behaviour for a model? If this is a red flag for other potential unprofessional behaviour I can still cancel the shoot and easily arrange to shoot with another model that I have worked with previously.

The problem is you did not buy the garments yourself. you can do that as well.

Thoughts?

 Tim Reidy Productions's gear list:Tim Reidy Productions's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ200 Pentax K-3 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 Panasonic G85 Pentax K-7 +1 more
24IS
24IS Senior Member • Posts: 1,455
Re: Question of Model Ethics
3

You should buy the lingerie yourself.  You own it, and you keep it.

You can reuse it for another shoot.  After a wash cycle.

You may consider purchasing a large assortment of these garments, if lingerie is something that you want to do again.  Consider it to be an investment as important as any other in the field.

StarPortraits
StarPortraits Regular Member • Posts: 441
Re: Question of Model Ethics
2

These kind of models are naive at best. I have dealt with the drama for some time. At one time I was making good money and used to hire a model here and there. Now I am just getting together with a group to keep costs down. I would just shoot once and never hire her again so you don't lose out. Lesson learned.

 StarPortraits's gear list:StarPortraits's gear list
Nikon D700 Nikon D7100 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm F1.8G Sigma 17-50mm F2.8 EX DC OS HSM +1 more
OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 196
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Yeah I don't mind investing in garments for this exact reason.  The only thing I am iffy on is buying bras because unlike bottoms (which have some give) I am not sure how much wiggle room there is for sizing.

OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 196
Re: Not perfect, but acceptable

Tim Reidy Productions wrote:

Colin Creevey wrote:

Hi all,

I am still new to portrait photography so only have a few shoots under my belt and I am in a situation with a model that is making me feel a bit icky.

I reached out to a model and explained I wanted to do a shoot with her shooting her in a number of outfits including lingerie. She replied telling me her rate was X which is a standard rate for a model in my area. She explained she didn't have any lingerie but if I wanted to pay twice the amount (2X) then she would purchase some for the shoot.
I agreed and we proceeded. I have now found out she has gone and done another shoot wearing this lingerie before the shoot we have planned together.

As long as she brings what she says she is going to bring then she did her part of bargain.

And that's where I feel it goes into an even more grey area. Originally she said would purchase some Honey Birdette or Agent Provocateur.   Given the price point of these garments the additional I would be paying would be a minority of the garment cost.  Instead she went to a lower end shop and picked up two different sets.  Adding the cost of these sets means I end up paying for 90%+ of the lingerie.  
Similar to what another user said, had I known that I would be covering the majority of the cost I would have just purchased the garment myself.

I guess the other option I have is I could still shoot her and just not shoot the lingerie thus defaulting her back to the usual rate.

OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 196
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Yep lesson learnt although unlike technical lessons regarding lighting/posing, it's not one I rather make.  I guess the other option I have is I could still shoot her and just not shoot the lingerie thus defaulting her back to the usual rate.

jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 14,600
Re: Question of Model Ethics
1

I understand how you may feel.

My suggestion, keep things "professional", and don't be so "attached".

You don't own this model, and as long she uses the garments for your photoshoot, since you agreed to "buy" this for her, you don't own the garments either.

..

From previous photoshoots, I've seen photographers brings their own garments for the models to try and wear for their photoshoots.

So as been mentioned, if plan to do this for a long term, then maybe worthwhile to buy your own set of garments.

..

Cheers!

-- hide signature --

....................Cheers, John.....................
.....If I don't respond to your post,.....
...it means you're on my ignore list,..
...................words matter!...................

 jshen808's gear list:jshen808's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P610 Nikon Coolpix P900
jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 14,600
Re: Question of Model Ethics
2

Colin Creevey wrote:

Yep lesson learnt although unlike technical lessons regarding lighting/posing, it's not one I rather make. I guess the other option I have is I could still shoot her and just not shoot the lingerie thus defaulting her back to the usual rate.

You're a budding lingerie photographer right?

My advice is for you to do this lingerie photoshoot as planned.

Otherwise, how else you will get your experience and learn.

Also, don't make a big deal out of this, because the models knows each other, and rumors about a certain budding photographer spreads fast.

Again, my advice, keep things professional and friendly, and remember not to be so attached, just because you take their photos, you don't own these models.

Cheers!

-- hide signature --

....................Cheers, John.....................
.....If I don't respond to your post,.....
...it means you're on my ignore list,..
...................words matter!...................

 jshen808's gear list:jshen808's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P610 Nikon Coolpix P900
OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 196
Re: Question of Model Ethics

jshen808 wrote:

You're a budding lingerie photographer right?

My advice is for you to do this lingerie photoshoot as planned.

Otherwise, how else you will get your experience and learn.

Also, don't make a big deal out of this, because the models knows each other, and rumors about a certain budding photographer spreads fast.

Again, my advice, keep things professional and friendly, and remember not to be so attached, just because you take their photos, you don't own these models.

Cheers!

Lingerie is just one of the outfits amongst others such as casual, formal etc.

I'm not too worried about reputation as another well known photographer is helping me with the shoot. I don't want to go too much into this point but the photographer is helping me work through the shoot as I have a permanent disability that impacts the way things are carried out.  I care more about working with this specific photographer than this specific model.

OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 196
Re: Question of Model Ethics

jshen808 wrote:

From previous photoshoots, I've seen photographers brings their own garments for the models to try and wear for their photoshoots.

So as been mentioned, if plan to do this for a long term, then maybe worthwhile to buy your own set of garments.

I'm not sure if I previously mentioned it but that's another thing that has ticked me off. Originally she said should buy Agent Provocateur or Honey Birdette which would have meant my additional payment would have covered around 50% of the purchase cost for a single outfit.  Instead she went to a cheaper shop and got 2 outfits for pretty much the exact amount I paid extra.  If I had known this is what she would have done then I would have just purchased the garment myself for the exact reason you outlined.

JRP64
JRP64 Senior Member • Posts: 1,005
Re: Question of Model Ethics
2

I won't name the podcaster, but he's well known and I'll just leave it at that. I seen a video where the model brought the wardrobe to the shoot. I don't know if this photographer/videographer bought or help bought the wardrobe, but he let her pick out the clothes (a lot of it was lingerie). He overall didn't seem to care what she basically wore, just that it fit his overall theme of the shoot. He did his own style of photography when it came to using her for the photoshoot. If I were to guess, this particular model isn't exclusive to him and does other shoots for other photographers. (I could be wrong)

My point is use this model for the shoot and if you don't like working with her simply find another model. If you want to control want a model wears then get it in writing in a form of a contract.

 JRP64's gear list:JRP64's gear list
Sony a7R III Sony a9 Zeiss Batis 25mm F2 Sony FE 100-400mm F4.5-5.6 Sony FE 90mm F2.8 macro +5 more
Michael Firstlight Veteran Member • Posts: 3,997
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Do the shoot, and next time plan better - make any agreement in writing that has the appropriate restrictions, which you didn't do, so I see it as your failing, not hers since you didn't stipulate any restrictions on the use of the clothing you funded. Take it as a lesson learned.

MFL

-- hide signature --

The one thing everyone can agree on is that film photography has its negatives. It even has its positives and internegatives.

 Michael Firstlight's gear list:Michael Firstlight's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm F2.8G IF-ED VR +29 more
OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 196
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Oh it is definitely a failing on my part and something to learn from.  I didn't realise how much I really needed to stipulate things as I felt it was one of those things that is common edict.  Lesson learnt I guess.

linux99 Senior Member • Posts: 1,990
She was going to shoot with them after...
10

What did you think she was going to do with the lingerie after you shot with it?

I hate to break it to you but models don't just lie around languidly during the day enjoying lingerie they get from shoots while their cat looks on admiringly.

She was going to shoot with it after you. That's why they like building up a little stock of stuff they can shoot in - to shoot in it!

You lost nothing here, so someone shot before you rather than after.  Shrug - you still get your shoot.

Do the shoot - enjoy the pictures - and move on.

 linux99's gear list:linux99's gear list
Sigma DP2x Sigma DP3 Merrill Nikon Coolpix A Fujifilm X100T Sony ZV-1 +19 more
Gato Amarillo Veteran Member • Posts: 7,027
Re: Question of Model Ethics

As someone who does quite a bit of this kind of photography, my advice is do the photos, even including the lingerie if you want. Get the experience and move on.

The model was a bit out of line to work with the other photographer first. In the future you'll know to specify that you get the first shoot -- and you may want to specify that she not use the outfit with another photographer for a certain time after, maybe 90 days.

In my experience, neither models or photographers like to repeat an outfit between sessions -- it doesn't help either of their portfolios.

While this is annoying, my practical concern would be whether my photos look too much like the other photographer, or whether someone else got better photos with the same model -- and really that applies regardless of whether the outfits are the same. If you are just doing this for practice that may not be a big issue, but if you plan to post photos as promotional material it is a problem.

Gato

OP Colin Creevey Regular Member • Posts: 196
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Thanks, that's some good advise to take on board. Especially setting a condition like the 90 days.  Another pet peve of mine is that she has been really flaky on communication and she put this up to being busy.  So she's too busy to communicate with a paid client (myself) but not too busy to arrange shoots with others :/  
Either way, it's now resolve and the model has been replaced.

jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 14,600
Re: Question of Model Ethics

Colin Creevey wrote:

jshen808 wrote:

From previous photoshoots, I've seen photographers brings their own garments for the models to try and wear for their photoshoots.

So as been mentioned, if plan to do this for a long term, then maybe worthwhile to buy your own set of garments.

I'm not sure if I previously mentioned it but that's another thing that has ticked me off. Originally she said should buy Agent Provocateur or Honey Birdette which would have meant my additional payment would have covered around 50% of the purchase cost for a single outfit. Instead she went to a cheaper shop and got 2 outfits for pretty much the exact amount I paid extra. If I had known this is what she would have done then I would have just purchased the garment myself for the exact reason you outlined.

Ask for receipts,

that's how she gets reimburstments.

Cheers!

-- hide signature --

....................Cheers, John.....................
.....If I don't respond to your post,.....
...it means you're on my ignore list,..
...................words matter!...................

 jshen808's gear list:jshen808's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P610 Nikon Coolpix P900
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads