CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot

Started Sep 10, 2020 | Discussions
traderjay
traderjay Regular Member • Posts: 466
CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot
1

I finally got a CFExpress card (256GB + 512GB LEXAR) and they run HOT! I don't know what temp they run while in the camera but when copying files from the drive to the PC using the lexar CFExpress reader, they get so hot that even the reader is uncomfortable to touch. Ejecting the drive right after a transfer is even worse, I can barely hold it for a few seconds before putting it down on the table...

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starfly Senior Member • Posts: 1,110
Re: CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot
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It's known that CFe cards run hot. I do wonder how much this varies from brand to brand, or if they will all run equally hot. And I wonder how much the CFe cards contribute to the R5 heating issues.

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David Carlyon Contributing Member • Posts: 613
Re: CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot

I'm still waiting on my R5 that I ordered the first day, but my CFE card and reader came in right away. I ran a speed test and noticed the same thing. This was on a Hoodman reader, which is designed with fins to function as heatsink - not sure if that really helps! The speed-test would be running the card flat-out, though - I imagine shooting stills, even in big, fast bursts, it hopefully won't get that hot. 8k video at the highest settings probably will, though.

traderjay
OP traderjay Regular Member • Posts: 466
Re: CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot

Hopefully the card doesn't get that hot in the camera when recording 8K which is about 320 MB/s write speed. When I was pulling footage off card using the adapter, it was clocking at around 750MB/s plus.

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L_Speed87 New Member • Posts: 8
Re: CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot

Not a huge issue in and of itself.  Nand memory actually prefers to run hot, it works better when it does.  Operating Temps of 70C are normal, which is pretty darn hot to the touch.

RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Re: CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot
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L_Speed87 wrote:

Not a huge issue in and of itself. Nand memory actually prefers to run hot, it works better when it does. Operating Temps of 70C are normal, which is pretty darn hot to the touch.

Even though a water temperature of 110° F (43C) is 'relatively-safe', exposure can be painful; the human pain threshold is around 106-108° F (42C) ... A child can suffer a third-degree burn in 124°F (51C) water in less than three minutes. Children and adults can be burned this badly in two seconds or sooner in 149°F water .. A safer temperature for domestic hot water is below 50°C. This is because water at a lower temperature takes longer to cause injury. For example: At 60°C, it takes one second for hot water to cause third-degree burns.

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L_Speed87 New Member • Posts: 8
Re: CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot

RDM5546 wrote:

L_Speed87 wrote:

Not a huge issue in and of itself. Nand memory actually prefers to run hot, it works better when it does. Operating Temps of 70C are normal, which is pretty darn hot to the touch.

Even though a water temperature of 110° F (43C) is 'relatively-safe', exposure can be painful; the human pain threshold is around 106-108° F (42C) ... A child can suffer a third-degree burn in 124°F (51C) water in less than three minutes. Children and adults can be burned this badly in two seconds or sooner in 149°F water .. A safer temperature for domestic hot water is below 50°C. This is because water at a lower temperature takes longer to cause injury. For example: At 60°C, it takes one second for hot water to cause third-degree burns.

Exactly. Which is why i pointed out it's hot to the touch, but it's not really an issue from an operational standpoint.  Many people assume that because it's that hot to the touch, something may be wrong or that it's going to die a quick death.  I was pointing out that this isn't an issue as operationally, NAND memory has no issue running at that temp, it's part and parcel with the fast speeds you're going to get.

Whether your fingers enjoy touching it after a long transfer is a totally different issue entirely. One might want to wait a bit under such scenarios 

RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Re: CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot

L_Speed87 wrote:

RDM5546 wrote:

L_Speed87 wrote:

Not a huge issue in and of itself. Nand memory actually prefers to run hot, it works better when it does. Operating Temps of 70C are normal, which is pretty darn hot to the touch.

Even though a water temperature of 110° F (43C) is 'relatively-safe', exposure can be painful; the human pain threshold is around 106-108° F (42C) ... A child can suffer a third-degree burn in 124°F (51C) water in less than three minutes. Children and adults can be burned this badly in two seconds or sooner in 149°F water .. A safer temperature for domestic hot water is below 50°C. This is because water at a lower temperature takes longer to cause injury. For example: At 60°C, it takes one second for hot water to cause third-degree burns.

Exactly. Which is why i pointed out it's hot to the touch, but it's not really an issue from an operational standpoint. Many people assume that because it's that hot to the touch, something may be wrong or that it's going to die a quick death. I was pointing out that this isn't an issue as operationally, NAND memory has no issue running at that temp, it's part and parcel with the fast speeds you're going to get.

