x100v bokeh much less pleasing than x100t? ('restless')

Couldn't resist upgrading from x100t to x100v. Absolutely loving it, there's just one thing I noticed: bokeh looks different... not as nicely round as the x100t's... restless somehow, as if the camera or the background were moving.

Anyone else notice this? Am I doing something wrong?

Uncropped example (1/2000s f/2.0 -- note that the focus is off, only the petals of the lower-left-most flower are in focus):

I might be misremembering this, but my understanding is that the bokeh is compromised on the X100 series if using the leaf shutter at high shutter speeds (which is why it shows as red in the display). Please someone correct me if I have that wrong!

Try activating the inbuilt ND filter and see if you get the same results. To my eyes, I prefer the bokeh & rendering on the X100V lens to that of its predeccesor.

Suspect you used ES on this?

Switch back to using MS with the in-built ND filter as required - switch OFF all options that switch over to ES at higher speeds.

Good question Chris, thanks.

When I playback this photo on my x100v it shows "MS" next to the single white histogram when I hit the up joystick twice. I think that means it fired with the manual shutter.

In the settings, 'Shooting Setting' page 2/3 has 'Shutter Type' on 'MS'.

Are there any other settings that might override this one?

So that's with the mechanical shutter as well right?

I suspect you're spot on -- as I'm perusing my slower photos the bokeh is much nicer. I'll start learning to use the ND filter in bright sunlight.

Thanks!!

jslade797 wrote:

I might be misremembering this, but my understanding is that the bokeh is compromised on the X100 series if using the leaf shutter at high shutter speeds (which is why it shows as red in the display). Please someone correct me if I have that wrong!

Try activating the inbuilt ND filter and see if you get the same results. To my eyes, I prefer the bokeh & rendering on the X100V lens to that of its predeccesor.

Bingo!

This DP Review article explains the phenomenon.

arjunmehta wrote:

jslade797 wrote:

I might be misremembering this, but my understanding is that the bokeh is compromised on the X100 series if using the leaf shutter at high shutter speeds (which is why it shows as red in the display). Please someone correct me if I have that wrong!

Try activating the inbuilt ND filter and see if you get the same results. To my eyes, I prefer the bokeh & rendering on the X100V lens to that of its predeccesor.

Bingo!

This DP Review article explains the phenomenon.

It says: Interestingly this implies that even at 1/1000 sec (the fastest shutter speed allowed in A mode at F2) the shutter blades haven't quite cleared the aperture opening completely. Only at 1/500 sec do we see the full uninterrupted aperture opening.

So would you need to use the ND filter at f2 for any shot requiring more than 1/500sec?

te321 wrote:

Good question Chris, thanks.

When I playback this photo on my x100v it shows "MS" next to the single white histogram when I hit the up joystick twice. I think that means it fired with the manual shutter.

In the settings, 'Shooting Setting' page 2/3 has 'Shutter Type' on 'MS'.

Are there any other settings that might override this one?

if you are truly on MS and not one of the MS + ES modes, then shooting wide open at 1/2000 would be beyond you camera's shutter speed ability due to the limitations of the leaf shutter design.

The leaf shutter cannot cover that large an aperture in that time, leading to the image being overexposed.

In this case you're probably seeing overexposure destroying the smooth bokeh in the image due to clipping.

You need to use the built-in ND filter for wide open shots in bright light. It provides a 4 stop reduction on the V, and keeps the shutter speed within the operational range of the camera without ES, and allows you to expose the image correctly.

You'll know when it's needed as the over exposure warning lights up the aperture/shutter speed in the viewfinder in RED.

As a rule of thumb, anything over 1/1000 with the MS needs ND.

The bokeh on the X100V looks smooth an nice, same as the previous model - just with a sharper lens

Chris Dodkin wrote:

te321 wrote:

Good question Chris, thanks.

When I playback this photo on my x100v it shows "MS" next to the single white histogram when I hit the up joystick twice. I think that means it fired with the manual shutter.

In the settings, 'Shooting Setting' page 2/3 has 'Shutter Type' on 'MS'.

Are there any other settings that might override this one?

if you are truly on MS and not one of the MS + ES modes, then shooting wide open at 1/2000 would be beyond you camera's shutter speed ability due to the limitations of the leaf shutter design.

The leaf shutter cannot cover that large an aperture in that time, leading to the image being overexposed.

In this case you're probably seeing overexposure destroying the smooth bokeh in the image due to clipping.

You need to use the built-in ND filter for wide open shots in bright light. It provides a 4 stop reduction on the V, and keeps the shutter speed within the operational range of the camera without ES, and allows you to expose the image correctly.

You'll know when it's needed as the over exposure warning lights up the aperture/shutter speed in the viewfinder in RED.

As a rule of thumb, anything over 1/1000 with the MS needs ND.

The bokeh on the X100V looks smooth an nice, same as the previous model - just with a sharper lens

Great explanation and a hell of an example.

Chris Dodkin wrote:

if you are truly on MS and not one of the MS + ES modes, then shooting wide open at 1/2000 would be beyond you camera's shutter speed ability due to the limitations of the leaf shutter design.

So, why does X100V manual say MS goes to 1/4000?

The leaf shutter cannot cover that large an aperture in that time, leading to the image being overexposed.

I do not understand this as I can take a photograph using MS at 1/4000 F/2.0 ISO 160:

Per the manual:

R_U_Q_R_U wrote:

Chris Dodkin wrote:

if you are truly on MS and not one of the MS + ES modes, then shooting wide open at 1/2000 would be beyond you camera's shutter speed ability due to the limitations of the leaf shutter design.

So, why does X100V manual say MS goes to 1/4000?

The leaf shutter cannot cover that large an aperture in that time, leading to the image being overexposed.

I do not understand this as I can take a photograph using MS at 1/4000 F/2.0 ISO 160:

Per the manual:

The shutter can do 1/4000 with smaller apertures, but as the aperture size increases, the circular leaf filter cannot physically move fast enough to cover the wide aperture in the time allotted.

This is physically different to the a FPS, where it's aperture independent.

For shutter speeds over 1/2000 Fujifilm use ES to deliver the apparent shutter speed - or you need to use the ND filter to keep shutter speeds low enough to stay 100% MS.

The X100V manual states:

When MECHANICAL SHUTTER is selected, exposure may be less accurate at wider apertures (the maximum shutter speed varies with the aperture, from 1/2000s at f/2 to 1/4000 s at f/4.5). The timing of the switch from MECHANICAL SHUTTER to ELECTRONIC SHUTTER when MECHANICAL + ELECTRONIC is selected also varies with aperture.

Canadianguy wrote:

Just a correction from my prior post - it does appear Fujifilm have redesigned the shutter. The cutoff is now 1/2000 instead of 1/1000 at F2 for the latest V version.

My X100F cuts off at 1/1000 at F2.

http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en/manual/x100v/menu_shooting/shooting_setting/index.html#shutter_type

"When MS MECHANICAL SHUTTER is selected, exposure may be less accurate at wider apertures (the maximum shutter speed varies with the aperture, from 1/2000s at f/2 to 1/4000 s at f/4.5). The timing of the switch from MECHANICAL SHUTTER to ELECTRONIC SHUTTER when uMECHANICAL + ELECTRONIC is selected also varies with aperture."

So the OP was most likely on MS.

The physical shutter is still limited at 1/1000, but I believe Fujifilm are doing an ES hybrid to get to 1/2000, then full ES to get faster than that wide open.

Either way it messes with bokeh and should indicate the the OP that the built-in ND is there for good reason.

They went 4 stop with the ND for the V vs 3 stop on earlier models.

Chris Dodkin wrote:

R_U_Q_R_U wrote:

Chris Dodkin wrote:

if you are truly on MS and not one of the MS + ES modes, then shooting wide open at 1/2000 would be beyond you camera's shutter speed ability due to the limitations of the leaf shutter design.

So, why does X100V manual say MS goes to 1/4000?

The leaf shutter cannot cover that large an aperture in that time, leading to the image being overexposed.

I do not understand this as I can take a photograph using MS at 1/4000 F/2.0 ISO 160:

Per the manual:

The shutter can do 1/4000 with smaller apertures, but as the aperture size increases, the circular leaf filter cannot physically move fast enough to cover the wide aperture in the time allotted.

This is physically different to the a FPS, where it's aperture independent.

For shutter speeds over 1/2000 Fujifilm use ES to deliver the apparent shutter speed - or you need to use the ND filter to keep shutter speeds low enough to stay 100% MS.

The X100V manual states:

When MECHANICAL SHUTTER is selected, exposure may be less accurate at wider apertures (the maximum shutter speed varies with the aperture, from 1/2000s at f/2 to 1/4000 s at f/4.5). The timing of the switch from MECHANICAL SHUTTER to ELECTRONIC SHUTTER when MECHANICAL + ELECTRONIC is selected also varies with aperture.

So when the camera is set to MS and I shoot at 1/4000 F/2 the screen is not showing accurate information? This is what confuses me. It is switching to ES even when set to MS only? The way I read the manual is that if set to MS ONLY the screen is not accurate. It is still shooting MS only and maxing out at 1/2000 but showing 1/4000 on the screen.

R_U_Q_R_U wrote:

So when the camera is set to MS and I shoot at 1/4000 F/2 the screen is not showing accurate information? This is what confuses me. It is switching to ES even when set to MS only?

Here's my X100V on MS only - aperture priority mode, at f/2.

You see I get a warning that I need to use the ND, the max shutter speed 1/2000 is shown in RED.

Chris Dodkin wrote:

R_U_Q_R_U wrote:

So when the camera is set to MS and I shoot at 1/4000 F/2 the screen is not showing accurate information? This is what confuses me. It is switching to ES even when set to MS only?

Here's my X100V on MS only - aperture priority mode, at f/2.

You see I get a warning that I need to use the ND, the max shutter speed 1/2000 is shown in RED.

OK, I was shooting in M mode. So would it be the same problem? In manual my camera shows 1/4000 as shown above.

R_U_Q_R_U wrote:

Chris Dodkin wrote:

R_U_Q_R_U wrote:

So when the camera is set to MS and I shoot at 1/4000 F/2 the screen is not showing accurate information? This is what confuses me. It is switching to ES even when set to MS only?

Here's my X100V on MS only - aperture priority mode, at f/2.

You see I get a warning that I need to use the ND, the max shutter speed 1/2000 is shown in RED.

OK, I was shooting in M mode. So would it be the same problem? In manual my camera shows 1/4000 as shown above.

You can't beat physics - the shutter just physically can't move that fast at wide apertures because of the leaf design.

You see that Hasselblad lenses (with built-in leaf shutters) have historically always been slow lenses - they just couldn't use wide open apertures, even if they had them, shooting in normal daylight. Not without adding an ND filter of course.

So the camera is saving you from an overexposed image in your case by using a hybrid shutter mode in the background.

Chris Dodkin wrote:

R_U_Q_R_U wrote:

Chris Dodkin wrote:

R_U_Q_R_U wrote:

So when the camera is set to MS and I shoot at 1/4000 F/2 the screen is not showing accurate information? This is what confuses me. It is switching to ES even when set to MS only?

Here's my X100V on MS only - aperture priority mode, at f/2.

You see I get a warning that I need to use the ND, the max shutter speed 1/2000 is shown in RED.

OK, I was shooting in M mode. So would it be the same problem? In manual my camera shows 1/4000 as shown above.

You can't beat physics - the shutter just physically can't move that fast at wide apertures because of the leaf design.

You see that Hasselblad lenses (with built-in leaf shutters) have historically always been slow lenses - they just couldn't use wide open apertures, even if they had them, shooting in normal daylight. Not without adding an ND filter of course.

So the camera is saving you from an overexposed image in your case by using a hybrid shutter mode in the background.

Understood, but it seems a display bug that it is not showing the red 1/2000 instead of 1/4000 in manual mode.

R_U_Q_R_U wrote:

Understood, but it seems a display bug that it is not showing the red 1/2000 instead of 1/4000 in manual mode.

Agree 100%

This dirty little secret of leaf shutters it not well known - the focus tends to be on how amazing they are for sync with flash at any speed.

Again, that's probably historical marketing from manufacturers who wanted to promote the benefits, and not mention possible limitations