AF-D Lens Hope

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
OP AdaptedLenses Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: AF-D Lens Hope
1

Also, shame Thom is gone, thought about emailing him but anyway...

What priorities do you see that should take preference? Not saying there are zero, but curious what folks think are more pressing?

Lens development is an easy answer, but seems a lot of that is optics which is going to be somewhat separate from mechanical/electrical engineering for an adapter like this.

So other than lens lineup holes what should Nikon's engineering priorities be?

Stavrosf wrote:

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/an-un-bashing.html

This is Thom Hogan view on the subject.

BTW, I don't have any D or non D screw drive lens any more (I used to have 24 AF non-D, 28 AF-D and 35 AF-D), but I agree with him, Nikon needs to give priority to other things.

Droster Senior Member • Posts: 1,127
Re: AF-D Lens Hope
1

AdaptedLenses wrote:

Also, shame Thom is gone, thought about emailing him but anyway...

What priorities do you see that should take preference? Not saying there are zero, but curious what folks think are more pressing?

Lens development is an easy answer, but seems a lot of that is optics which is going to be somewhat separate from mechanical/electrical engineering for an adapter like this.

So other than lens lineup holes what should Nikon's engineering priorities be?

Stavrosf wrote:

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/an-un-bashing.html

This is Thom Hogan view on the subject.

BTW, I don't have any D or non D screw drive lens any more (I used to have 24 AF non-D, 28 AF-D and 35 AF-D), but I agree with him, Nikon needs to give priority to other things.

It's just a simple matter of updating and refreshing the older lenses in native Z mount. The 16mm f2.8 fish eye and 200 f2 are some examples. There are also older G and even E lenses that need updating like the 300 f2.8, 400 f2.8FL and 800 f5.6. There are also exotic f1.2 primes like a 85 f1.2 and not-so-exotics like a 70-300 and new PF lenses in Z mount. And those are just what we laymen can think of. Who knows they may cough out something new like the 14-30.

Just making new lenses is indeed the easy answer. The FTZ is a stop-gap to bridge the AF-S lenses with the Z-mount. They have the sales data and probably decided to draw the line at AF-S for now and there are so many things they should do to flesh out the native lens line up ahead of doing a FTZs.

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OP AdaptedLenses Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: AF-D Lens Hope
1

Some fair points, but if they’re updating lenses they need optics updated which will slow stuff down. Some could be engineering only if they’re using same glass, but most of them need updates to be at the same level as the current glass. The 70-300 in native Z would be great. Anyway fair points.

Droster wrote:

AdaptedLenses wrote:

Also, shame Thom is gone, thought about emailing him but anyway...

What priorities do you see that should take preference? Not saying there are zero, but curious what folks think are more pressing?

Lens development is an easy answer, but seems a lot of that is optics which is going to be somewhat separate from mechanical/electrical engineering for an adapter like this.

So other than lens lineup holes what should Nikon's engineering priorities be?

Stavrosf wrote:

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/an-un-bashing.html

This is Thom Hogan view on the subject.

BTW, I don't have any D or non D screw drive lens any more (I used to have 24 AF non-D, 28 AF-D and 35 AF-D), but I agree with him, Nikon needs to give priority to other things.

It's just a simple matter of updating and refreshing the older lenses in native Z mount. The 16mm f2.8 fish eye and 200 f2 are some examples. There are also older G and even E lenses that need updating like the 300 f2.8, 400 f2.8FL and 800 f5.6. There are also exotic f1.2 primes like a 85 f1.2 and not-so-exotics like a 70-300 and new PF lenses in Z mount. And those are just what we laymen can think of. Who knows they may cough out something new like the 14-30.

Just making new lenses is indeed the easy answer. The FTZ is a stop-gap to bridge the AF-S lenses with the Z-mount. They have the sales data and probably decided to draw the line at AF-S for now and there are so many things they should do to flesh out the native lens line up ahead of doing a FTZs.