Whether your fingers enjoy touching it after a long transfer is a totally different issue entirely. One might want to wait a bit under such scenarios

The memory in the CFE and all flash cars is non volatile and by design relies on providing the semiconductor charge high enough energy to cross a charge high barrier to get into an isolated trap state in a controlling part of the storage bit cell. Going over this potential means it has to be supplied a significant power and the barrier has to high to prevent the charge dissapating from normal thermal energencies experienced.

So yes I agree the temperatures experienced in the hot CFE cards is normal and well within design tolerances. The card are within their thermal design envelopment for data retention but hot enough to potential cause burns during extended exposure particularly by children if held above 51 C for three minutes which is not likely because is quite unpleasant. It is also not likely because Canon this and it is part of their thermal management system to prevent burns that would result from a 60 C card. It is easy to see some difficulty the management system has keep humans, data collection, and camera components safe and in regimes of reliable operation for a 20 year product lifetime with zero regular maintenance.

So there is a distributed set of key locations the Canon software attempt to manage the temperatures of and I know of at least four and likely five serious hot spots that must occurs in some modes of camera operation. They do this with a temperature estimation thermal model and apparently three thermeter measure points. Not every danger has a direct thermal sensor and some of the areas are too small varied to put a temperature in. Particularly modeling the cool down operations is highly tricky as it requires data from all of the external case heatflow location of which there may be many and varied in locations. Knowing your sensors are cool is far from know all the sensitive components in the system are cool. Time is a factor there and fewer points are required if more time for reaching cooled equilibrium is allowed for.

We do not know know if all flash cards from different suppliers are exactly the same in their thermal ramp streaming write heating cycles. It is possible there are differences that may be only small from a perspective of camera writing time but this depends on the specifics of the cards and management firmware operation in the camera as well.

I own Sony and Lexar CF cards. Also Sony, Lexar and Prograde V90 SD cards. I do not have my R5 yet but I am now curious how long each will run under controled environmental experiments writing the highest speed video rates shown in the manual  within card specification for each card to observe the recording times vs manufacturer.

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gavin
gavin Veteran Member • Posts: 8,109
Re: CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot

Read the Lens Rental R5 thermal imaging article. The hottest part is the CFe.

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RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Re: CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot

gavin wrote:

Read the Lens Rental R5 thermal imaging article. The hottest part is the CFe.

There are many "hottest part" at issue here in the article if it is read carefully as have and will explain. The lens rental story does state "The hottest spot in the camera, though, was clearly the CFx slot. After the card was ejected it was about 48°C."

You are partially corrent in that elsewhere later in the article we learn "The CFx card slot was at 57°C and the internal temperature sensor at 61° C when things shut down."

However it is reasonable the temperature sensor source the EXIF data is presumably referring to the hottest spot mentioned in the article and it is at the temperature sensor which is at a location not known outside of Canon precisely but there has been plenty unconfirmed speculation as to it's location.

I suspect the temperature sensor may be close to the hottest spot which actually on the circuit board not too far from the temperature sensor.

The article mentions three different "hottest part".

The first was the statement: "The hottest part of the camera was the back behind the LCD door (43°C / 109°F), followed by the rear body around the command/set dials and the area of the grip where you rest your thumb (40°C / 104°F)."

The second was the statement "The hottest spot in the camera, though, was clearly the CFx slot. After the card was ejected it was about 48°C."

The third was the statement " The camera is hotter deep inside (the temperature sensor) than at the hottest exit points."

For the purpose of evaluating mitigating strategies to accelerate the heat exit transfer rate I chose the first stat the hotter part of the camera which is the only one of the three hot locations above that is fully on the exterior of the camera and the back behind the LCD has a large surface area attractive for facilitating large amounts of heat transfer. The CFE card is 5°C warmer which would be better for hear transfer but it's surface area is small and not easily assemble from it's mounted location inside the camera and behind a latched door.

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LesT
LesT Regular Member • Posts: 432
Re: CFexpress card runs HOT...like REALLY REALLY hot that you can't even hold it hot

Having had that very card in hand.... temperatures were the same between that and the SanDisk. You have the Delkin as well. Are they similar in heat? I found that reader very warm as well. The SanDisk reader is much cooler but it is a different build.

Pulled my SanDisk CFexpress out of the camera yesterday and noticed it was hot within the camera as well...not as... But noticeable.

So.... Unlike SD cards, CFExpress cards are built to dissipate the heat created through higher transfer rates to the outside of the card. It is actually a new challenge in the storage industry because we could put heatsinks on SSDs when transfer rates increased as they were not meant to be a removable platform like CFExpress. The difficulty with CF Express is that air pocket between the card and camera and card readers. The heat has nowhere to go.

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