4K HQ = 8K Locked

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jonpais
jonpais Senior Member • Posts: 2,926
4K HQ = 8K

Nearly impossible to tell the difference between 8K and oversampled 4K HQ. Save some hard drive space and shoot 4K HQ 170Mbps rather than 8K 680Mbps.

Armando Ferreira (@mondobytes) tweeted:This how AMAZING the 4K HQ Mode is on the EOS R5. You’re getting the benefits of 8K without the crazy file sizes and crazy CPU Processing for your editing machine. It is so damn sharp and detailed that I hope Twitter compression doesn’t kill it. Either way you’ll see in my review https://t.co/kcwY0abvpt

https://twitter.com/mondobytes/status/1285816694984765440?s=20

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janez Contributing Member • Posts: 555
Re: 4K HQ = 8K

jonpais wrote:

Nearly impossible to tell the difference between 8K and oversampled 4K HQ. Save some hard drive space and shoot 4K HQ 170Mbps rather than 8K 680Mbps.

Armando Ferreira (@mondobytes) tweeted:This how AMAZING the 4K HQ Mode is on the EOS R5. You’re getting the benefits of 8K without the crazy file sizes and crazy CPU Processing for your editing machine. It is so damn sharp and detailed that I hope Twitter compression doesn’t kill it. Either way you’ll see in my review https://t.co/kcwY0abvpt

https://twitter.com/mondobytes/status/1285816694984765440?s=20

Which monitor do you use?

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(unknown member) Regular Member • Posts: 376
"The image quality is gorgeous"

There’s no question about the image quality of the R5 8K and 4K HQ modes. The image quality is gorgeous.

I think you nailed it your other thread.

Remember too 4K HQ is 8K video downsampled to 4K by the powerful R5 processor. It might just do a better job than some 4K's can do trying to downsample to 4K.

But the 8K RAW's real benefit is full dynamic range of the sensor, not limited by 10 bit 4:2:2 or some profile. The R5 is one of the few cameras that can shoot RAW internally!

No matter what, as you keep saying, the R5 4K HQ and 8K "image quality is gorgeous."

jonpais
OP jonpais Senior Member • Posts: 2,926
Re: 4K HQ = 8K

A double blind study by Warner Brothers showed that most consumers can't tell the difference between 4K and 8K. Fun fact: most Hollywood movies are finished in 2K.

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Lawn Lends
Lawn Lends Senior Member • Posts: 2,374
Re: 4K HQ = 8K

jonpais wrote:

Nearly impossible to tell the difference between 8K and oversampled 4K HQ. Save some hard drive space and shoot 4K HQ 170Mbps rather than 8K 680Mbps.

Armando Ferreira (@mondobytes) tweeted:This how AMAZING the 4K HQ Mode is on the EOS R5. You’re getting the benefits of 8K without the crazy file sizes and crazy CPU Processing for your editing machine. It is so damn sharp and detailed that I hope Twitter compression doesn’t kill it. Either way you’ll see in my review https://t.co/kcwY0abvpt

https://twitter.com/mondobytes/status/1285816694984765440?s=20

I am not a video person, but I do use video once in a while.

Other than storage space, what is the advantage of downsampling 8k in camera rather than in post?

Wouldnt it create more heat in camera to process 8k into 4k HQ rather than just save it to a memory card as 8k?

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lawny13 Senior Member • Posts: 2,976
Re: 4K HQ = 8K

Lawn Lends wrote:

jonpais wrote:

Nearly impossible to tell the difference between 8K and oversampled 4K HQ. Save some hard drive space and shoot 4K HQ 170Mbps rather than 8K 680Mbps.

Armando Ferreira (@mondobytes) tweeted:This how AMAZING the 4K HQ Mode is on the EOS R5. You’re getting the benefits of 8K without the crazy file sizes and crazy CPU Processing for your editing machine. It is so damn sharp and detailed that I hope Twitter compression doesn’t kill it. Either way you’ll see in my review https://t.co/kcwY0abvpt

https://twitter.com/mondobytes/status/1285816694984765440?s=20

I am not a video person, but I do use video once in a while.

Other than storage space, what is the advantage of downsampling 8k in camera rather than in post?

Wouldnt it create more heat in camera to process 8k into 4k HQ rather than just save it to a memory card as 8k?

Well for starters 50 minutes of 8k adds up to 1TB in the R5. So you would need some pretty expensive and massive cards to deal within storing it in the first place.

And some people have found their computers and software have issues opening and dealing with such massive video files.

(unknown member) Regular Member • Posts: 376
The VERY noticeable difference between 8K and 4K

jonpais wrote:

A double blind study by Warner Brothers showed that most consumers can't tell the difference between 4K and 8K. Fun fact: most Hollywood movies are finished in 2K.

8K vs 4K isn't always about resolution. 8k has more color and looks better.

https://nofilmschool.com/2018/02/beauty-8k-large-format

I was at Best Buy last week checking out their 8K TV display. They had a nice demo and you really could see the difference between 4K and 8K. I've seen studies liek you mentioned, they either used 4K TVs or you had to stand a good distance away.

Anyway, like we talked about before 8K is so much more useful. You can crop, create digital zooms and panning, re-frame scenes, etc.

Also, I just read this about resolution. Its fascinating

Let say you want to shoot in 1.85:1. A basic 4K camera from some companies only can shoot 3840x2160 with no oversampling. The resulting 1.85:1 video would end up 3840x2075. soft with no over sampling,.

The R5 HQ 4K would be 4096x2215 for 1.85:1

The R5 8K would be 8196x4428

Which will look better on that new 8K TV?

  • 3840x2075 (not over sampled)
  • 4096x2215 (over sampled)
  • 8196x4428

The R5 RAW 8K has 4.5x more resolution!

Before considering the oversampling benefits, the R5 4K HQ has 14% more resolution!

These are very noticeable differences.

AlexKalimat
AlexKalimat Forum Member • Posts: 95
Re: 4K HQ = 8K

jonpais wrote:

A double blind study by Warner Brothers showed that most consumers can't tell the difference between 4K and 8K. Fun fact: most Hollywood movies are finished in 2K.

I read a few different studies on this. Generally it seems that at most “normal” viewing distances for typical screen sizes, the majority people cannot perceive any increase in resolution above about 3K.

There are exceptions to this — gamers sit quite close, and in movie theatres you have quite a range of viewing distances. But generally 4K should cover bases (at least for delivery).

But dynamic range is frame rate are probably more important to improve than resolution.

(unknown member) Regular Member • Posts: 376
8K > 4K

The OP talked before about how their are many benefits of creating 4K video with 8K, you can crop, create digital zooms and panning, re-frame scenes, etc.

For viewing,  we also know its not just about resolution.

3 Benefits of 8K That Have Nothing to Do with Image Dimensions

If you have the time watch this video that explains why 8K > 4k. .

jonpais
OP jonpais Senior Member • Posts: 2,926
Re: 4K HQ = 8K

I’ve said repeatedly in these forums that there are benefits to shooting 8K, but for now, most of them have to do with flexibility in post. All of the desirable image characteristics of 8K are scalable, meaning they are perceived regardless of the resolution of the display.

As of today, 8K is primarily an acquisition format, not a delivery format. That will change eventually, but we are a long way off. I am sure I could not tell the difference between upscaled 4K and 8K any more than Armando could. As for Netflix:

"The future of TV is in better pixels, not just more of them," Neil Hunt, Netflix's Chief Product Officer, said speaking with Digital Spy.

On this front, and with the benefits of cramming more pixels into the same size panel almost undetectable to the human eye, he added: "8K is only interesting if you're going to sit too close to the TV."

The philosophy of the visionaries at Netflix is nearly identical to that of one of the most respected names in filmmaking, Arri. They both also happen to embrace HDR for its incomparably greater contribution to image quality than 8K.

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AlexKalimat
AlexKalimat Forum Member • Posts: 95
Re: 8K > 4K

Willow w wrote:

The OP talked before about how their are many benefits of creating 4K video with 8K, you can crop, create digital zooms and panning, re-frame scenes, etc.

For viewing, we also know its not just about resolution.

3 Benefits of 8K That Have Nothing to Do with Image Dimensions

If you have the time watch this video that explains why 8K > 4k. .

Thank you for sharing. The NoFilmSchool article is more opinion than science. And despite them titling the article being not about image dimensions, two of the points they make ARE about dimensions (because resolution and dimensions are can’t exist without each other).

However, I totally agree that extra resolution provides post flexibility. I use this all the time in my HD delivery! Shoot in 4K and you have both a mid-shot and a close-up (as long as you don’t have too much lens distortion and you’re not punching in to the edge of frame). Given that somewhere between 2 and 4K satisfies 99% of viewers, I wonder if 6K is the sweet spot (currently) between practicality and creative benefits.

