Still not happy with the D850 AF

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
DAVID MANZE Veteran Member • Posts: 6,270
No AF in lens tests .........
3

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

DAVID MANZE wrote:

see here Optical Limits review: ..... under bokeh fringing

https://www.opticallimits.com/nikon_ff/998-nikkorafs10514ff?start=1

It can be clearly seen the point of focus wide open is (100) ....... even given the increasing DOF when stopping down focus cannot hold the "100" in focus .........

It is clear to many focussing on a single line (as distinct from a single edge) - which seems the basis of the test - is not always reliable.

Oh Leonard, ......... really , ....... this is from "Optical limits" lens testing site ......

........ "No AF" is used in lens resolution testing on this site!

........... all lens testing from "Optical limits" is ..... manually focused in magnified LV  ....... removing AF errors

.......... not only that, it is clear to see the the "1" of 100 is green ...... and the second 0 of 100 is red ...... therefore "perfectly focused" ....... (longitudinal aberrations)

... for the the bokeh/ focus shift test ...... the lens is only focused "once" in LV at F1.4  !! ............. the lens focus ring is then fixed in the position and a series of images set to F2 ..F2.8 .. F4 ... F5.6 etc are taken ......

........ clearly showing the focus shift when stopping down!! ..... (from spherical aberrations)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/124690178@N08/

-- hide signature --

Dave's clichés

 DAVID MANZE's gear list:DAVID MANZE's gear list
Nikon D750 Nikon D500 Nikon AF Nikkor 24mm f/2.8D Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D +16 more
Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 20,340
Re: No AF in lens tests .........
1

DAVID MANZE wrote:

.

It is clear to many focussing on a single line (as distinct from a single edge) - which seems the basis of the test - is not always reliable.

Oh Leonard, ......... really , ....... this is from "Optical limits" lens testing site ......

I am part referring to Nikon's fine tune guidance for the D5, D850 and D500 - and that certainly up to the D810 it was easy to induce 2 different front focus results, 2 different back focus results and a correct result in just 5 images - using the central AF point on a single line on an angled subject.

Anybody can propound any test methodology they want - though generally some types of subject are unsuitable for consistent accuracy either with phase detect or contrast detect AF.

-- hide signature --

Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

 Leonard Shepherd's gear list:Leonard Shepherd's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon Z7 Nikon D500 Nikon D850 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +28 more
mais51
mais51 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,431
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

Nils wrote:

I have been shooting with the D850 (three in total) since it release. I have a huge line up on lenses I love. Especially the 200mm 2.0, 400mm 2.8 and the incredible 105mm 1.4

I have tried so many solutions on the AF problems. Different AF Shift on different Apertures with the same lens! E.g. I adjust the backfocus on the 105mm at 1.4, but at 2.8 it needs a different back focus adjustment.

Now with Sony and Canon really being able to handle this with their newest cams ( the Canon r5 AF looks incredible) and the Z-Series of Nikon not really an upgrade it is really tough for me to wait, especially with Nikon about to go broke

What to do? I am really hoping for a Nikon Z8 or something, which is probably earliest end of 2021 (until then they will be out of business imho)

Thanks for any thoughts!

Get a Sony

Seem everyone is happy with this brand

 mais51's gear list:mais51's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon 85mm F1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm F1.4G +7 more
mais51
mais51 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,431
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF
2

Antal I Kozma wrote:

Nils, you are a very unlucky photographer. I feel for you.

You see none of the three D850 bodies work for you in your business, that is bad. I have only one but touch wood it works as expected. I am a photographer too although I retired from commercial shooting after spending forty-five years or so behind the camera. Now I only shoot for pleasure, since my small retired business is wildlife and nature photography.

I am so glad that my D850 works without a hiccup alongside my D500 which is also very good. If I may give you some advice please..... You are running a business, you cannot afford having three bad cameras to work with. You will go out of business if you do that. So, why do not you sell those inferior cameras alongside with your Nikkor lenses? You will get a decent sum of money for them. Some folks with lesser expectations and need may see good use out of those D850 cameras.

Then you could invest into the new Canon R5 and a couple of good lenses. Therefore, you would not have to wait for that Nikon Z8 which will come some time in the future and its specs are unknown as of yet. The Canon is here, lenses for it are here, you cannot lose on the change. Your number one priority has to be having a good tool so that you can shoot your assignments without worrying about your gear.