ZapperVT Contributing Member • Posts: 843
Re: AF-D Lens Hope
2

AdaptedLenses wrote:

Lens development is an easy answer, but seems a lot of that is optics which is going to be somewhat separate from mechanical/electrical engineering for an adapter like this.

Lens design involves a lot of mechanical/electrical engineering.  Take a look at one of Lensrentals' teardowns to get a glimpse of that.  And any electrical & mechanical engineers not designing lenses are surely busy designing new Z mount camera bodies (or maybe the last F mount bodies).

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OP AdaptedLenses Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: AF-D Lens Hope

Don’t disagree, and maybe I’m wrong but seems optics advancements are more the limiting factor in lens releases than the mech engineering. Thus (conceivably) there could be time in the release cycle to work on other projects.

ZapperVT wrote:

AdaptedLenses wrote:

Lens development is an easy answer, but seems a lot of that is optics which is going to be somewhat separate from mechanical/electrical engineering for an adapter like this.

Lens design involves a lot of mechanical/electrical engineering. Take a look at one of Lensrentals' teardowns to get a glimpse of that. And any electrical & mechanical engineers not designing lenses are surely busy designing new Z mount camera bodies (or maybe the last F mount bodies).

cosmicnode Veteran Member • Posts: 5,778
Re: AF-D Lens Hope
1

AdaptedLenses wrote:

Thom also says he’d like to see one some day. Personally I’ll be happy without the big annoying foot, and it saves non CPU Exif.

I also am of the opinion (and Thom’s is also an opinion albeit very well informed) that a screw drive adapter lowers the cost for entry to the Z system. Now with an excellent entry Z camera, let people use their screw drive lenses and “play” with Mirrorless. I get short term they can make more money elsewhere but still believe it’s beneficial long term. A lot of Sony’s success was built on its adaptability...

But that adaptability was towards Canon lenses, They even demonstrated with adaptors to other mounts when they launched the A7. The Z system is already more adaptable than any other system,  How many people buying a entry level camera have existing lenses?

Stavrosf wrote:

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/an-un-bashing.html

This is Thom Hogan view on the subject.

BTW, I don't have any D or non D screw drive lens any more (I used to have 24 AF non-D, 28 AF-D and 35 AF-D), but I agree with him, Nikon needs to give priority to other things.

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"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

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OP AdaptedLenses Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: AF-D Lens Hope
3

cosmicnode wrote:

But that adaptability was towards Canon lenses, They even demonstrated with adaptors to other mounts when they launched the A7.

That's mostly because Canon was all electronic and so adapting was more straight forward. And Sony was definitely in a different spot than Nikon was with a good stable of AF-S lenses.

The Z system is already more adaptable than any other system,

Yea, even Nikon likes to tout that, so shouldn't they back that up?

How many people buying a entry level camera have existing lenses?

A couple points here. The Z5 is their lowest grade camera, but it's not entry level in the way the D3000 is. It's an excellent camera by all reports. I'll have mine next week to compare to the Z6.

All that said, I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make (or I'm doing a bad job making it.) I'm not saying a soccer mom is going to go into Best Buy and get a Z5, then go buy a screw drive 35-105 AF-D. What I am saying is there are ALOT of Nikon DSLR users, plenty of whom likely have some screw drive Nikkors. Some might be classics they won't give up, like the 28/1.4D or 85/1.4D. Nikon is leaving an unnecessary barrier to switching by orphaning those lenses.

From a business standpoint I think it's a better long term strategy to ease the cost and effort of switching, and steadily work to upgrade their lenses than to fail to support them and force folks to buy new lenses. Yes you sell less lenses now, but if you get them on the Z body they might buy them in the future. If you never get them to switch you've got nothing.

Stavrosf wrote:

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/an-un-bashing.html

This is Thom Hogan view on the subject.