Certainly from a resolution point of view the R5 has plenty!

jonpais
OP jonpais Senior Member • Posts: 2,926
Re: The VERY noticeable difference between 8K and 4K

Willow w wrote:

jonpais wrote:

A double blind study by Warner Brothers showed that most consumers can't tell the difference between 4K and 8K. Fun fact: most Hollywood movies are finished in 2K.

8K vs 4K isn't always about resolution. 8k has more color and looks better.

The number of Ks is not directly linked to viewers' perception of image quality and not necessarily that of sharpness either, for that matter.

http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/ResDemoPt1.html

All of the desirable benefits of 8K are scalable, meaning that no matter the resolution of the display, the characteristics will still be visible.

https://nofilmschool.com/2018/02/beauty-8k-large-format

I was at Best Buy last week checking out their 8K TV display. They had a nice demo and you really could see the difference between 4K and 8K. I've seen studies liek you mentioned, they either used 4K TVs or you had to stand a good distance away.

Anyway, like we talked about before 8K is so much more useful. You can crop, create digital zooms and panning, re-frame scenes, etc.

It is useful if you do an enormous amount of cropping, zooming, reframing, distortion correction and stabilization in post. As of today, the chief benefit of more Ks is in acquisition, not delivery. The overwhelming majority of Hollywood films are finished in 2K!

Also, I just read this about resolution. Its fascinating

Let say you want to shoot in 1.85:1. A basic 4K camera from some companies only can shoot 3840x2160 with no oversampling. The resulting 1.85:1 video would end up 3840x2075. soft with no over sampling,.

The R5 HQ 4K would be 4096x2215 for 1.85:1

The R5 8K would be 8196x4428

Which will look better on that new 8K TV?

  • 3840x2075 (not over sampled)
  • 4096x2215 (over sampled)
  • 8196x4428

The R5 RAW 8K has 4.5x more resolution!

In fact, after demosaicing, which tosses away as much as 33% of the resolution, the resulting image is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5.65K, which can be comfortably watched on Apple's Pro Display XDR. Any camera movement in the 8K image results in a decrease of up to four times the resolution.

The number of Ks is much less important than dynamic range, rolling shutter, low light sensitivity, latitude in post, and most importantly, usability.

Before considering the oversampling benefits, the R5 4K HQ has 14% more resolution!

The benefits are trivial, the drawbacks, enormous!

Visionary streaming service Netflix, one of the world's largest entertainment services with nearly 200 million subscribers:

“The future of TV is in better pixels, not just more of them,” Neil Hunt, Netflix’s Chief Product Officer, said speaking with Digital Spy.

On this front, and with the benefits of cramming more pixels into the same size panel almost undetectable to the human eye, he added: “8K is only interesting if you’re going to sit too close to the TV.”

Along with Arri, the most respected name in cinema cameras, who also believe in better pixels, not more, Netflix acknowledges that HDR, not 8K, is the most significant development in picture quality of our lifetime.

And unlike 8K, HDR is possible with any mirrorless camera that shoots 10-bit log, requires no extra storage or processing power and can be viewed on many phones, laptops, tablets and televisions already in people's homes.

These are very noticeable differences.

Again, acquiring and processing C RAW 8K is so costly, tedious and time-consuming that it's too soon to say it's worthwhile. Next to no computers today have the dedicated hardware decoding necessary to even play it back, and transcoding will take ages. Most 8K content is on YouTube and few of us can even play it on our computers, either because they aren't powerful enough, the Internet's too slow or both. Many complained of this in the comments section of Tony Northrup's review.

As far as paid work goes, a great deal of which is shared on social media platforms or video sharing platforms like YouTube, consultants advise distributing in 1080p because if the advertising takes too long to buffer or doesn't play back smoothly, consumers won't bother watching it.

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Tambopata Forum Member • Posts: 94
Re: 4K HQ = 8K

jonpais wrote:

As for Netflix:

"The future of TV is in better pixels, not just more of them," Neil Hunt, Netflix's Chief Product Officer, said speaking with Digital Spy.

On this front, and with the benefits of cramming more pixels into the same size panel almost undetectable to the human eye, he added: "8K is only interesting if you're going to sit too close to the TV."

Better pixels are always good, and as you've mentioned HDR for example is making video better without adding larger files.

Netflix and other similar streaming-services want a smooth user experience for everybody. Even today they all use highly optimized encoding to keep their bandwidth requirements low. By adding 8K the required bandwidth will probably increase dramatically, and cutting off plenty of users worldwide.