With best regards, AIK

Canon forum users - I feel sorry for them - soon.

 mais51's gear list:mais51's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon 85mm F1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm F1.4G +7 more
mais51
mais51 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,431
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

JohnnyLuddite wrote:

Ok. I'm questioning the assertion:

"You can try 6 or 7 x D850 and only one of them a good copy."

This is not supported by the specific instance of the OP, let alone anything remotely credible more generally.

Yeah, one of them - randomly

 mais51's gear list:mais51's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon 85mm F1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm F1.4G +7 more
Yxa
Yxa Senior Member • Posts: 2,530
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

mais51 wrote:

Nils wrote:

I have been shooting with the D850 (three in total) since it release. I have a huge line up on lenses I love. Especially the 200mm 2.0, 400mm 2.8 and the incredible 105mm 1.4

I have tried so many solutions on the AF problems. Different AF Shift on different Apertures with the same lens! E.g. I adjust the backfocus on the 105mm at 1.4, but at 2.8 it needs a different back focus adjustment.

Now with Sony and Canon really being able to handle this with their newest cams ( the Canon r5 AF looks incredible) and the Z-Series of Nikon not really an upgrade it is really tough for me to wait, especially with Nikon about to go broke

What to do? I am really hoping for a Nikon Z8 or something, which is probably earliest end of 2021 (until then they will be out of business imho)

Thanks for any thoughts!

Get a Sony

Seem everyone is happy with this brand

Good irony

Antal I Kozma
Antal I Kozma Veteran Member • Posts: 3,280
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF
3

mais51 wrote:

Antal I Kozma wrote:

Nils, you are a very unlucky photographer. I feel for you.

You see none of the three D850 bodies work for you in your business, that is bad. I have only one but touch wood it works as expected. I am a photographer too although I retired from commercial shooting after spending forty-five years or so behind the camera. Now I only shoot for pleasure, since my small retired business is wildlife and nature photography.

I am so glad that my D850 works without a hiccup alongside my D500 which is also very good. If I may give you some advice please..... You are running a business, you cannot afford having three bad cameras to work with. You will go out of business if you do that. So, why do not you sell those inferior cameras alongside with your Nikkor lenses? You will get a decent sum of money for them. Some folks with lesser expectations and need may see good use out of those D850 cameras.

Then you could invest into the new Canon R5 and a couple of good lenses. Therefore, you would not have to wait for that Nikon Z8 which will come some time in the future and its specs are unknown as of yet. The Canon is here, lenses for it are here, you cannot lose on the change. Your number one priority has to be having a good tool so that you can shoot your assignments without worrying about your gear.

With best regards, AIK

Canon forum users - I feel sorry for them - soon.

Holy aperture........   What are you implying?????????.........   Canons have been always perfect for disappointed Nikon users............   I would  switch too if my D850 would not work. Unfortunately it is not the case, so I am "stuck" with it.............

Best, AIK

 Antal I Kozma's gear list:Antal I Kozma's gear list
Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm F2.8G IF-ED VR Phase One Capture One Pro Nikon D500 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED +20 more
briantilley
briantilley Veteran Member • Posts: 5,068
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF
5

Robert 23 wrote:

Wise words. Sometimes things like that happen. You can try 6 or 7 x D850 and only one of them a good copy.

Another assertion completely unsupported by actual evidence.

I think this never happens with Sony and Canon though.

I doubt anyone here is interested in what you "think".

That was the reason that this guy got rid all of his Nikon gear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBze_NAdjmI&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR02CZkPsPcLTFB1P__qQ7w0qnFKVclifdJdWuUpbSF_E4OILUlaBp6Wrrs

If you actually watch the video, there is no suggestion from Matt Grainger that extreme sample variation (which is what you are claiming) had anything to do with his decision to go in a different direction.

 briantilley's gear list:briantilley's gear list
Nikon Df Nikon Z6 Nikon Z7 Nikkor AF-S 300mm f/4E PF ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Special Edition +20 more
Nils
OP Nils Senior Member • Posts: 1,158
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

https://www.opticallimits.com/nikon_ff/998-nikkorafs10514ff?start=1

It can be clearly seen the point of focus wide open is (100) ....... even given the increasing DOF when stopping down focus cannot hold the "100" in focus .........