BTW, I don't have any D or non D screw drive lens any more (I used to have 24 AF non-D, 28 AF-D and 35 AF-D), but I agree with him, Nikon needs to give priority to other things.

nguyenhm16 Regular Member • Posts: 203
Re: AF-D Lens Hope
2

AdaptedLenses wrote:

All that said, I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make (or I'm doing a bad job making it.) I'm not saying a soccer mom is going to go into Best Buy and get a Z5, then go buy a screw drive 35-105 AF-D. What I am saying is there are ALOT of Nikon DSLR users, plenty of whom likely have some screw drive Nikkors. Some might be classics they won't give up, like the 28/1.4D or 85/1.4D. Nikon is leaving an unnecessary barrier to switching by orphaning those lenses.

From a business standpoint I think it's a better long term strategy to ease the cost and effort of switching, and steadily work to upgrade their lenses than to fail to support them and force folks to buy new lenses. Yes you sell less lenses now, but if you get them on the Z body they might buy them in the future. If you never get them to switch you've got nothing.

Yes, for these kinds of Nikon shooters who are contemplating the switch to mirrorless, switching to Nikon mirrorless should be the obvious choice, but it’s not. Once you open the door to switching to another mirrorless system, you risk losing that switcher for good.

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,890
Just a new model?
1

AdaptedLenses wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5851213370/sony-releases-new-a-mount-to-e-mount-lens-adapter-with-built-in-screw-drive-support

Technologically possible, let's hope this puts some pressure on Nikon to do the same with a AFDTZ to whatever they want to call it.

I believe Sony has had adapters like this for a few years now with the focus motor built into the adapter.  I don't pay close attention to Sony but I'm pretty sure that at least one of their adapters out of the LA-EA1, EA2, EA3, and EA4 models had an AF motor.

If my recollections are correct I don't see this new adapter putting any pressure on Nikon that wasn't already there.  Nikon just goes their own way.

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michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,890
Re: AF-D Lens Hope
3

I don't see an adapter like this as backward thinking at all.  Everything they do to promote Z adoption is forward thinking.  This adapter is a mechanical device with no optics to design.  It takes no lens design resources.

There is a limit to how much realistic resources can be put into developing the Z line of lenses.  It will be years before Nikon develops a full line of Z mount lenses.  When, for example, will I see a replacement for my 200mm f/4 micro D lens?

And I would venture to guess that there are some that would prefer to use their D lenses simply because they are smaller and lighter than the new behemoth lens designs that seem to be all the rage now.  A 50mm f/1.8D even with FTZ is smaller and lighter than the S lens (still sells new for a fraction of the price).  Sure, you sacrifice some optical quality.  But edge to edge sharpness isn't everything in a lens.

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OP AdaptedLenses Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: AF-D Lens Hope
2

nguyenhm16 wrote:

AdaptedLenses wrote:

All that said, I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make (or I'm doing a bad job making it.) I'm not saying a soccer mom is going to go into Best Buy and get a Z5, then go buy a screw drive 35-105 AF-D. What I am saying is there are ALOT of Nikon DSLR users, plenty of whom likely have some screw drive Nikkors. Some might be classics they won't give up, like the 28/1.4D or 85/1.4D. Nikon is leaving an unnecessary barrier to switching by orphaning those lenses.

From a business standpoint I think it's a better long term strategy to ease the cost and effort of switching, and steadily work to upgrade their lenses than to fail to support them and force folks to buy new lenses. Yes you sell less lenses now, but if you get them on the Z body they might buy them in the future. If you never get them to switch you've got nothing.

Yes, for these kinds of Nikon shooters who are contemplating the switch to mirrorless, switching to Nikon mirrorless should be the obvious choice, but it’s not. Once you open the door to switching to another mirrorless system, you risk losing that switcher for good.

Buuuut you're making my point for me. Give them the tools to use their lenses on a Z camera, and no other platform can compete with that. Don't give them that and all mirrorless is on an even footing and they have to buy new lenses anyway. So give your Z a leg up.