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jonpais
OP jonpais Senior Member • Posts: 2,926
Re: 4K HQ = 8K

Tambopata wrote:

jonpais wrote:

As for Netflix:

"The future of TV is in better pixels, not just more of them," Neil Hunt, Netflix's Chief Product Officer, said speaking with Digital Spy.

On this front, and with the benefits of cramming more pixels into the same size panel almost undetectable to the human eye, he added: "8K is only interesting if you're going to sit too close to the TV."

Better pixels are always good, and as you've mentioned HDR for example is making video better without adding larger files.

Netflix and other similar streaming-services want a smooth user experience for everybody. Even today they all use highly optimized encoding to keep their bandwidth requirements low. By adding 8K the required bandwidth will probably increase dramatically, and cutting off plenty of users worldwide.

Both interesting and frustrating that not a single reviewer has commented on or uploaded a sample of the R5 or R6 's HDR PQ.

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(unknown member) Regular Member • Posts: 376
8K= Better 4K pixels too

Don't forget 8K means better 4K pixels.

8K 4:2:2 can create 4K 4:4:4.  4 pixels in to one creates better color and better detail.

jonpais
OP jonpais Senior Member • Posts: 2,926
Re: 8K= Better 4K pixels too

Willow w wrote:

Don't forget 8K means better 4K pixels.

8K 4:2:2 can create 4K 4:4:4. 4 pixels in to one creates better color and better detail.

Yes. Oversampling also improves S/N, increases detail and reduces artifacts. And a bunch of other esoteric stuff. 😊

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Alexsfo Senior Member • Posts: 2,357
Re: 4K HQ = 8K

jonpais wrote:

A double blind study by Warner Brothers showed that most consumers can't tell the difference between 4K and 8K. Fun fact: most Hollywood movies are finished in 2K.

but they are not shot in 2k, and that’s the most important part. There is massive difference between newer netflix titles shot in 8k and downsampled vs older 1080p only titles. 30MP photo downsampled to 1080p will always look more detailed than an image captured in 1080p, not to mention low light performance.

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jonpais
OP jonpais Senior Member • Posts: 2,926
Re: 4K HQ = 8K

Alexsfo wrote:

jonpais wrote:

A double blind study by Warner Brothers showed that most consumers can't tell the difference between 4K and 8K. Fun fact: most Hollywood movies are finished in 2K.

but they are not shot in 2k, and that’s the most important part. There is massive difference between newer netflix titles shot in 8k and downsampled vs older 1080p only titles. 30MP photo downsampled to 1080p will always look more detailed than an image captured in 1080p, not to mention low light performance.

Correct. Here's an interesting article on how theaters have been falling behind home cinema.

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(unknown member) Regular Member • Posts: 376
Re: The VERY noticeable difference between 8K and 4K

jonpais wrote:

All of the desirable benefits of 8K are scalable, meaning that no matter the resolution of the display, the characteristics will still be visible.

Excellent point. And the same point alexsfo and many here are making, Even if the goal is only 2K or 4K, starting with 8K is a better option than a lower resolution. Because, "no matter the resolution of the display, the characteristics [of 8k] will still be visible."

As you said before "Oversampling also improves S/N, increases detail and reduces artifacts." to go along with smoothing edges, and improving color (8K 4:2:0 for example converts to 4K 4:4:4)

These days many movie and video productions are shot in higher resolutions because of the advantages.  Avengers: Endgame was shot on ARRI Alexa 65 at 6.5K for example.  TVs series like "The Morning show" are filmed in 8K RAW (Panavision Millennium DXL2) for 4K delivery.

A lot of TV shows on Apple, Amazon and Netflix are shot at 8K these days.   It is the new standard.

(unknown member) Regular Member • Posts: 376
6.5K to 8K the new standard.

jonpais wrote:

Willow w wrote:

Don't forget 8K means better 4K pixels.

8K 4:2:2 can create 4K 4:4:4. 4 pixels in to one creates better color and better detail.

Yes. Oversampling also improves S/N, increases detail and reduces artifacts. And a bunch of other esoteric stuff. 😊

I posted above, this is why TV and blockbuster movies frequently are filmed in everything from 6.5K to 8K RAW these days.

The Aeronauts, Dolemite is My Name, Hustlers, Two Popes, are a just few movies shot in 8K. Many more were shot in 6.5K. Even Parasite the Best Picture winner was shot in 6.5K.

Award willing TV shows like "The Morning Show" are also shot in 8K RAW.

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