........ quite a slip up from Nikon.

Great link. Appreciate it. Thanks!

You are spot on with your POV btw!

-- hide signature --

4FR-Photography
http://www.4FR.de

Nils
OP Nils Senior Member • Posts: 1,158
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

"Nailing the eye with a lens that shifts focus on a portrait lens that is designed especially to do that specific job......... is a slight irritation when changing apertures .........."

Yes. I really really hope Nikon comes up with a similar "eye-tracking" AF. As what I have seen from Canon and even the 2 year old Sony was very promising!

-- hide signature --

4FR-Photography
http://www.4FR.de

Nils
OP Nils Senior Member • Posts: 1,158
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

Thanks Eric for your kind words! The work on my HP is almost 10 years old by now

I always have a hard time sending in gear, especially my D850s as I love shooting with my 200mm 2.0 and the brilliant 400mm 2.8 which are most of the time spot on! I had several issues that after return it wasn't spot on any more with the longer lenses.

-- hide signature --

4FR-Photography
http://www.4FR.de

Nils
OP Nils Senior Member • Posts: 1,158
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

Thank you for your POV!

I just came off the phone with Nikon and they told me that the Z System will fix my issues....well....duuuuh

Like mentioned here before I think I just expect 100% from a $2000 dollar 1.4 lens /2.0 lens

-- hide signature --

4FR-Photography
http://www.4FR.de

Nils
OP Nils Senior Member • Posts: 1,158
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

I have actually worked a lot with sony. They would even sponsor my complete gear, but I have not been a fan of their Menus and Battery Life.

-- hide signature --

4FR-Photography
http://www.4FR.de

Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 20,340
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

Nils wrote:

https://www.opticallimits.com/nikon_ff/998-nikkorafs10514ff?start=1

It can be clearly seen the point of focus wide open is (100) ....... even given the increasing DOF when stopping down focus cannot hold the "100" in focus .........

........ quite a slip up from Nikon.

Great link. Appreciate it. Thanks!

You are spot on with your POV btw!

Or perhaps not 

If starting AF from infinity, AF can lock on the first area with sufficient contrast for the AF to detect within the depth of field.

As dof increases as the lens is stopped, when using a 45 degree ruler with AF started further away than the 100 mark there can be (and sometimes is) enough contrast within the dof for AF to lock on before it gets as close as the intendeds 100 mark on the ruler.

If starting from minimum focus, as the lens is stopped down there can be enough contrast for AF to lock on in front of the 100 mark.

Put another way - the only reliable way to test AF is with AF aimed at a subject parallel to the sensor.

-- hide signature --

Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

 Leonard Shepherd's gear list:Leonard Shepherd's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon Z7 Nikon D500 Nikon D850 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +28 more
jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 14,529
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

Nils wrote:

https://www.opticallimits.com/nikon_ff/998-nikkorafs10514ff?start=1

It can be clearly seen the point of focus wide open is (100) ....... even given the increasing DOF when stopping down focus cannot hold the "100" in focus .........

........ quite a slip up from Nikon.

Great link. Appreciate it. Thanks!

You are spot on with your POV btw!

Or perhaps not

If starting AF from infinity, AF can lock on the first area with sufficient contrast for the AF to detect within the depth of field.

As dof increases as the lens is stopped, when using a 45 degree ruler with AF started further away than the 100 mark there can be (and sometimes is) enough contrast within the dof for AF to lock on before it gets as close as the intendeds 100 mark on the ruler.

If starting from minimum focus, as the lens is stopped down there can be enough contrast for AF to lock on in front of the 100 mark.

Put another way - the only reliable way to test AF is with AF aimed at a subject parallel to the sensor.

Right!

Like the below example.

..

Cheers!

-- hide signature --

....................Cheers, John.....................
.....If I don't respond to your post,.....
...it means you're on my ignore list...

 jshen808's gear list:jshen808's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P610 Nikon Coolpix P900
Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 20,340
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

jshen808 wrote:

Put another way - the only reliable way to test AF is with AF aimed at a subject parallel to the sensor.

Right!

Like the below example.

..

Cheers!

I could - and perhaps should have added - with a first class AF subject.