OP AdaptedLenses Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: Just a new model?
2

You can ignore the EA1 & 2 they were just APS-C variants of what the 3&4 were. The EA3 was for SAM / SSM lenses only (in lens motors) and relied on the camera's AF. You're correct the LA-EA4 supported screw drive lenses, but it was A) HUGE and B) it had its own AF sensor in it that replaced the camera's AF. Which meant as mirrorless PDAF advanced, all that was lost by using an 8+- year of AF sensor.

The LA-EA5 adds modern PDAF to old screw drive lenses. Most Sony users didn't really consider the LA-EA4 viable for the above reasons, but there seems to be excitement about this 5 and some of the venerable Minolta lenses.

That said, you're right that really doesn't put extra pressure on Nikon.

michaeladawson wrote:

AdaptedLenses wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5851213370/sony-releases-new-a-mount-to-e-mount-lens-adapter-with-built-in-screw-drive-support

Technologically possible, let's hope this puts some pressure on Nikon to do the same with a AFDTZ to whatever they want to call it.

I believe Sony has had adapters like this for a few years now with the focus motor built into the adapter. I don't pay close attention to Sony but I'm pretty sure that at least one of their adapters out of the LA-EA1, EA2, EA3, and EA4 models had an AF motor.

If my recollections are correct I don't see this new adapter putting any pressure on Nikon that wasn't already there. Nikon just goes their own way.

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,890
Re: Just a new model?
3

Yes.  Don't misinterpret what I said though.  I would welcome an updated FTZ adapter that properly supports D lenses.  I would love to be able to use my 200mm micro D lens on my Z7.

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Richard B99 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,035
Re: AF-D Lens Hope
2

AdaptedLenses wrote:

nguyenhm16 wrote:

AdaptedLenses wrote:

All that said, I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make (or I'm doing a bad job making it.) I'm not saying a soccer mom is going to go into Best Buy and get a Z5, then go buy a screw drive 35-105 AF-D. What I am saying is there are ALOT of Nikon DSLR users, plenty of whom likely have some screw drive Nikkors. Some might be classics they won't give up, like the 28/1.4D or 85/1.4D. Nikon is leaving an unnecessary barrier to switching by orphaning those lenses.

From a business standpoint I think it's a better long term strategy to ease the cost and effort of switching, and steadily work to upgrade their lenses than to fail to support them and force folks to buy new lenses. Yes you sell less lenses now, but if you get them on the Z body they might buy them in the future. If you never get them to switch you've got nothing.

Yes, for these kinds of Nikon shooters who are contemplating the switch to mirrorless, switching to Nikon mirrorless should be the obvious choice, but it’s not. Once you open the door to switching to another mirrorless system, you risk losing that switcher for good.

Buuuut you're making my point for me. Give them the tools to use their lenses on a Z camera, and no other platform can compete with that. Don't give them that and all mirrorless is on an even footing and they have to buy new lenses anyway. So give your Z a leg up.

I’d argue that Nikon did give us the tools to use D lenses on the Z’s. Sure, they don’t autofocus but, boy, focus peaking makes it really easy.  I’ve a couple of D lenses (105 macro and 24 f2.8) and they are much more usable. I suspect that many folk with D lenses (like me perhaps) are not strangers to manual focussing and will find it a pleasant surprise to use these lenses on a Z!  Focus peaking really allows you to hone into where you want the focus point quickly. 
True, Nikon don’t go out of their way to explain this (nothing unusual there then) but they could and it’s easily good enough for the slower work on these old lenses (much better than the old micro/split prism ground glass screens. Do I use them much? Well, no.  Especially when I need fast focussing long lenses for wildlife.  But they are very usable.  AF screw lenses are overrated for their AF - Canon got it right there much earlier on. I think, the Z’s actually do now give them a new lease of life.

The Z lenses are in an entirely different class though.

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