Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?

Started 2 months ago | Questions
JFishburn Forum Member • Posts: 55
Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?
1

Pretty proud of my results for my first macro session. Used a D5600 and an Oshiro 60mm 2:1 f2.8. It was only $100 brand new IIRC. Highly recommend it.

Anyway my question is, can I achieve this kind of frame filling, highly detailed 2:1 with a longer lens or some contraption (like extension tubes?) that will give me a longer effective focal length?

I love the detailed shots but I'd like to take the same kind of shots with hornets and things- maybe even vermin/rodent eyes- speaking of- it's been impossible this far to get cat eye closeups since they're so squirmy. Apart from spooky scary stingy insects posing a concern and insects that get spooked easily, it's also harder to control lighting what with how close I need to get or sometimes completely covering the subject.

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Nikon D5600
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John K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,649
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?
1

JFishburn wrote:

Pretty proud of my results for my first macro session. Used a D5600 and an Oshiro 60mm 2:1 f2.8. It was only $100 brand new IIRC. Highly recommend it.

Anyway my question is, can I achieve this kind of frame filling, highly detailed 2:1 with a longer lens or some contraption (like extension tubes?) that will give me a longer effective focal length?

I love the detailed shots but I'd like to take the same kind of shots with hornets and things- maybe even vermin/rodent eyes- speaking of- it's been impossible this far to get cat eye closeups since they're so squirmy. Apart from spooky scary stingy insects posing a concern and insects that get spooked easily, it's also harder to control lighting what with how close I need to get or sometimes completely covering the subject.

The short answer is maybe. A teleconverter will increase the magnification without dropping the working distance, so at the same 2x mag you'll get a little more reach, but it's not going to be enough of a gain in working distance to really help.

You could also shoot at a lower mag and crop, or use a camera that has a smaller sensor (so that it's cropping the image circle that the lens is projecting). It's not the same as actually shooting at 2x though (cropping an image does not change the magnification).

Learn the habits and quirks of the critters you want to photograph and it will be easier to get the images that you want.

What you really need is to get your flash out toward the end of the lens so it's easier to light the scenes you want to shoot. I took this one at about 2x with a diffused macro twin flash. But a standard camera flash on a bracket will work really well.

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F11, 1/250, ISO 200) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (set to roughly 2x) + a diffused MT-26EX RT (E-TTL metering). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held.

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BBbuilder467 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,573
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?

John K wrote:

JFishburn wrote:

Pretty proud of my results for my first macro session. Used a D5600 and an Oshiro 60mm 2:1 f2.8. It was only $100 brand new IIRC. Highly recommend it.

Anyway my question is, can I achieve this kind of frame filling, highly detailed 2:1 with a longer lens or some contraption (like extension tubes?) that will give me a longer effective focal length?

I love the detailed shots but I'd like to take the same kind of shots with hornets and things- maybe even vermin/rodent eyes- speaking of- it's been impossible this far to get cat eye closeups since they're so squirmy. Apart from spooky scary stingy insects posing a concern and insects that get spooked easily, it's also harder to control lighting what with how close I need to get or sometimes completely covering the subject.

The short answer is maybe. A teleconverter will increase the magnification without dropping the working distance, so at the same 2x mag you'll get a little more reach, but it's not going to be enough of a gain in working distance to really help.

You could also shoot at a lower mag and crop, or use a camera that has a smaller sensor (so that it's cropping the image circle that the lens is projecting). It's not the same as actually shooting at 2x though (cropping an image does not change the magnification).

Learn the habits and quirks of the critters you want to photograph and it will be easier to get the images that you want.

What you really need is to get your flash out toward the end of the lens so it's easier to light the scenes you want to shoot. I took this one at about 2x with a diffused macro twin flash. But a standard camera flash on a bracket will work really well.

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F11, 1/250, ISO 200) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (set to roughly 2x) + a diffused MT-26EX RT (E-TTL metering). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held.

If he used a +2 diopter, wouldn't he get the 2:1 from @20" to the lens? I can't remember how that worked. I used a +1 for some reason. I think I got the same magnification from farther away.

John K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,649
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?

BBbuilder467 wrote:

John K wrote:

JFishburn wrote:

Pretty proud of my results for my first macro session. Used a D5600 and an Oshiro 60mm 2:1 f2.8. It was only $100 brand new IIRC. Highly recommend it.

Anyway my question is, can I achieve this kind of frame filling, highly detailed 2:1 with a longer lens or some contraption (like extension tubes?) that will give me a longer effective focal length?

I love the detailed shots but I'd like to take the same kind of shots with hornets and things- maybe even vermin/rodent eyes- speaking of- it's been impossible this far to get cat eye closeups since they're so squirmy. Apart from spooky scary stingy insects posing a concern and insects that get spooked easily, it's also harder to control lighting what with how close I need to get or sometimes completely covering the subject.

The short answer is maybe. A teleconverter will increase the magnification without dropping the working distance, so at the same 2x mag you'll get a little more reach, but it's not going to be enough of a gain in working distance to really help.

You could also shoot at a lower mag and crop, or use a camera that has a smaller sensor (so that it's cropping the image circle that the lens is projecting). It's not the same as actually shooting at 2x though (cropping an image does not change the magnification).

Learn the habits and quirks of the critters you want to photograph and it will be easier to get the images that you want.

What you really need is to get your flash out toward the end of the lens so it's easier to light the scenes you want to shoot. I took this one at about 2x with a diffused macro twin flash. But a standard camera flash on a bracket will work really well.

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F11, 1/250, ISO 200) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (set to roughly 2x) + a diffused MT-26EX RT (E-TTL metering). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held.

If he used a +2 diopter, wouldn't he get the 2:1 from @20" to the lens? I can't remember how that worked. I used a +1 for some reason. I think I got the same magnification from farther away.

A 20" working distance would be pretty amazing @ 2x. The down side is trying to get good light at that distance. If the natural light is well diffused then you'd need a tripod and focusing rail (won't be enough good light to hand hold the gear). If using a flash you'd either have to have a really large diffuser, or you'd have to get the flash/diffuser out past the lens close to the subject and the gain in working distance is kinda useless. Always trade offs...

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Always minimal post processing and no cropping -unless you count the viewfinder...

OP JFishburn Forum Member • Posts: 55
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?

No harm in trying a TC. Thanks for the advice. As of right now I only have an on camera flash. No ring or off camera flashes or diffusion gear yet. Awesome pic by the way!

John K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,649
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?

JFishburn wrote:

No harm in trying a TC. Thanks for the advice. As of right now I only have an on camera flash. No ring or off camera flashes or diffusion gear yet. Awesome pic by the way!

Thanks! 14 years shooting macro, 13 of that with the MP-E. Plus I'm constantly working on my lighting. I don't show you all of the frames I delete...

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Also known as Dalantech
My Book: http://nocroppingzone.blogspot.com/2010/01/extreme-macro-art-of-patience.html
My Blog: http://www.extrememacro.com
My gallery: http://www.johnkimbler.com
Macro Tutorials: http://dalantech.deviantart.com/gallery/4122501/Tutorials
Always minimal post processing and no cropping -unless you count the viewfinder...

gardenersassistant Veteran Member • Posts: 7,686
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?
1

I have recently been experimenting with a 2X teleconverter on a Laowa 100mm 2X macro lens. This gives a working distance of around 90mm at 2:1 and around 70mm at 4:1.

With a Raynox 250 on a 55-250 at 250mm on a Canon APS-C 70D I get a maximum magnification of around 1.9X with a working distance of around 120mm.

With a Raynox 250 on a small sensor FZ330 bridge camera, at maximum magnification I get a scene height which would need 2.5X magnification on the 70D, with a working distance of around 120mm.

The first four of these were captured with a 2X teleconverter on the Laowa 100 2X macro lens on a Sony A7ii. The last two used a 2X teleconverter with a Sigma 105 1X macro lens on the A7ii.

Michael Benveniste
Michael Benveniste Veteran Member • Posts: 5,198
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?

With the gear I own, the first thing I’d try is a Sigma 100-400mm with a Marumi 200 DHG close up lens.  That would yield 2x at a working distance of over 320mm, but I would expect to have to live with some optical compromises.

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gardenersassistant Veteran Member • Posts: 7,686
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?

Michael Benveniste wrote:

With the gear I own, the first thing I’d try is a Sigma 100-400mm with a Marumi 200 DHG close up lens. That would yield 2x at a working distance of over 320mm, but I would expect to have to live with some optical compromises.

I'm curious about these numbers.

The Marumi 200 is +5 diopters and has a maximum working distance of around 200mm. Are you thinking of the +3 diopters Marumi 330 in terms of its around 330mm maximum working distance (which unlike the Marumi 200 at 400mm would of course not get to 2X magnification)?

I don't know if it differs for different sizes of Marumi 200, but I have to say that two different 52mm Marumi 200s that I tested gave poor results compared to a Raynox 150. The Marumi 330 was pretty good though. (I got a similar difference between a 58mm Canon 500D, which was very good, and two different 58mm Canon 250Ds, which gave poor results.)

DavesPainStream
DavesPainStream New Member • Posts: 1
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?

What type of teleconverter are you using ? I had thought about trying this out as a test on my 80mm modified macro lens 2:1 macro and also my 100mm canon L macro lens but could have sworn seeing somewhere that it said the canon 100mm L macro will not work with a teleconverter

gardenersassistant Veteran Member • Posts: 7,686
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?

DavesPainStream wrote:

What type of teleconverter are you using ? I had thought about trying this out as a test on my 80mm modified macro lens 2:1 macro and also my 100mm canon L macro lens but could have sworn seeing somewhere that it said the canon 100mm L macro will not work with a teleconverter

I am using a Kenko C-AF 2X TelePlus Pro 300 teleconverter. (I have the EF mount version of the Laowa 100mm 2X macro, and the teleconverter is also EF mount, and is connected to the Sony A7ii with a Sigma MC-11 EF-E adapter. Information passes correctly from the lens and teleconverter to the camera - the Laowa 100mm 2X is f/2.8 to f/22. Mounted with the 2X teleconverter it operates and shows in the EXIF data as expected as 200mm, f/5.6 to f/45.

This compatibility chart from Canon shows the 100L macro as not compatible with Canon's own teleconverters (its Extenders).

The chart also shows the Canon MPE-65 as not compatible with Canon's Extenders. The MPE-65 is compatible with the Kenko teleconverters I am using. Just to be sure I mounted the MPE-65 on a Kenko C-AF 1.4X Teleplus Pro 300 teleconverter. It operates and shows in the EXIF data as expected as 91mm f/4 to f/22.

These Kenko teleconverters work as expected with my Laowa 25mm 2.5-5X macro lens and Meike 85mm 1.5X macro lens (nothing in the EXIF data in these cases as the lenses have no data connections) and with the Sigma 105mm DG Macro HSM (natively 105mm, f/2.8 to f/22, with the Kenko 1.4X teleconverter it operates and shows in the EXIF data as expected as 147mm, f/4 to f/32, and autofocus works.

I'm afraid I don't have a Canon 100mm L Macro and so I don't know whether it would work or not with the Kenko teleconverters. However, given that these other lenses do work, I think perhaps it might, especially given that the MPE-65 works. But that is only a guess.

Michael Benveniste
Michael Benveniste Veteran Member • Posts: 5,198
Re: Is it possible to get the same 2:1 magnification with a longer working distance?

gardenersassistant wrote:

Michael Benveniste wrote:

With the gear I own, the first thing I’d try is a Sigma 100-400mm with a Marumi 200 DHG close up lens. That would yield 2x at a working distance of over 320mm, but I would expect to have to live with some optical compromises.

I'm curious about these numbers.

The Marumi 200 is +5 diopters and has a maximum working distance of around 200mm. Are you thinking of the +3 diopters Marumi 330 in terms of its around 330mm maximum working distance (which unlike the Marumi 200 at 400mm would of course not get to 2X magnification)?

You're right -- it looks like I used the wrong length for the base lens. Instead of relying on calculations, I just hung it on my copystand and measured 195mm.

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