This system is not as bad as a 45 degree ruler - but I am satisfied can still lead to moderately incorrect readings 

The problem is the centre of the target is similar to a geometric pattern when, if the AF point is not perfectly centred, AF can focus a little closer or a little further away than intended.

This is why Nikon caution AF may not be accurate with a geometric pattern.

The Nikon subject for checking D850 AF is a single black/white edge parallel to the short dimension of the frame.

The short dimension of the frame is important as the Nikon D850 (also D500 and D5) uses LiveView focus (which works best with detail parallel to the frame short dimension) as the starting point for checking phase detect AF accuracy.

On the one hand there is no need to buy anything to check focus accuracy with a D850, and on the other hand the Nikon method can only check phase detect accuracy with the central AF point.

-- hide signature --

Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

 Leonard Shepherd's gear list:Leonard Shepherd's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon Z7 Nikon D500 Nikon D850 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +28 more
Sagittarius Veteran Member • Posts: 6,871
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

jshen808 wrote:

Put another way - the only reliable way to test AF is with AF aimed at a subject parallel to the sensor.

Right!

Like the below example.

..

Cheers!

I could - and perhaps should have added - with a first class AF subject.

This system is not as bad as a 45 degree ruler - but I am satisfied can still lead to moderately incorrect readings

The problem is the centre of the target is similar to a geometric pattern when, if the AF point is not perfectly centred, AF can focus a little closer or a little further away than intended.

This is why Nikon caution AF may not be accurate with a geometric pattern.

The Nikon subject for checking D850 AF is a single black/white edge parallel to the short dimension of the frame.

The short dimension of the frame is important as the Nikon D850 (also D500 and D5) uses LiveView focus (which works best with detail parallel to the frame short dimension) as the starting point for checking phase detect AF accuracy.

On the one hand there is no need to buy anything to check focus accuracy with a D850, and on the other hand the Nikon method can only check phase detect accuracy with the central AF point.

Actually this is not a target. This is just used to center the lens. Here is how target looks:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/970599-REG/lensalign_la_la2_mkii_focus_calibration_system.html?sts=pi-ps&pim=Y

-- hide signature --

Best regards

 Sagittarius's gear list:Sagittarius's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D500 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm F2.8G IF-ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm F1.4G +4 more
mais51
mais51 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,431
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF
2

I notice that most of the people complaining about AF have never used a manual focus lens in their life - be it film era manual focus lens such as Nikkor AIS or current exotic German manual focus lenses - if they've done they wouldn't be too critical about AF.

 mais51's gear list:mais51's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon 85mm F1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm F1.4G +7 more
JohnnyLuddite Senior Member • Posts: 1,310
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

mais51 wrote:

I notice that most of the people complaining about AF have never used a manual focus lens in their life - be it film era manual focus lens such as Nikkor AIS or current exotic German manual focus lenses - if they've done they wouldn't be too critical about AF.

Personally, particularly with film cameras, manual focus was fine providing you had a bit of time. With a split-screen or other focus screens, you could get a good job; likewise today with the focus assist on ML. Just slow.

I think what's changed is a combination of idiom and tech, so that there is a fashion, at least for some, in wafer-thin depth of field on people, coupled with higher resolution and poring over the pores.

I do understand why people might want to do this for differentiation or selective artistic effect, and to hone their skills and push boundaries. Not for me, and each to their own.

 JohnnyLuddite's gear list:JohnnyLuddite's gear list
Sony RX100 Fujifilm X-E1 Nikon D750 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D +2 more
Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 20,340
Re: Still not happy with the D850 AF

Sagittarius wrote:

Actually this is not a target. This is just used to center the lens. Here is how target looks:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/970599-REG/lensalign_la_la2_mkii_focus_calibration_system.html?sts=pi-ps&pim=Y

Thanks for the extra information.

Even so the target seems to be three edges not one.

Nikon AF up and including 53 AF point can detect an edge outside the viewfinder AF rectangle in AF-S - and well outside the viewfinder rectangle in AF-C.

It is not difficult to get small variations in focus distance depending on which of the edges the AF chooses as the one intended to be the AF subject.

-- hide signature --

Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

 Leonard Shepherd's gear list:Leonard Shepherd's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon Z7 Nikon D500 Nikon D850 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +28 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads